The New Look Boston Celtics

It has been 6 full years since Danny hired Brad Stevens and made the big trade with the Nets to launch his project to bring the Celtics back to prominence and a chance to win an NBA Championship.

dboss wrote:

Danny Ainge wasted little time in completing a 3rd major rebuild of the Boston Celtics. In Baseball, 3 strikes and you're out.  Danny knows all about that.

It has been 6 full years since Danny hired Brad Stevens and made the big trade with the Nets to launch his project to bring the Celtics back to prominence and a chance to win an NBA Championship.

The two most significant additions are Walker at PG and Kanter at center.  Walker can pretty much replicate the production that Irving gave the team last year albeit, not as efficient but I think his efficiency will improve under Brad Stevens..  Kanter replaces the point production for Al and is an upgrade on the glass but he does not have all the diversity of Horford in terms of spreading the floor, passing the ball and defending.

I do not see Walker as being a better fit than Irving in Brad's system but I see him as a better fit on the team and an easier player to get along with.  It is important to understand that both Irving and Walker ISO quite a bit.

The Celtics rotation has also undergone a makeover with the addition of 4 draftees + the frenchie.  Three of the rookies should be able to provide something this year.  All of them have questions.  Things about them that I am not sure about:

Langford's shooting and handle.  Is it all about the thumb or something more.

Williams as a very undersized PF that also plays below the rim.  Can he score in the post and/or get to the line in the NBA?  He does a lot of things well at the college level but he is joining a team with multiple guys that play the same position.  He does not fills a specific need at PF.  He was not a great rebounder or defender at the college level and he is not particularly quick or athletic.  More about that in a moment.

Edwards is an undersized SG living in the body of a PG.  If he can run the offense a bit he could become a key rotation player given the teams lack of depth at PG.  I believe he can help as a scorer off the bench immediately.

Waters  is small.  Will his diminutive profile keep him in the g-league?

VP adds depth at center.

 

Biggest challenges ahead.

Integrating 2 new players into the starting lineup and adding a viable post offense

Establishing a new rotation.

 

Figuring out how to best utilize Gordon Hayward.

What new pairing work best at the 4/5, 1/2 

Last year GH was in the lineup from day 1 and he was playing the small ball 4.  I think the Celtics will need him to play PF as his primary position and of course he will get minutes at the SF when Tatum rotates out of the game.

The PF position looks like a real problem on this team, however.  Who do we have to match up with the PF's in the East?  Who can play against Siakum or Serge who plays the PF/C position?   Who checks the 6'11" Sabonis for the Pacers?  With AH going to Philly and playing the 4 with Embid at the 5 who checks AH?  Who covers the MVP in Milwaukee?  What about Detroit and Griffin?   That's 5 teams in the East that have a positional advantage over the Celtics at PF.

The PF issue was a problem even with Morris manning that position.  The current Celtics roster does not address the need for a big PF that can rebound and defend.  We know that Enes is not a very good defender but we have some other options at the 5 now to fill in.  We do not have an answer for GH at PF.  I think we will see PF by committee and matchup situations will impact who plays and who does not.  We need a more singular option.

Semi is the best on the ball defender at PF but despite his physical profile he does not defend the post very well or rebound the basketball and he remains an inconsistent shooter from deep.  I do think he is the best undersized PF on the team and maybe he just needs to get consistent minutes.   

Yabusele sucks and was a piss poor pick by Danny.  I really do not need to see anymore.  Is he ready to play extended minutes at PF for us? 

And you have Daniel Theis another 6' 8" undersized PF.  He came over from Europe at age 25.  He is now 27 and there is no  upside.  He was dreadful during the playoffs.  He is a spot rotation player but has not proved his ability to be a significant rotation player.  I like Theis and love his energy but he is very limited because he does not have the stamina to play with a high level of energy over an extended period of time.  

I am very satisfied with the team except for the 4 spot.

 

Neither the draft nor free agency has addressed the PF weakness.

