PLAYOFFS 2011 POST GAME MIAMI GAME 1

A few things:

Even though Paul should have known better, I don't like the double T's on Wade and Paul. Even if Paul did curse at Wade and maybe deserved another T, I think the ref has to be patient and think about the bigger picture. Paul was probably still upset from the hard foul by Jones, so 1 minute later, I think he could have kept the whistle in his hand, separated them and made a clear warning that this nonsense will not be tolerated any longer.

Miami clearly outplayed Boston and the end result was not from the referees. Boston's defense on Jones was almost non-existent. They had a double digit lead for almost the whole game. Boston was flat and will be better in game 2. LeBron will probably have a better game 2 also.

Mike Breen is probably the most unbiased/middle of the road announcer that there is in the NBA. Boston beating NY has nothing to do with the way he announced yesterday. I have listened to Breen since the mid 1980's when he was Don Imus' sports update guy on WFAN. He is not overly charismatic but probably my favorite NBA announcer. I do miss some of the aspects of the game that former players or coaches bring to broadcasting that Breen doesn't have.

Based on the flagrant foul rules, JO's should have been a flagrant, Jones should have been a flagrant and Wade's should not have been. James should not have been given a T but for some reason the officials by default usually T up both guys. Doc is wrong about the Wade play. I have never seen a flagrant called on a guy running through a screen especially since Paul barely flinched when Wade ran into him.

Below is the rule about flagrant fouls. JO's foul was not part of rebounding or fighting through a screen, it was a cheap-shot, unnecessary shoulder to a player running through the lane.



Flagrant Fouls: These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant fouls, 1 and 2. A flagrant 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player swings and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a swinging motion, hard contact, and a follow through. Both fouls carry a penalty of two free throws and the team that was fouled retains possession. A flagrant foul 2 also results in an ejection of the player committing the foul. A player also is ejected if he commits two flagrant foul penalty 1’s.

tjmakz: by the rules it can be called a flagrant I am sure.


Do you think Allen ever gets bumped running around? Should he fall when he does? Will there be flagrants called then?

Let's not forget the West-Chalmers incident. West gets a well deserved T for throwing the ball at Chalmers. The thing is that Chalmers does retaliate as he talks back and shoves West before they're are broken up. However, no T on Chalmers is called.

If you're going to give double T's on Pierce-Jones and Pierce-Wade then how do you not give one here?

West T...1 ft

JO flagrant 1...2 ft's and then a 3 by Bibby from the top of the key (5 pt play)

PP-Jones...no flagrant 1 called. Instead, it's a double T. Correct call should've been flagrant 1 on Jones and a technical on Pierce.

PP-Wade...no flagrant 1 called. Instead, it's a double T. Correct call should've been flagrant 1 on Wade, as his elbow was much more vicious than JO's, and nothing on Pierce.

If TJ is correct...then lets just have Big Baby RUN OVER Wade in Game 2. I mean, there is nothing illegal about that - right TJ?

C's also had two defensive 3 seconds T's called and an offensive violation when Pierce set a screen for Aleen out of bounds, which only happened because James pushed Pierce from the back.

James Jones 10 Ft's taken. KG 0.

Total FT's:

Miami 32
Boston 18

The Celtics lost the game with their poor play...but the 3 blind mice with whistles did their part to ensure the Heat had the advantage all day.

swedeinestonia wrote:tjmakz: by the rules it can be called a flagrant I am sure.


Do you think Allen ever gets bumped running around? Should he fall when he does? Will there be flagrants called then?

All players get bumped. If Paul got shouldered running through the lane when the ball was 30 from the hoop, don't you think he would have went down? I think JO's shoulder knocked him off balance and he fell to the ground. It clearly was unnecessary contact that was not in the "heat of the play".

Bottom line the C's did play poorly.......................and the refs certainly had a BAD/OFF game too. Yet the C's were still in the hunt into the 4th.

Hard to keep takin it to the hoop when you don't get calls, then you find yourself taking jumpers.........and missing to many of them.

Basically the only stat line the Heat won was from the foul line. FG% too but only because the Heat took 9 less shots both teams made the same #.

The fuse has been lit and I just got this feeling that the next game will be interesting on many fronts.

beat

beat

mrkleen09 wrote:Let's not forget the West-Chalmers incident. West gets a well deserved T for throwing the ball at Chalmers. The thing is that Chalmers does retaliate as he talks back and shoves West before they're are broken up. However, no T on Chalmers is called.

If you're going to give double T's on Pierce-Jones and Pierce-Wade then how do you not give one here?

