Jojo White vs Bob Lanier

A little trivia for you guys (and Rosie).


Anybody remember what Jojo White, Bob Lanier, Bill Russell, Keith Jackson, the Lakers and the Knicks have in common ?


(Hint- they were all in the same place at the same time.)




Some further thoughts from the other Jojo thread:

1. Worthy gets tossed around in the media as a right time/ right place guy, who somehow lucked his way into the HOF b/c of Magic and Kareem. Obviously, the LAkers wouldn't have been winning titles without those two guys, but what a lot of media people forget (or never knew) is that on the three teams where Worthy won a title ('85, '87 and '88), Kareem's output was declining each year as he got older, and Worthy was a major factor in offsetting that.

There's a reason they called him "Big Game James". His playoff averages were always above his reg season numbers, and he was a huge part of all three of those titles- LA wouldn't have won any of three without him, in fact.

He averaged 22, 6 and 4 over those three Finals, and was the first or second highest scorer on each of those teams.

Most importantly, he came up big when it mattered most, such as Game 7, '88 Finals. The stage doesn't get any bigger, and Worthy went for 36, 16 and 10.

That's as opposed to someone like Karl Malone, whose choke at the end of Game 1 in '97 cost the Jazz the series and killed Karl's rep as a crunchtime guy. I love Karl but he really damaged his legacy there.


2. Robert Horry should be in the HOF. I saw him referenced in a way that made him sound like Adam Morrison- a guy who picked up some rings by being lucky enough to sit at the end of the bench on a championship squad. Nothing could be further from the truth. Horry is obviously not an all-time great PF, but he is an all time great role player who hit huge, game-deciding shots in the playoffs on every championship team he played for. If someone who wasn't as clutch as Horry was taking those shots (Frank Selvy, anyone ?), those teams don't win their titles. He was a unique player who hit pressure shot after pressure shot when the stakes were at their highest. That's a rare skill, and the fact that he did it for three different franchises winning a total of seven titles makes it even more impressive. His teams' success was no coincidence- every champion needs guys like Horry. If Posey had played on the Spurs and won a few titles prior to joining the Heat and Cs, I would make the same case for him. Another truly clutch player, but he didn't have the opportunity to deliver over and over like Horry did.


3. Tom H is undoubtedly a deserving HOFer. It's not fantasy basketball- your team doesn't win by having a bunch of guys pile up stats. You need role players, and defense matters. You guys would know better than I would, but my impression from listening to Tommy in a few interviews over the years and reading a bit is that he was an absolute beast when he was young, then sublimated his game for the betterment of the team as the Cs added talent around him and he started aging. And he came up big when it mattered most. Sounds like the kind of guy I'll have on my team any day.

When a team wins as many titles as the Cs did in the '60's or the Lakers did in the '80's, they don't do it solely on the basis of having three stars who put up gaudy numbers. There are multiple guys on those teams who were role players who were vital parts of the championship formula.


4. Michael Cooper should also be in the HOF. He has 5 rings. DPOY in '87 (rare for a guard). 5 time first team all defense. 3 time second team all defense. LIke Horry and Tommy, you don't win championships without guys like Cooper, and like those guys, Cooper came up big on the biggest stage.

Defense is just as important as offense, but it doesn't sell tickets or drive tv ratings, so it gets overlooked by the media usually. But the Lakers wouldn't have been able to beat teams like the early '80's Sixers or mid-'80's Cs without Cooper guarding Dr J and Bird, respectively. The fact that Bird said the Cooper was the best defender he ever faced really says it all.


5. Props to NYC for bringing up Petit and the Big E. Can't have a discussion of all time PFs without those guys in the mix at the top.


6. And lastly, when comparing players in a historical context, there are a bunch of factors that all matter:

Impact on the game, impact on teammates, rings, stats, performance in the clutch, quality of teammates, quality of competition, and historical context are all part of the equation. How an individual weighs those factors will vary, and thus some people end up with a preference for Mchale over Malone. Personally, I'd take Bob Petit over both of them, but it's a completely valid discussion. There is no "right" answer- it just depends on how much weight you give each factor.


Having a different opinion doesn't mean one person is right and the other person is wrong. Just means they value the various factors differently. And isn't that part of the fun of sports and the reason boards like this exist ? To have some fun discussion and debates ? If we all had the same opinion about everything there wouldn't be much to talk about and it would be pretty boring.