The Celtics should trade Gordon Hayward for a PF.  GH is a SF and JT is a SF.  Both of them are starting level SF although GH has much to prove this upcoming season.  Neither looks like a viable option at PF.  The Celtics need a starting level PF to compete in the East. That is the missing piece to this team.

                                                                            Good synopsis. I am hoping that Grant Williams is better than advertised.

Robert Williams is mobile, can cover on perimeter, I’d try him next to Kantor or Poirier for a stretch....the 2 teams that made it to the Finals did not have huge monster PF’s.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Robert Williams is mobile, can cover on perimeter, I’d try him next to Kantor or Poirier for a stretch....the 2 teams that made it to the Finals did not have huge monster PF’s.

                   The problem with any of those pairings is that nobody can stretch the D. No doubt, various combinations will be explored.

Last year we could “count on” Kyrie to get his 20 ppg and we had nobody else on this team that we could count on to do that as well and we need it.
This year we can count on Walker to get 20 ppg and again this year who will we count on to consistently do that?
That and the lack of a very good PF are obvious weaknesses on this team.
I want to see a trade that will help fill our needs at either. May mean losing Brown and/or Hayward (If Haywards close to 100% back maybe he is the consistent 20 we need).  I’m not very optimistic at this point. With the exception of a few (Walker, Tatum, Smart and maybe Brown) Not crazy about this team right now.

Dboss,
Great summary. Thanks.
Considering that there will be no more changes/additions.
The biggest question mark, IMO, is will JB and JT play on the level they've shown they can play consistently.
The second ? is GH: can he get to or close to the level he played in Utah.
If the answer to these questions is YES then we are in business - these guys can compensate for a lot of weaknesses at 4 and 5.
Agree about PF. I wonder if Danny somehow can get Morris...
As for the rooks - we shall see.

AK

No NBA team will assume Gordon's expensive contract. For the next 2 years he will be a Celtic.

Kanter
Tatum
Hayward
Smart
Walker

as the starters, no real PF in that case.

with Jaylen filling the Havlicek role as 6th man , makes the most sense to me.

I see Theis as the main backup at the 4 this year,when we need a bigger player there. We forget he was defensive player of the year twice in Europe.  he will provide solid defense when needed.

Rob W. will get his chance to earn playing time behind Kanter at center, but Poirier may be hard to move ahead of with his pro experience.

Semi will get minutes off the bench somewhere, depending on matchups.

I see Grant W. as getting the most minutes of our rookies this year. He is a hard worker and has a high BB IQ, they say. All things  that should get him rotational minutes also.

that leavers Langford or Edwards to earn the 10th spot in the rotation. I think it may be Edwards.

With his contract and needing to show he's back to his old self, I don't think Hayward is tradeable. And I think trading away an elite player that came here as a free agent doesn't send the message we want if we want to get better at drawing more elite FAs.

In all fairness to DT, i belive he was coming off a knee injury.  Seemed a bit slower with fewer dynamic plays.  He will be getting more minutes playing both 4 and small ball 5.

GH can stretch the floor.  He is the best option on offense at the 4 now that Morris is gone.  The defensive side is where things get a bit dicey.  I do not think he can handle the sheer physical demands of  PF on defense and on the glass.

I expect Morris to sign with LA if they miss getting Leonard. I believe he has the same agent as James and Davis.

Tatum started at 4 most of last year.  I think that will be true most games this year except when we play Philly with Embiid and Horford.

What we don't have is a Pascal Siakam type of player, a LONG rim-running defender at 4.

Poirier, it seems, has a midrange game.  We will need it and he will need to extend his range too.  Right now Theis is our only floor spreading big.  Poirer is a rim runner, both directions.  Losing Horford, especially to Philly, was a MUCH bigger loss than Kyrie.

