Celtics, How Good are they Really?

cowens/oldschool wrote:I’d give Williams 12-15 minutes every game, 20 or more against teams with an Embid/Davis type.

I agree as long as he is working hard and learning. Just his presence around the rim on both ends improves our team. So easy to throw the ball up and let him go get it for a dunk. I am sure he already has a reputation of someone that will throw it back in your face. The speed he adds to our team is a asset as well. This is the type of center teams are using now, we have a good one and need speed up his development. (just like Brown, Tatum, and Rozier) Only so many can play so I don't know how we can't make some kind of move.

cowens/oldschool wrote:I’d give Williams 12-15 minutes every game, 20 or more against teams with an Embid/Davis type.

It's tough to get adequate minutes for players. Horford, Theis, Baines, Williams, all deserve minutes but are basically all competing over the same 48. Stevens hasn't used Horford or Theis much at PF this year where there's also a logjam of minutes. I'd like them to take some physical pressure off of Horford and Theis.

After another disappointing loss the question remains unanswered.

The Celtics continue to search for some measure of consistency.

Next game at Brooklyn is another trap game.

I love the way we played against the Mavs and Pacers, then this. Right now this team has a lot of issues on the road, Hayward just when you think he’s turning the corner reverts back to ineffective GH, Rozier has so many terrible games, Tatum been more off then on lately...just never know who’s going to show up and which team is gonna show up.

KyleCleric wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:I’d give Williams 12-15 minutes every game, 20 or more against teams with an Embid/Davis type.

It's tough to get adequate minutes for players. Horford, Theis, Baines, Williams, all deserve minutes but are basically all competing over the same 48. Stevens hasn't used Horford or Theis much at PF this year where there's also a logjam of minutes. I'd like them to take some physical pressure off of Horford and Theis.

I agree would like to see more minutes at PF for Al and Theis, that’s why I don’t see Morris coming back, less offense and more rebounding and defense is a better direction IMHO.

Last night the Celtics were who we hoped they would be.  A team that played together all night and a team with an elite player that can win a game against the best that the NBA has to offer.

Can they build on last night's win?   Let's hope so.  However even if they play up to their potential it will be very difficult to close the gap in the East.  They are a better team than Philly and Indiana but I do not expect to see the Bucks or the Raptors take a swan dive.

Right now Boston is fighting for home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs.  That means they have to finish 3rd or 4th.

If they plan to go deep into the playoffs they will have to do it on the road at some point unless the Bucks or Raptors get knocked off early.  I think they can catch both Philly and Indiana but that will only happen if Boston keeps winning and those teams falter

Well put dboss. I've said in another thread this team has more than enough talent (Terry Rozier's thread) to go 16-0 in the playoffs for at least 2 seasons. If they play like last night, they will. No question.

db

DB

One big factor in all of this is how so many teams have improved relative to Boston.  No one is sitting still and most teams are now trying to play the same style as GSW.  Celts could separate themselves from the hoard at the defensive end of the floor.

I have a high level of confidence 1-3 but I remain somewhat skeptical on our frontcourt.  

The season is flying by.

I am no closer to answering this question than I was when I stared this thread. As this season has progressed I think my glass is half empty which means I am leaning more to the pessimistic side of the equation.  But I'll be rooting and hoping for this team to win no matter what.

A while back I argued vociferously with a poster who was excommunication from this forum for various comments.  But I have to admit that he may have been spot on about something.  His belief was that the Celtics needed to pair down some of that depth and upgrade the roster with a another star. I argued that the depth on the Celtics roster was a strength and that strength would allow them to compete with any team.

As it turns out I think both of us were right and both of us were wrong.

The Celtics have too many players taking too many shots.  All of the really good teams rely on 3 guys and maybe a 4th to carry their offense and those guys all play big minutes.  The result is continuity and consistency.  Those guys are the volume shooters on their respective teams.

This idea supports the reason why Boston should make a deal for Anthony Davis.  It is better to have 3 elite players on a team than 6 good ones and one elite guy (Irving) Ask GSW.

You have to have elite talent to win.  We do not have enough elite talent to win.  We have more than enough talent to compete but that is not the same thing as winning.

One thing seems like a sure bet.   FA will do the paring down for us with both Terry Rozier and Marcus Morris heading out the door.  

Danny will trade some young talent and picks if Davis become obtainable.  Danny will have draft options one way or another.  With or without Davis the configuration of this team has to be changed.  

This year only serves to remind us that no team wins on paper. The talent on this roster is essentially being diluted because too few minutes are having to be shared among too many players.

Dboss are you basing this on one game, the last game?

PP, KG. RA and supporting cast were a championship team. Concentrated talent with Rondo+ as backup. A good plan.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss are you basing this on one game, the last game?

I have actually been thinking about this since before the season began.  But I needed to see how the season played out.  There are not enough minutes to go around based on the depth.  It would be better to pair down the depth a bit and in the process upgrade the high end talent on this team.  Last night's game could be viewed that way.  But the Celtics should have won regardless.

