Shaq's comments on Harangody signing:

Very interesting. Thanks, bob.

Bob: Now if Russ could make Shaq reconcile with Shawnee, that would be a minor miracle." If only you'd believe like I believe in Miracles,"-Jefferson Starship- 1975!-MD!

Now that Matt Barnes has moved out to LA there might be a chance.

I heard the Shaq comments about who is he (Harangody) I thought is was funny and then I also came to the conclusion that Shaq has had a lot on his plate and can not be expected to know who Harangody is. To be honest, I never heard of him or Bradley before the Celtics drafted them.

Anyways I think both of those guys will fit into the Celtics team with perhaps Bradley getting more opportunities to play than Luke.

As far as any divisiveness on Shaq's part, he has been saddled with great players (Kobe, Wade and Lebron) who all like to pound the basketball. I think that the Celtics offense shares the ball more than any of those teams did despite the successes that they had. Shaq will have opportunites to be the center of the Celtics offense when he is in the game and i feel strongly that Rondo, KG, PP and Ray as well as the other Celtics will find him in the post where he can still dominate against most centers in the league, if even for a limited amount of time.

The Celtics are a veteran team and while there was conflict in the locker room at times I think the team really pulled together and made an amazing showing during the playoff run.

Overall this team is really rounding into a very interesting collection of players.

dboss

This team could be very good or freaky good. NBA, watch out!

this is going to be a fascinating, maybe compelling season for Boston and the whole NBA. the way things have taken shape is utterly amazing.

PS - this doesn't really belong here, but speaking of interesting developments around the league, what the hell is Carmelo doing ??????

Michael

The only thing Carmelo is doing is apparently turning down a 3 year $65m extension from the Nuggets. I think he will be traded before the season starts.

tjmakz wrote:The only thing Carmelo is doing is apparently turning down a 3 year $65m extension from the Nuggets. I think he will be traded before the season starts.

yeah - he won't even turn it down - he's just not signin nuthin ! appears LA will have little to be concerned about from the Nuggets this year !

bigpygme wrote:this is going to be a fascinating, maybe compelling season for Boston and the whole NBA. the way things have taken shape is utterly amazing.

PS - this doesn't really belong here, but speaking of interesting developments around the league, what the hell is Carmelo doing ??????

Michael

I have no idea what his reasons are for apparently wanting out of Denver, so I won't add to the guesswork out there in the media. I do think it's a shame. I thought Carmelo really stepped up his game last year to an MVP-type level, even if he didn't get the notice that other players did. Denver seems to collect knuckleheads (Kenyon Martin and JR Smith, Iverson and Dahntay Jones before that), but with Carmelo leading the way, they played very well the first half of last season. Unfortunately, the wheels came off once George Karl had to step back for health reasons, but there was a lot there to like -- players like Lawson, Kleiza, Anderson, and Afflalo filling roles, Nene doing a decent job in the middle, and Billups providing a steady hand and solid numbers. I really thought they were in good shape for a multi-year contending run, so I'm surprised that Carmelo seems so eager to get away from what looked like a good situation. Maybe there are bad things going on in the locker room, maybe Carmelo is too easily swayed by the LeBron-Wade-Bosh thing and his entourage cooing in his ear, or maybe he's just an idiot. I don't know. But it's a shame.

Outside

thx for your thoughts, outside - they pretty much match up with my own ... the common sense is he needs something more ego-gratifying, and parhaps he'll fin it in NYC. but it was a pretty good thing they had going ... potential to give the Lakers a nice run if they all got healthy together, especially including Karl.

Why is there such negativity toward free agents or potential free agents wanting to sign with a different team? These players earned the right to sign with whatever team makes them an offer.
I doubt Carmelo is an idiot...
I am pretty sure he will handle his future free agency better then LeBron did.
Denver is not making a run at the title. Anderson, Nene and Martin all have injuries that have slowed them down.

tjmakz wrote:Why is there such negativity toward free agents or potential free agents wanting to sign with a different team? These players earned the right to sign with whatever team makes them an offer.
I doubt Carmelo is an idiot...

TJ, I'm sure part of it is my age. I grew up during a time when most players stayed with teams for their entire careers, which built tremendous loyalty with that team's fans. A big part of the reason why players didn't move is that owners held all the cards and there was no free agency, which led to abuses by some owners and some players being stuck with lousy contracts playing for lousy owners and coaches. Free agency changed all that, and now the pendulum has swung to the other extreme with many players (and their agents and hangers-on) putting themselves first above the team (and their fans) and switching teams to maximize their own self-interest. So it's gone from players being a part of the identity of a team and city to being mercenaries. Fans have gone from a lifelong emotional attachment to short-term, limited interest in a player who may hold out and be gone before next season even though he's under contract. In the current system, Ernie Banks would have to test the free-agent market to do what's right for him and his family instead of becoming "Mr. Cub." For someone my age, I resent that Denver fans have to accept losing their star player and relegating their team to second-tier status just because Carmelo has an itch he wants to scratch. And yes, they will be relegated to second-tier status, because they will not get equal value in return from a trade with the Knicks, Nets, or Rockets.