A HUGE opportunity for Williams.  All reports say he is working his ass off everyday in the gym.  I don't know on what exactly but learning how to be a vocal baseline defender should be Job 1, which requires BBIQ.  I hope he has it.  He blew a lot of defensive switches last year.  A Lot.  In his defense, no pun intended, he missed camp and preseason, a significant setback for a rookie lacing up NBA sneakers for the first time.  I also hope he is working on his midrange shot.  I am most concerned that our bigs (4s an 5s) cannot spread the floor, which will male for a lot of ugly halfcourt possessions in a game.

We won't miss Rozier's offense, but who will stay in front of fast point guards now?


bob


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All of this talk about next season really gets me excited. Can't wait till pre season begins.

As long as the players play together and work as a team it will be a better season than the last one.

bobheckler wrote:Tatum started at 4 most of last year.  I think that will be true most games this year except when we play Philly with Embiid and Horford.

What we don't have is a Pascal Siakam type of player, a LONG rim-running defender at 4.

Poirier, it seems, has a midrange game.  We will need it and he will need to extend his range too.  Right now Theis is our only floor spreading big.  Poirer is a rim runner, both directions.  Losing Horford, especially to Philly, was a MUCH bigger loss than Kyrie.

A HUGE opportunity for Williams.  All reports say he is working his ass off everyday in the gym.  I don't know on what exactly but learning how to be a vocal baseline defender should be Job 1, which requires BBIQ.  I hope he has it.  He blew a lot of defensive switches last year.  A Lot.  In his defense, no pun intended, he missed camp and preseason, a significant setback for a rookie lacing up NBA sneakers for the first time.  I also hope he is working on his midrange shot.  I am most concerned that our bigs (4s an 5s) cannot spread the floor, which will male for a lot of ugly halfcourt possessions in a game.

We won't miss Rozier's offense, but who will stay in front of fast point guards now?


bob


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Bob regarding our starting 4,  Tatum actually did not play a lot at PF.  Stevens tried both him and GH there at different times during the season but neither were able to establish themselves as starting quality PF.

Morris started 53 games at PF and AH started 9 games at PF.  That's 62 out of 82 games.

Hayward looks physically stronger than Tatum to me so I think he will get more opportunities at the 4 plus GH is 225 lbs.  Much depends on his ability to be much better than last year.  If GH can get us 14 PPG and 6 boards he will more then make up for the loss of Morris because he will also facilitate and Morris could not do that.  

GH however cannot be expected to match up with any of the top 5 Power forwards in the East on the defensive and rebounding elements associated with the position (traditional)

Theis and Semi and to a lesser degree Yabusele can do one or maybe 2 things but neither from that group are talented enough.  Maybe one of them can emerge as a 20 MPG guy but that is a question yet to be answered.  See their MPG numbers and their productivity.  

RW has length and quickness to guard all the way out to the perimeter so I think he can help on the defensive side of the ball playing some PF but again the Celtics lack a more singular solution at PF.  It is going to be a case of trial and error and PF by committee.  You cannot achieve any continuity if you are playing 3-5 guys at power forward.  (Theis, Semi Yabusele, RW, GW, GH, JT)   

PF remains the biggest question mark on a team that has just undergone a major makeover/rebuild.

Brad Stevens had a tough year coaching what turned into a dysfunctional team.

What does he need to do to be a better coach?  Two divisive guys are gone in Irving and Rozier.  His preference has been to run a high post offense but his top guy in AH is gone.  Can he still run an effective high post offense using a 1-2, 1-3 or 1-4 pick and roll?  Or other combinations for that matter.  If you believe that positionless basketball changes who is executing certain plays then multiple combinations of running a high post offense can be achieved.  maybe..

Kanter and Theis still have jump shot options. Rob Williams supposedly has been working on it. Poirier has at least shown in highlights that he’s effective on the roll.

Kyle I think we may see less pick and pops with AH gone.  I think we should be fine scoring out of the pick and roll.

dboss wrote:Kyle I think we may see less pick and pops with AH gone.  I think we should be fine scoring out of the pick and roll.

