Schroder or Pritchard?

Hello, dboss, Usually I find your logic compelling, but with Schröder? The better he is, the better shooter, the better teammate, the stronger the case to trade him? We could say the same about the Js, (although I wouldn’t). I think this team has 5 key players: JT, RW, JB, DS and MS. Schroeder arrived last, a gift from LA. After spending millions to be disappointed with GH, KI and KW, I can’t understand why we can’t pay less to get so much more. I don’t understand the economics the way you guys do, but as a simple longtime fan, I see more potential and Ubuntu in this year’s team than at any time since 2008. Schröder is more than a cog in this engine IMHO; he’s a spark plug and it seems he bleeds green. Go Celtics! Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:Hello, dboss, Usually I find your logic compelling, but with Schröder? The better he is, the better shooter, the better teammate, the stronger the case to trade him? We could say the same about the Js, (although I wouldn’t). I think this team has 5 key players: JT, RW, JB, DS and MS. Schroeder arrived last, a gift from LA. After spending millions to be disappointed with GH, KI and KW, I can’t understand why we can’t pay less to get so much more. I don’t understand the economics the way you guys do, but as a simple longtime fan, I see more potential and Ubuntu in this year’s team than at any time since 2008. Schröder is more than a cog in this engine IMHO; he’s a spark plug and it seems he bleeds green. Go Celtics! Hawk

The difference between the 2 Js and Schroder is that the Js are signed for the long haul. Short of some clever finagling or Schroder walking away from a whole lot of money, there is no way he plays for us next year. Too bad but that's a fact. We can only extend him for about 7.2M. That's less than half what he has made the last few years. For a player in his prime to walk away from that kind of money would truly be a miracle. Maybe, but I doubt it. And if it could be worked out that we could give him 15M+ on a new contract next year, where do we get that money? Trading him doesn't look very promising either. What do we get in return? His salary is 6M, which isn't going to buy much in the way of a comparable starting PGs. We might get a promising young PG but would another team give up a promising PG. Or maybe we get something in a three way trade. But it sounds iffy.

I've asked before and don't recall seeing an answer: If we did trade him, would the other team have the same 20% extension raise limit? Seems like they would. Could they waive him and sign him to a new contract at $15M? So could we?

hawksnestbeach wrote:Hello, dboss, Usually I find your logic compelling, but with Schröder? The better he is, the better shooter, the better teammate, the stronger the case to trade him? We could say the same about the Js, (although I wouldn’t). I think this team has 5 key players: JT, RW, JB, DS and MS. Schroeder arrived last, a gift from LA. After spending millions to be disappointed with GH, KI and KW, I can’t understand why we can’t pay less to get so much more. I don’t understand the economics the way you guys do, but as a simple longtime fan, I see more potential and Ubuntu in this year’s team than at any time since 2008. Schröder is more than a cog in this engine IMHO; he’s a spark plug and it seems he bleeds green. Go Celtics! Hawk

Hawk

It's all about the benjamins

We are highly unlikely to retain him because he will not resign for a little over $7 million per.  Even if we could offer up the full MLE he aint signing for $10 million.  He's worth at least as much as Marcus Smart signed for.  The better he plays for the Celtics the more valuable he becomes as a trading chip.  He knows he blew an $80 million pay day and will be looking to secure his future and that of his young family.

I really like Dennis and wish that we could keep him but we are going to lose him at the end of this season with zero compensation so why wait to lose him?

The Celtics still do not look like a championship level ballclub this year so we have little to lose in moving him other than an earlier exit from the playoffs.

I hear you, dboss. It would take some unusual dealing to keep him, like Horford willing to play for less, on the path to becoming an assistant coach in his waning years, or an owner willing to cough up a few more Benjamin’s…I think this year’s team has potential, and I see no one we could not beat in the east, including the Nets, if all are healthy.
What we’ve seen is just a glimpse at how good these guys can be: a tentative start, uneven performances, to be expected with a new coach, new system, and JB’s nagging injuries. Schröder is a real talent, as his teammates know, and trading away real talent in mid season is tantamount to raising the white flag, IMHO. Go Celtics! Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:I hear you, dboss. It would take some unusual dealing to keep him, like Horford willing to play for less, on the path to becoming an assistant coach in his waning years, or an owner willing to cough up a few more Benjamin’s…I think this year’s team has potential, and I see no one we could not beat in the east, including the Nets, if all are healthy.
What we’ve seen is just  a glimpse at how good these guys can be: a tentative start, uneven performances, to be expected with a new coach, new system, and JB’s nagging injuries. Schröder is a real talent, as his teammates know, and trading away real talent in mid season is tantamount to raising the white flag, IMHO. Go Celtics! Hawk