I understand the need for free agency, but as far as I'm concerned, the current system is too far toward the other extreme, and I'd like to see a system where free agents signing elsewhere is a lot less common. According to the CBA, Carmelo has earned the right to play somewhere else after this season. But that doesn't mean I think it's right or that I admire him for it.

Why do I feel so negatively toward mercenary free agents? For the same reason I admire Kevin Durant for quietly signing an extension with the small-market OKC Thunder. Two sides of the same coin. Durant is going to make millions in max money and seems humble enough to appreciate the situation. Carmelo is turning down max money because Denver isn't good enough for him and doesn't fit into his ego-driven plans. Yes, Carmelo, LeBron, and their ilk are free to sign with whomever they want, and I'm free to feel negatively toward them for it.

Outside

Outside,

Do you really want to compare Durant resigning to Anthony possibly not resigning with Denver? Durant has played in the NBA for 3 years. He signed a 5 year contract which means he will be with OKC for 8 years. Anthony had already resigned with Denver for 5 years after he had played for 3 with them. Why the praise for Durant when Anthony did the same exact thing 4 years ago?
I would probably leave Denver too if I was Anthony. The championship hopes for Denver has already passed them. Age and injuries have made them a non-championship contender.
On the other hand, OKC is a championship contender for many years. They have a very young nucleus: Durant, Green, Aldrich, Harden, Ibaka, Maynor, Westbrook. That is an easy call to re-sign with OKC with the team they have.
To think that Carmelo is ego-centric or a mercenary free agent for possibly wanting to fulfill a new opportunity shows that your views are way outdated or you just like to focus on the negative.

TJ

I think your stuck on the winning thing a bit much here. If i'm reading outside correctly and as to the age factor when we/I were younger and into sports a lot virtually all of my so called sports "heros" played for one team. I grew up in the 60's loving the NY Football Giants even loved watching the great Jimmy Brown for Cleveland. In Baseball back then it was the Mick for the Yankees. And of course all the main Celtics of that era virtually played their entire careers with the C's with Hondo and Russell my main 2. There were never many trades and very few blockbusters ones. Free agency put a whole new face on things. Not saying it's right or wrong the way it is now, just a whole lot different. The ability of players to move around these days is different and makes it difficult for fans to embrace them to quite the same degree. Outdated you say?...............perhaps different for sure. You grew up in a completely different era than many of us and have avery difficult time relating to things we saw in person that you can only read about. It makes ones veiw of today a whole lot different than yours.

And one final thought.......perhaps there are just too many teams in many of the pro leagues. A little downsizing might be in order.

Jusy my opinion.

beat

TJ,

You wanted to know why I feel negatively toward free agents leaving their teams, and I told you. I said up front that part of it is that I'm older (I'm 53) and have a fondness for the stronger bonds that were forged with players years ago. Mine is not the only point of view, but it is a valid point of view.

You may characterize my views as "way outdated," but appreciating certain aspects of how sports used to be does not automatically make me cluelessly stuck in the past. I'm a bit more intellectually nimble than that.

As for "focusing on the negative," you asked why I feel negatively about a particular situation, so my explanation naturally focused more on the negatives of that situation. If you ask someone a question about nighttime, don't complain that the answer focuses on nighttime instead of the daytime.

As for the Nuggets' prospects if Anthony stays, I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you. Age? Other than Billups, who is very productive at 34, and Kenyon Martin, whose main issue is between the ears and not his age (33), they are a young team. Injuries? You mention Anderson, Nene, and Martin. Both Anderson and Nene had offseason surgery to repair non-major knee injuries and are expected to be fully recovered for training camp. Martin's injury situation is apparently more doubtful, but that's been his history, and -- news flash -- NBA teams usually have players with some sort of injury issue. I just don't see the Nuggets' injury situation as that bad. They went 53-29 last year, even dealing with George Karl's cancer situation and absence the last part of the season. Are you seriously saying that his championship prospects are better with the Knicks and Nets??

No, I'll stick with my guess that the "new opportunity" that Carmelo wants to fulfill with the Knicks or Nets is about self-promotion, not championship opportunities.