Maybe. Theis should still play a lot and can do it. Same with Kanter. A lot could depend on Rob Williams development at center. He has the highest ceiling. At the 4, whoever is in that role can do it as well (Hayward, Ojeleye, Grant Williams, Yabusele, Theis)

Last year Theis/Semi/Yabusele combined for 11.3 points per game and 6.2 rebounds.

At some point Boston fans will come to realize that these guys are average to below average NBA players.  I cannot honestly look at any of them and come to a conclusion that any of them are ready to break out.  

GH will be the starting small ball PF.  If he is as healthy as the reports claims he should be able to do a lot of good things from the position.  How many minutes are we talking about?  I have no idea but there will be a battle for minutes at the 4 until Danny finds a permanent solution

kdp59 wrote:

Kanter
Tatum
Hayward
Smart
Walker

as the starters, no real PF in that case.

with Jaylen filling the Havlicek role as 6th man , makes the most sense to me.

I see Theis as the main backup at the 4 this year,when we need a bigger player there. We forget he was defensive player of the year twice in Europe.  he will provide solid defense when needed.

Rob W. will get his chance to earn playing time behind Kanter at center, but Poirier may be hard to move ahead of with his pro experience.

Semi will get minutes off the bench somewhere, depending on matchups.

I see Grant W. as getting the most minutes of our rookies this year. He is a hard worker and has a high BB IQ, they say. All things  that should get him rotational minutes also.

that leavers Langford or Edwards to earn the 10th spot in the rotation. I think it may be Edwards.

Just scanning through here on a busy long weekend. Have to admit to not reading carefully, but I think above is most likely the starting lineup at this point.

Brown makes sense as 6th man, unless Hayward doesn't return to form, in which case Brown takes his spot.

I think R Williams will be second option at center, and given every chance to become the starter later on, or flame out. I don't think we'll see much of Poirier, but nice surprises sometimes happen.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Edwards earn minutes quickly, and establish himself behind Walker. Same idea with G Williams as some sort of a PF/SF tweener.

The Celtics can remain a very good offensive team if they are able to transition away from being a jump shooting team to a team that can make jump shots and can punish opponents in the post.  If they can be stronger on the defensive glass they should be able to fastbreak more.  Enes is a skilled rebounder off the offensive glass as compared to AH so i also expect more 2nd chance points.

There are mostly things to like about this team.  

The biggest challenge may be the guy with the clipboard.  Will Brad have guys that should be fighting in the post for rebounds, standing at the top of the key?

Will Brad change his mindset in how minutes are distributed among the bottom part of his rotation.   A few minutes here and there for too many players stunts development.

This teams does not have a great passer into the post.  They have not had one since Rondo was traded.  The Celtics had a lot of turnovers because they did not know how to feed the post and did not have a high-end distributor.  Will Brad implement some version of the triangle offense to help create better passing angles into the post?

We will have several new assistants on the bench.  I find it curious that Brad has relied so heavily on college level coaching experience. I also find it interesting that he has never emphasized the need for a big man coach.  Part of this may be routed in positionless basketball philosophy.  If everybody can do everything why do we need position coaches?

Now that the summer league has concluded, the new look Boston Celtics come a bit more into focus for me.

The most impressive players from the 5 game tournament where:

Carson Edwards made a case for himself to be in the rotation because he is a flat out scorer

Robert Williams averaged 9.8 rebounds and 1.8 blocks.  I was very impressed with his speed and athleticism.  I was mostly surprised by his passing abilities.  He made quick reads and pinpoint passes.  

Grant Williams scored, rebounded and passed the ball well.  His defensive abilities begins with his one step ahead reads.  He still looks on the slow side getting up and down.  I think he will be part of a 10 man rotation.  (RW and CE look like top 8 guys)  

Waters did a very good job distributing the basketball and averaged almost 5 assists per game.  He handles the ball well but his shooting was sub-par.  Some time in the G-League seems appropriate.

Javonte Green is an athletic freak but how do you get him minutes in an already crowded wing rotation? 