Even if we had more money we would still be limited in what we can offer him. We do not have full bird rights. The NBA trade deadline is Thursday, Feb. 10. The Celtics play a total of 32 games between now and Feb 8th. Bare with me a minute here. If Boston went 20-12 in those 32 game they would be 33-23 or 10 games over .500. If that puts us in position to be at least #4 in the ECF or real close to it, then maybe you just roll the dice. Some team in that top 4 is going to go out early. That happens every year. Boston could survive a 4/5 matchup. They could end up being the neighbor who finds themselves in a position to pick through the belongings of an evicted tenant.

Hawk in sum, nothing is set in stone. If Boston is rolling then they deserve the best opportunity to finish the season with Dennis Schroder even though he will likely be wearing another uniform next season.

The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline. Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out. The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO. Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

gyso

I am not as certain about that.  If  the team is still floundering at the deadline  why would we keep him?  I doubt the Celtics will concern themselves with another bad look.  If a contending team losses their starting point guard they may be more then willing to make a deal.  Think of it in terms of utility value.  If Dennis has a chance to play for a contending team and enhance his market value he would not be oppose to the move.

You are ready to take a trip, the bags are packed and the reservations are all set.  But your car is now inoperable and you cannot get it repaired in time so your solution is to secure another mode of transportation.  Since it would be a last minute situation the cost is likely to be excessive but the trip is important enough to pay the price.  

Under those circumstances the Celtics could get a first rounder out of the deal and since they are not
in a position to retain Dennis after next season AND if the team is not looking like they can come close to finishing the race, you make a deal.

In any event there is time for Boston to ponder the Schroder decision. My hope is that the team is playing really good and well positioned to make a run with Dennis in the mix.

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

The more I think about it the more I think both resign and trade are unlikely. Resign is unlikely for the obvious reasons. But trade also seems unlikely unless he is packaged with someone who has a much bigger contract. Otherwise we will not get much in return and the other team is saddled with the same extension problem. I hope that Pritchard can get more minutes as the season goes on. I wonder how Yam Madar is doing. Are there other desirable PGs that will be FAs next summer?

atcross wrote:

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

The more I think about it the more I think both resign and trade are unlikely. Resign is unlikely for the obvious reasons. But trade also seems unlikely unless he is packaged with someone who has a much bigger contract. Otherwise we will not get much in return and the other team is saddled with the same extension problem. I hope that Pritchard can get more minutes as the season goes on. I wonder how Yam Madar is doing. Are there other desirable PGs that will be FAs next summer?

On second thought I guess I could see another team that was looking to clear salaries at the end of the year might be inclined to trade for his expiring contract. But they would have to offer something of more value than an expiring contract to us.

atcross wrote:

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

The more I think about it the more I think both resign and trade are unlikely. Resign is unlikely for the obvious reasons. But trade also seems unlikely unless he is packaged with someone who has a much bigger contract. Otherwise we will not get much in return and the other team is saddled with the same extension problem. I hope that Pritchard can get more minutes as the season goes on. I wonder how Yam Madar is doing. Are there other desirable PGs that will be FAs next summer?

Atcross

If you are the Celtics you would be looking to hold the other team's feet to the fire. The understandable scenario would have to involve a team that is in contention and needs a starting quality PG because they lost their PG to injury (not wishing injury to any player ) Boston could take back comparable salary for even a useful idiot and focus on getting a first rounder out of the deal.

If we are not in a position to go deep with him this year and are unlikely to retain his services next year then the alternative would be to move him before the deadline and get something of value in return.