Outside

Outside,

What good young players does Denver have? JR Smith? Lawson? Nice players but not stars. Anderson and Martin will not be ready for training camp. I don't know about Nene. See below:

While talking to The Denver Post Wednesday about Carmelo Anthony's situation, Kenyon Martin revealed that he and Chris Andersen will miss the start of the 2010-11 season.
"I'm probably going to miss some of the season," said Martin.
What a about a timetable?
"Honestly, I have no idea," Martin said. "We're getting through these first few months, but we haven't even talked for about a month. (Dr. Richard Steadman) is conservative, so he doesn't want to put out a timetable, because what if something happens and I don't come back at that time? He goes on feel."
He also told the newspaper, when discussing the clubs offseason, that Andersen will also be out when the season starts in late October.
"Personally, my thinking is -- I can't see where we got better this summer. Al Harrington, (a free-agent signing) is cool, Al's my man, but I can't see how we got better. You know, I'm going to be out and (Andersen) is going to be out (to start the season), so did we get better? I can't say that we did."

If NY signs Carmelo and maybe a Tony Parker next year, they will be a top tier team in the NBA with those two, Amare, Felton, Chandler, Mozgov, and Anthony Randolph who I think will be a star/superstar in the NBA.

I would think Carmelo going to NY would be about self promotion, new opportunities on the court and living in or near NYC AND the opportunity to win a championship.

I am ok with people being old school and not liking free agency, but calling these guys ego-maniacs seems to be a little over the top. Carmelo has until July of next year to sign the extension. Why should he have to sign it early?

beat wrote:TJ

I think your stuck on the winning thing a bit much here. If i'm reading outside correctly and as to the age factor when we/I were younger and into sports a lot virtually all of my so called sports "heros" played for one team. I grew up in the 60's loving the NY Football Giants even loved watching the great Jimmy Brown for Cleveland. In Baseball back then it was the Mick for the Yankees. And of course all the main Celtics of that era virtually played their entire careers with the C's with Hondo and Russell my main 2. There were never many trades and very few blockbusters ones. Free agency put a whole new face on things. Not saying it's right or wrong the way it is now, just a whole lot different. The ability of players to move around these days is different and makes it difficult for fans to embrace them to quite the same degree. Outdated you say?...............perhaps different for sure. You grew up in a completely different era than many of us and have avery difficult time relating to things we saw in person that you can only read about. It makes ones veiw of today a whole lot different than yours.

And one final thought.......perhaps there are just too many teams in many of the pro leagues. A little downsizing might be in order.

Jusy my opinion.

beat

beat,

People always complain about players chasing the money and not the rings. Now that some NBA players are showing that they are chasing the rings, why are they being ridiculed? I think it's all about winning and that should be the players focus. There is nothing wrong with playing for a team for 7 years and then moving on to another team who you think you can win a championship with. Also, many wealthy people would love to live in NYC or Miami compared to Cleveland or Toronto or Denver. If your wife wanted to live in Miami or NYC and you had the opportunity to play for the Knicks or Heat, would you turn it down just because some fans feel you should play your whole career with the same team? Denver, Toronto and Cleveland are not championship contender teams. Good for those guys for making a new opportunity for themselves.

I do agree that there are too many teams, especially in MLB. Unfortunately, leagues have chosen to prop up these failing franchises/businesses by throwing money at them via luxury tax revenues.

This might be the first time I've heard of someone trying to suggest that NBA superstars (like LeBron and Carmelo, to name two) are not ego-driven promoters. The LeBron-a-thon was nothing but that.

What can we expect next? Non-power hungry politicians? Movie stars who don't want camera time?

Seriously, though, I'm ok with players moving around. What bothers me is the collusion. A symbiotic system is a healthier system and if the owners can't collude then the players shouldn't be able to either. Is that enforceable? Probably not, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be severe penalties for doing it if caught ("severe" should be defined in the context of that we're talking about mega-multi millionaires here whose tips are bigger than my take-home). Many cities have HUGE investments in the infrastructure (arenas, parking, concessions) to lure major league franchises of various sports. When a player decides they're going to conspire (a nastier, slightly more legally specific way of saying "colluding") with another player and, as a result of that conspiracy, effectively kneecaps an entire metropolitan area's tax base, there will be an outcry and backlash. One could argue that the pendulum swing should come in the body of a newly renegotiated CBA, but it will come. You are not going to have mayors, city councilmen, local chambers of commerce (not to mention the franchisees themselves) and millions of fans held hostage to any single individual without a struggle.

bob

.

TJ

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with my wife or me, its about being a fan. Nothing more. And in my opinion it's much harder to develop a fan loyalty now than it was when I was a kid. I stopped liking the Yankees when they traded Murcer. I absolutely loved him. Yeah they got a very good player in Bobby Bonds but he wasn't Murcer. ( who replaced the Mick) but after that I was done with um. I follow baseball a lot but really have never latched onto one team again.

You see things much different than I and thats in large part to age, thats fine but again I believe your missing the point and I agree with outside that Melo is more about me than we. Denver has had a nice team but is not going to get better soon, I think they have had their run. we'll agree there but jumping ship by the star player is not condusive to loyalty by fans whom shell out the bucks. Will Melo be successfull where ever he goes? Will he make that team a champion? Who knows.