I am looking at this overall.  It seems to be that coach Stevens is an analytics driven coach.  He is trying to find the right rotations and he is trying to divide up minutes accordingly yet he is slow to react to obvious trends from his team.  I am not sure he can manage all of the options.  I am not sure he can find the optimum balance.  Last year's season ending injuries left him with few options.  

Anyways the single biggest reason why I do not see #18 this year is because of our frontline.  I think all the better teams also have what we have plus better frontlines.

In other words there are problems with the rotation but I do not believe we have enough quality talent at 4 and 5 to win.

We are a month removed from my last comments about this team.

I can honestly say without hesitation that they are not that good.  I really do not need to watch anymore games to figure that out.

Boston has dropped 6 of their last 8 games and are now 10.5 games removed from the top of the eastern Conference.

Their season to date record against .500 and above teams remains well below average at 11 wins and 15 losses.  They continue to lose on the road where they are 14-16.

The chemistry issues that have plagued this team all year are not getting any better.  They are getting worse.

Brad Stevens needs to make a change as soon as possible.  There style of play is not going to change.  The message from coach to players is not going to change.  The level of competition will continue to be challenging for the remainder of the season.  Benign neglect will surely end in disaster.  

The only logical thing for coach Steven to do is to make a change to his starting lineup and his rotation.  Nothing else is working.  Let's try a lineup change now and see if this helps.

As the Big Tuna said, "You are your record."

As the Big Tuna said, "You are your record."

worcester wrote:As the Big Tuna said, "You are your record."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Accardo



bob


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Very interesting Bob. Actually I was referring to Bill Parcells, but I would not want to cross the other Big Tuna.

Indiana remains 3 game up on Boston for 3rd place but they have a tougher remaining schedule than we do including two more games against us. Those games may decide playoff positioning.

Philly has a lot of tough game left beginning with a visit form GS.

A 3 game spread can be closed but do not depend on help from anybody.

A lot of teams are struggling right now

With only 9 games remaining things have gotten worse not better.  Injuries continue to plague our frontline which was inadequate to begin with.

Our defense continues to deteriorate.  Coach Stevens does not have a strategy to contain one player on the opposing team.  We have seen the same thing all year.  

Our offense remains 3 point centric and the team consistently under-performs in several key areas.

How good are they really?  They are really not that good.

dboss wrote:With only 9 games remaining things have gotten worse not better.  Injuries continue to plague our frontline which was inadequate to begin with.

Our defense continues to deteriorate.  Coach Stevens does not have a strategy to contain one player on the opposing team.  We have seen the same thing all year.  

Our offense remains 3 point centric and the team consistently under-performs in several key areas.

How good are they really?  They are really not that good.

I'd say good enough for 5th place in the East.

Nostradamus I am not!

We will find out during the playoffs when every player will play, regardless of the dings and dents suffered during the way-too-long regular season.

Having the team fully healthy and playing hard and intelligently both ends would help, but this team regularly plays with no discipline. Tatum will have players ahead of him and routinely refuses to pass the damn ball, Kyrie has been inserted a bunch of times with a lead with 5 minutes left in 4th, goes into his iso/hero ball and we lose the lead and game. We give up rebounds at bad times, butt it’s all gonna play out so we’ll see....I actually think Kyrie is irrelevant to how this team plays at its best. We are at our best when GH and Jaylen are at their best IMHO, those 2 are the keys to our playoff run. When they are rolling the whole team is rolling.

Injuries has severely hampered this team all season.  There is no doubt about that.  However that really does not account for the lack of fundamentals in several key areas.

This brings us to the coaching aspect.

Brad's coaching is as incomplete as this team.  He is no dummy.  He is however probably a better theorist than he is a teacher.  This team could use a task master.  

The roster does not help him to do all the things that need to be done.  Changes are going to be coming in the off season.  

This is a learning experience for this team but some guys are not going to be on the roster next year.

dboss wrote:Injuries has severely hampered this team all season.  There is no doubt about that.  However that really does not account for the lack of fundamentals in several key areas.

This brings us to the coaching aspect.

Brad's coaching is as incomplete as this team.  He is no dummy.  He is however probably a better theorist than he is a teacher.  This team could use a task master.  

The roster does not help him to do all the things that need to be done.  Changes are going to be coming in the off season.  

This is a learning experience for this team but some guys are not going to be on the roster next year.

You are correct, Brad comes off as an intellectual, not a get in your face Tommy H type, you need both to be a great coach. I’d be yelling and yelling when they make the continuous boneheaded non fundamental play....or take away their playing time, butt how can they blow a lead on a 5-30 run, totally unacceptable. This is a copycat league, if other teams know they can just out physical us and play harder and we crack because we have no fundamentals and no strategy, cannot be good. Our body language during that run also sucked, we just stopped playing and played really weak and dumb....when you have that bad of body language and no apparent strategy at all, that’s on the coach.