Now if someone was trying to make an argument for Mark Landsberger over Malone or Greg Kite over Wilt, that would be another story.

soooo anyone who has a big moment in the finals and is a solid role player should be in the Hall of Fame. Isnt' that that the Hall of pretty good/average or the hall of I played on a winner?

FYI the Big E fouled out of Game 7 of the finals with 10 mins to go and the Bullets still won the title.

Role players are a huge necessity to succeed, but they don't belong in the Hall of Fame for accepting their role and coming up big in a few important playoff games. They deserve a thanks from the teams fans and a ring. That's how I feel about it.

Then again I also feel there's more than a few guys who don't belong in the Hall already and made it by association of being fortunate enough to play on a winner or put up gawdy numbers on a bad teams.

"It's all about balance"

I have banned myself from this conversation...
Self control does work!

TJ,

Me too. Probably for different reasons.

Sam

well I won't, I argue too much and have a strong belief in my opinions even if they do change somewhat from time to time because I'm willing to listen to others, agree with what I want and also voice what I disagree with.

otherwise why bother visiting forums and discussing varies topics?

cf,

As I am learning, you can't fight every little battle.
Let the little things go and stand up for things that aren't almost completely opinion based such as a 'who was better' discussion.

TJ,

You have just identified the reason why I've found over time that the most productive conversations (interesting, high-energy, lots of give and take, but relatively little personal stuff) revolve around subjects on which we all have the same inputs. Like your thread about the rule changes. Like games that we can all see, at least on television.

It's when, as I believe you're suggesting, opinions substitute for evidence to which we all have relatively equal exposure that things often start to get personal. Arguments spanning eras, greatest this or that, etc. And much of the reason for that is exactly what CF mentioned. He feels very sure of himself, and that's a great way to feel. But others don't automatically accept his self-assurance as a reason to agree with him because many of them feel sure of themselves too. On a message board loaded with passion and emotion, it's not shocking (although it is unfortunate) when things drift in a personal direction.

Your comment about selectivity in picking one's battles (which, I believe either BSH or Outside also espoused) may be the best-ever guideline for people participating on a message board.

Sam

BSH, for some reason the 1969-70 basketball season and the ABC TV network is scratching at my brain. Looking forward to the answer of this puzzler.
PS. Don't know if this is in any way related to your question but I remember as a kid the NBA on ABC having a halftime one on one contest, JoJo and Lanier advanced to the finals and Lanier used his size to wipe the floor with JoJo. Does anyone else recall this? How about the halftime horse contest, which then Phoenix Sun Paul Westphal won. Don't remember who he beat in the final but for some reason Dave Twardzik keeps popping in my head.

celtic fan wrote:soooo anyone who has a big moment in the finals and is a solid role player should be in the Hall of Fame. Isnt' that that the Hall of pretty good/average or the hall of I played on a winner?

FYI the Big E fouled out of Game 7 of the finals with 10 mins to go and the Bullets still won the title.

Role players are a huge necessity to succeed, but they don't belong in the Hall of Fame for accepting their role and coming up big in a few important playoff games. They deserve a thanks from the teams fans and a ring. That's how I feel about it.

Then again I also feel there's more than a few guys who don't belong in the Hall already and made it by association of being fortunate enough to play on a winner or put up gawdy numbers on a bad teams.

"It's all about balance"

I agree about balance.

And maybe "role player" was the wrong phrase. My point was that there are people who should be in the HOF besides the signature superstars. Tommy and Cooper weren't superstars, but they were big-time NBA players and had great careers. You know Tommy's story, and Cooper was DPOY once, and perennial first or second team All-defense for a decade.

And Horry was a very special player- a role player only in the sense that he wasn't a superstar. He hit so may game winners in the playoffs that it became expected after a while. There's never ben a more clutch shooter under similar circumstances. You're entitled to whatever opinion you have, but in my world, guys who are crucial contributors to winning seven rings (on three different teams) go to the HOF.

willjr wrote:BSH, for some reason the 1969-70 basketball season and the ABC TV network is scratching at my brain. Looking forward to the answer of this puzzler.
PS. Don't know if this is in any way related to your question but I remember as a kid the NBA on ABC having a halftime one on one contest, JoJo and Lanier advanced to the finals and Lanier used his size to wipe the floor with JoJo. Does anyone else recall this? How about the halftime horse contest, which then Phoenix Sun Paul Westphal won. Don't remember who he beat in the final but for some reason Dave Twardzik keeps popping in my head.