We have not talked much about PP or our young prospect overseas. As we can see, PP can shoot the ball but his PG skills remain a work in progress. Schroder's length and quickness has really stood out to me. We will still have Marcus next season. PP could be effective but he is not getting to the cup like DS. Yam may give us some of that off the bounce quickness. I think that the Celtics will bring him over next summer and if he performs well he will be on the team.

dboss wrote:

atcross wrote:

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

The more I think about it the more I think both resign and trade are unlikely. Resign is unlikely for the obvious reasons. But trade also seems unlikely unless he is packaged with someone who has a much bigger contract. Otherwise we will not get much in return and the other team is saddled with the same extension problem. I hope that Pritchard can get more minutes as the season goes on. I wonder how Yam Madar is doing. Are there other desirable PGs that will be FAs next summer?

Atcross

If you are the Celtics you would be looking to hold the other team's feet to the fire.  The understandable scenario would have to involve a team that is in contention and needs a starting quality PG because they lost their PG  to injury (not wishing injury to any player ) Boston could take back comparable salary for even a useful idiot and focus on getting a first rounder out of the deal.

If we are not in a position to go deep with him this year and are unlikely to retain his services next year then the alternative would be to move him before the deadline and get something of value in return.

We have not talked much about PP or our young prospect overseas.  As we can see, PP can shoot the ball but his PG skills remain a work in progress.  Schroder's length and quickness has really stood out to me.  We will still have Marcus next season.   PP could be effective but he is not getting to the cup like DS.  Yam may give us some of that off the bounce quickness.  I think that the Celtics will bring him over next summer and if he performs well he will be on the team.

Schroder and Hermangomez have a combined salary of 13M. Schroder would be gone next year and JH has one year left. I could see a cap clearing team having interest in that deal. Just a question of if the other team had something of enough value to us. Still think it's unlikely but any suggestion of a player on a cap clearing team we might want for 13M?

atcross wrote:

dboss wrote:

atcross wrote:

gyso wrote:The team may decide to keep Schroder for the entire season, regardless of our record at the deadline.  Then they can see if the million to one shot of resigning him cheaply for a couple more seasons to build up his Bird Rights and pay him later plays out.  The team just needs to be careful and not get caught making any contractual promises out in the open.

Trading Schroeder before the deadline kind of has a bad look, IMO.  Any additions that can be made to the team at the deadline can be made by using one of the TPEs and/or by trading away other less important assets.  

The more I think about it the more I think both resign and trade are unlikely. Resign is unlikely for the obvious reasons. But trade also seems unlikely unless he is packaged with someone who has a much bigger contract. Otherwise we will not get much in return and the other team is saddled with the same extension problem. I hope that Pritchard can get more minutes as the season goes on. I wonder how Yam Madar is doing. Are there other desirable PGs that will be FAs next summer?

Atcross

If you are the Celtics you would be looking to hold the other team's feet to the fire.  The understandable scenario would have to involve a team that is in contention and needs a starting quality PG because they lost their PG  to injury (not wishing injury to any player ) Boston could take back comparable salary for even a useful idiot and focus on getting a first rounder out of the deal.

If we are not in a position to go deep with him this year and are unlikely to retain his services next year then the alternative would be to move him before the deadline and get something of value in return.

We have not talked much about PP or our young prospect overseas.  As we can see, PP can shoot the ball but his PG skills remain a work in progress.  Schroder's length and quickness has really stood out to me.  We will still have Marcus next season.   PP could be effective but he is not getting to the cup like DS.  Yam may give us some of that off the bounce quickness.  I think that the Celtics will bring him over next summer and if he performs well he will be on the team.

Schroder and Hermangomez have a combined salary of 13M. Schroder would be gone next year and JH has one year left. I could see a cap clearing team having interest in that deal. Just a question of if the other team had something of enough value to us. Still think it's unlikely but any suggestion of a player on a cap clearing team we might want for 13M?

Interesting!

You know Hernangomez contract for next season is not guaranteed.  I believe only $899,000  is guaranteed. (on 6/22/2022 fully guaranteed for $6,632,880)

I had not thought about a multi-player trade.  I have no idea who is looking to dump salary.  If a team was looking for a competitive piece Dennis could be that guy.  If we suck come 2/10/22 fans probably would not get bent out of shape if we moved Dennis.  We got 32 games before we have a decision to make.  As gyso pointed out maybe we exercise one of the TPE's to add something to the team and still keep DS.

If Celtics management believes that we can kick down the door into the ECF Dennis will be on the team and maybe another positional player or specialist is added.

All speculation of course.