We shall see how this all plays out with the CBA ending this season. Would not suprise me at all there is no season next year.

fact is only 1 team that makes the playoffs wins it's last game every year. And there really are very few teams that have a real chance to win it all. Players can move quite freely now and if they so choose, then they need to expect a backlash to those fans in Denver and Cleveland that they turn their back on. So as you say good for those guys for making a new opportuiity for themselves which points to this, it's all about ME not WE.

beat

tjmakz wrote:I am ok with people being old school and not liking free agency, but calling these guys ego-maniacs seems to be a little over the top.

I didn't call anyone an egomaniac. I said Denver doesn't fit into Carmelo's "ego-driven plans." My point was to contrast the depth of feeling fans can develop for a player who spends most of his career with one team compared to a free agent moving to another team for self-promotional purposes.

tjmakz wrote:Carmelo has until July of next year to sign the extension. Why should he have to sign it early?

You know how this works. The Nuggets offered him a max extension, but he apparently isn't going to sign, and that's a loud signal that he wants to go elsewhere. Yes, he's signed for the season, but going with the status quo in the hopes that he signs after the season would be a dumb move by the Nuggets. If he isn't signing a max extension now, why should they think he'd sign it after the season? How'd that work out for the Cavs?

Where we have what seems like an honest difference of opinion is on the futures of the Nuggets and Knicks. I think the Nuggets would continue to be a contender with Carmelo; you don't. You think the Knicks can form a "Heat Lite" superfriends team after next season that will be a championship contender; I think the Knicks have among the most incompetent owners and management ever assembled and won't ever win until that changes. Let's leave it at that.

Your position comes across as free agency having numerous benefits and no disadvantages. I readily acknowledge that free agency has benefits, but it also plainly has disadvantages, too. Isn't that a fair statement?

Outside, you are a voice of reason indeed.

bobheckler wrote:This might be the first time I've heard of someone trying to suggest that NBA superstars (like LeBron and Carmelo, to name two) are not ego-driven promoters. The LeBron-a-thon was nothing but that.

What can we expect next? Non-power hungry politicians? Movie stars who don't want camera time?

Seriously, though, I'm ok with players moving around. What bothers me is the collusion. A symbiotic system is a healthier system and if the owners can't collude then the players shouldn't be able to either. Is that enforceable? Probably not, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be severe penalties for doing it if caught ("severe" should be defined in the context of that we're talking about mega-multi millionaires here whose tips are bigger than my take-home). Many cities have HUGE investments in the infrastructure (arenas, parking, concessions) to lure major league franchises of various sports. When a player decides they're going to conspire (a nastier, slightly more legally specific way of saying "colluding") with another player and, as a result of that conspiracy, effectively kneecaps an entire metropolitan area's tax base, there will be an outcry and backlash. One could argue that the pendulum swing should come in the body of a newly renegotiated CBA, but it will come. You are not going to have mayors, city councilmen, local chambers of commerce (not to mention the franchisees themselves) and millions of fans held hostage to any single individual without a struggle.

bob

.

bob,

How much money do these players bring to the cities they play for? Millions. How much did LeBron increase the value of the Cavs? Somewhere in the 9 figure area. The cities/teams shouldn't be able to hold all the power to keep the players tied to their team indefinitely.
I hate everything about how LeBron handled what he did. I do support him for having the right to sign with Miami or any team that offered him a contract.
Players who talk to each other about playing for the same team is not collusion or a conspiracy. See below what David Stern said about the James/Wade/Bosh signings.

“What we told the owners was that the three players are totally, as our system has evolved, within their rights to talk to each other,” Commissioner David Stern said after the meeting, which was held here in conjunction with the N.B.A. summer league.

Players on different teams who discuss the idea of someday playing together “is not tampering or collusion that is prohibited,” Stern said.

Outside,

Do you view all the players that signed with new teams this year as having ego-driven plans or is that just for the superstars like LeBron and Carmelo? I didn't hear anyone saying that about Mike Miller, Steve Blake, Jermaine O'Neal or countless other players.

If a team trades a premier player, it is ok, but if that player wants to leave, he is ridiculed for it...

The Knicks have been terribly incompetent and still are (Isiah Thomas fiasco) but they are the largest market team in the NBA and will be a popular place for premier free agents to sign in the next couple of years.

Is NY a larger market than LA? Just wondering.

beat,

Who is the WE that Carmelo should be worrying about? Should he be tied to the loyal Nuggets fans for his whole career?
I understand your point, Outside's, and probably many others here, that this is not how it was with teams in the 1960's, 70's or 80's, but this is 2010.
I don't feel my view is wrong because I am in line with what is allowed and commonplace is all sports. I am not saying you guys are wrong, but the expectation that these guys should play for the team that drafted them is outdated by decades.