Will your memory serves you well !!!! You are absolutely (well not absolutely, but pretty damn close to being) right.


It was the '72 Finals, after the Lakers won 33 straight games during the season, then won the title with Wilt, West and Goodrich leading the way.

At halftime of of the series-clinching game 5 vs the Knicks at the Forum, the finals of the NBA one on one contest featured Jojo and Lanier, with Keith Jackson and Russ doing the commentary. With their size difference, Jojo vs Lanier looked like something out of ancient Rome, and as you remember, it wasn't really a fair matchup. Jojo acquitted himself well, but Lanier was just too big.

I didn't see it back when, but they showed the game (including the halftime one on one game) on tv in LA last fall. The whole one on one concept was such a trip. It was kind of shocking to see. I can't imagine it being the halftime entertainment for a Finals game in the current era.

I'd been meaning to post about it since last year, but had forgotten until I saw the other Jojo White thread.

Congrats on nailing it Will. I don't have any prizes but you get kudos from me on the board.


Cheers,

BSH

Thanks BSH. One of my (few) attributes is that I have been blessed, and sometimes cursed, with a great memory. When others tell me that they recall some obscure event from the distant past that I've some dim memory of it makes me feel great, then I know that I'm not imagining things and slipping into some kind of pre-senility delirium.

willjr,

How about the lazy man's free throw bonus, 3 to make 2? When did they stop that, the late 70's?

I think there was a 3 on 3 contest as well aroudn that time.

Dbrown,

You're right. I think it was just a one-year series. Two 3-man teams played up to 10 baskets or something like that. And a celebrity member joined two NBA players on each team. I can't recall the third team member, but Sam Jones and Robert Conrad (from Wild Wild West) were on a losing team. It was after Sam had retired but while he was in pretty good shape, so I'd peg it in the early 70s. Or maybe Sam just stayed in great shape a lot longer than I thought.

The Other Sam

bsh -
i can't help it - i'm a Robert Horry fan. be quiet, and don't tell. i've tried to keep it my own little secret for a long time. i know it's wrong, but i can't help it.
i've tried counseling, self-help books, EST and listening to a variety of knowledgeable basketball people, but even though i've really tried, i haven't been able to get over respecting Ragin Robert and his big-game, long-range daggers.
over and over again, he showed me such clutch shooting that i have to admire what he brought to the game.

as a person, though, i have to add that his judgment to lay that rediculous and (to my mind) completely uncalled for hard foul on Nash will always bother me. the antithesis of class.

but he was lights out in big game after big game. i have to give him props.

Michael

PSSST - also a Worthy fan. don't tell a soul. i trust my secret is safe here !

Sam,

That was just about where I came into the NBA world, about 1973. I would have been 10 at that time. For some reason, I thought the 3-on-3 was more mid-to-late 70's, but I may be off. I tried googling it but I get the modern day NBA 3 on 3 contests. Perhaps a good trivia question for the exact year nonetheless. Any tape/footage on it?

bigpygme wrote:bsh -
i can't help it - i'm a Robert Horry fan. be quiet, and don't tell. i've tried to keep it my own little secret for a long time. i know it's wrong (especially on this board?), but i can't help it.
i've tried counseling, self-help books, EST and even listening to a variety of knowledgeable basketball people, but even though i've really tried, i haven't been able to get over respecting Ragin Robert and his big-game, long-range daggers.
over and over again, he showed me such clutch shooting that i have to admire what he brought to the game.

as a person, though, i have to add that his judgment to lay that rediculous and (to my mind) completely uncalled for hard foul on Nash will always bother me. the antithesis of class.

but he was lights out in big game after big game. i have to give him props.

Michael

PS - also a Worthy fan. don't tell a soul. i trust my secret is safe here !

Michael. Your secrets are safe with me. No worries.


I was an Horry fan in Houston, loved his game in LA, and was still a fan in San Antonio.

Dbrown,

You're probably right on the rough timing. I know Sam wasn't in top shape, although I played golf with him well into the 70s and I can't believe he hd gained a pound. Actually, when I saw him late last year or early this year, the same thing was true. And he's still playing golf at something like age 76. His membership at one course gives him entree to 11 others, so he's a happy golfer.

Sam

Whats the haps sky?

Jeb,

How are things going?

Sam

jeb65 wrote:Whats the haps sky?

Hey buddy-

I'm doing great. How are you ?

I had given you a shout out in another thread somewhere, but I can't remember where. Glad you're back.

How was the rest of your summer ?