Tacko Fall became the fan favorite and he did not disappoint.  Yes he can play in the NBA.  He needs to work on his stamina, agility and FT shooting but if you are playing a zone defense he is your guy.  I think Boston must find a way to get him under contract.

We still do not know a lot about Romeo Langford and Vincent Poirier.  They will come to camp behind the other guys.

Looking ahead to the season, Danny has done a very good job rebuilding the team after having lost 5 players from last year's rotation.

Brad has his work cut out for him and it may take 1/3 of the season to figure out the right mix.  His biggest hurdle will be changing his offense to include a significant low post option.  All 3 of his true centers are guys that are low post scorers.  I believe his coaching abilities will be tested because Brad has been locked into a jump shooting offense ever since he took over as head coach.  Now he has a viable low post option but he still has enough shooters to surround that low post option.  This team will challenge our patience but they should be fun to watch.

The x-factor is probably Gordon Hayward.  If he can get back to his allstar year level then Boston has 2 legit stars in Walker and Hayward.  Tatum and Brown could also step into the next tier if Hayward falters.  The Celtics may need to make at least one more move to pair down the replication of undersized tweener PF's.   The Celtics will start a PG, SG, center and two SF.  This can work if Boston can become a dominant rebounding team and strong defensively in the paint and defending the rim.

Here's how I see the squads, for the most part, but we've seen that Brad is very much into matching up with other teams so we might see Theis starting at PF against bigger teams (e.g. Philly, with Embiid and Horford?) and The Time Lord getting off the bench before Poirier if Brad wants defense, etc.

Unlike previous years when the bench was really young and Smart volunteered to come off the bench to lead and stabilize the 2nd unit our current 6-10 has older players.  Only Poirier and Edwards with no NBA experience.  This is RWill's opening.  However little NBA experience he has it's more than Poirier's.  I have said I don't think Poirier is going to Maine, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is getting <10mpg early in the season as he acclimates to the NBA.  

But I wouldn't put it past Smarty to offer to come off the bench so Jaylen can start.  That's the kind of teammate he is.

Starters
Walker
Smart
Hayward
Tatum
Kanter

Second Unit
Brown (wing replacement for either Smart or Hayward)
Theis (PF.  Replaces Tatum or Hayward to go big)
Poirier (Kanter back up.  Bigger than Williams and more accomplished offensively)
Edwards (designated microwave scorer and opposing point guard pest)
Wanamaker (Walker back up.  Not as flashy as Langford but a veteran who knows Brad's system and Brad trusts. Solid)

Deep Bench
Grant Williams (depending upon available minutes he may be spending a fair amount of time in Maine)
Robert Williams (maybe 1st replacement for Kanter if Brad wants defense instead of offense.  Then 8th and not 12th)
Langford (getting minutes in Maine, either early in the season to aid his development)
Semi (battling for minutes with GWill)
??? (maybe Tacko, maybe Waters, maybe...either way, lots of time in Maine)


bob


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Bob,

I've switched my ideas about Hayward or Brown being the starter from that original post.

Since Hayward can actually run the offense as a primary ball handler (IMO at least). I think him taking the 6th man role makes more sense to me.

also Brown can play UP on defense, meaning he can actually play against some bigger players.

Kanter
Tatum
Brown
Smart
Walker

make more and more sense as the regular starters. Though against some of the bigger teams with two big starting Brad may have to use Theis or Rob W. as starters then

Like I said I really think Hayward could thrive running the second team, both as the main ball handler and scorer as well. Truly a Havlicek type role.

Theis will do what he does and I still figure he's the 7th man on the depth chart.

But I think Rob W. has a real chance to take a step into the main rotation myself. His play at summer league showed he's been working hard no both his game and body to me. His ability was never really challenged , just how much he was going to work for it. Looked to me like he has been.

so Rob makes my top 8.

if that all plays out then I think Semi and Carson will round out the top 10 rotation, IMO.

That would men Kemba, Smart and Hayward as our main play makers.