West T...1 ft

JO flagrant 1...2 ft's and then a 3 by Bibby from the top of the key (5 pt play)

PP-Jones...no flagrant 1 called. Instead, it's a double T. Correct call should've been flagrant 1 on Jones and a technical on Pierce.

PP-Wade...no flagrant 1 called. Instead, it's a double T. Correct call should've been flagrant 1 on Wade, as his elbow was much more vicious than JO's, and nothing on Pierce.

If TJ is correct...then lets just have Big Baby RUN OVER Wade in Game 2. I mean, there is nothing illegal about that - right TJ?

C's also had two defensive 3 seconds T's called and an offensive violation when Pierce set a screen for Aleen out of bounds, which only happened because James pushed Pierce from the back.

James Jones 10 Ft's taken. KG 0.

Total FT's:

Miami 32
Boston 18

The Celtics lost the game with their poor play...but the 3 blind mice with whistles did their part to ensure the Heat had the advantage all day.

BBD takes charges all the time from guys running into him, have you ever seen any of them called a flagrant? No you haven't.
Flagrant calls are NEVER made on a player running through a screen unless he raises his ams near the head of the player setting a screen.
Paul didn't come close to being knocked over from Wade running into him, in fact Wade got the worst of that one.

KG did not deserve to get to the FT line. 0 offensive rebounds and 0 FT attempts. He did not play aggressively.

If a player throws a ball at another player, they always get a T.

Getting bumped over is more a matter of if you want to be or not...

BBD take charges from the guy with the ball, the offensive player. Wade did not have a ball and was not an offensive player.

I do not think Wade should have been called for a flagrant but I also do not think Pierce should have been called for a T (or Wade for that matter).

Looking at the replay of the Jones/O'Neal situation it looks like it was very well enhanced by Jones. The problem with calls when they start getting very picky with the rules is rarely the calls in themselves, it is more how consistent they are in calling them.

Video of the flagrant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamFzPmeApg

Hi,
Regarding flagrant fouls yesterday.
JON's wasn't. I watched it a few times: he clearly bumped Jones trying to prevent him getting into a good position. Such plays happened many times through out a game. Unfortunately perception was as if JON tried to ram Jones with his shoulder.
Foul on PP was clearly flagrant: (a)Jones came hard on PP after the whistle and (b) he had no intention to go for the ball.
Foul by DWade was clearly intentional. If you watch the replay it's clear that his target was center of PP's chest about 2 steps prior of collision.
IMO, DWade did it to not get into PP but out of frustration that he lost RA again.
So, if we are talking flagrant fouls, unfortunately, Mia got lucky.

AK

tjmakz wrote:BBD takes charges all the time from guys running into him, have you ever seen any of them called a flagrant? No you haven't.

HUH? So now drawing charges (on a player with the ball) is the same as a defender (without the ball) trying to run through a screen? Talk about apples and oranges.

tjmakz wrote:Flagrant calls are NEVER made on a player running through a screen unless he raises his ams near the head of the player setting a screen.
Paul didn't come close to being knocked over from Wade running into him, in fact Wade got the worst of that one.

So now the fouls are determined on who gets the "worst of it"? The fact that Pierce is strong and more physical than Wade means NOTHING. Wade intentionally tried to run him over. The fact that he failed, is totally beside the point.

tjmakz wrote:If a player throws a ball at another player, they always get a T.

And if a player pushes that player and escalates it, he too should get a technical. Same as the Pierce Jones play.

Surprised you can even see the game through those purple shaded glasses there TJ

tjmakz

Cannot disagree with you more. Have listened to him as well with Immus and his sports reporting with WFAN, NY. Comparing him with his professional earlier work in his career and now is like comparing apples to oranges...no connect. Immus pushed for Breen to get the Knick's announcing job as well as his gig with the NBA and national TV.

Since assuming the Knick's job he became a "Homer" which is ok, just like Tommy is with the Celtics...but on national TV he brings an edge to his announcing when it comes to the "Arch Rival" Boston Celtics. The way he comments, the tone of his voice is all one sided against the Celtics when calling national games featuring the Celtics.

It's not my observations but countless others who say the same thing when watching Celtic games called by him...and most are not Celtic fans.

I'll give you one game......last week Knick's/Celtics that he announced......I was shocked and at first was not even sure it was him and the other two idiots announcing but he finally gave Boston their due from the very beginning.

Sorry, just don't see it your way.

112288

TJ:

So Breen got his start with Imus! WOW! That tells me all I need to know!-He should have gooten a real job with Howard Stern. Maybe Howard would have let him sample some of the HOT Strippers. Maybe he could have even dated Robin Quivers before Mr X! (LOL)

MD!

Pierce might has well have had a big red X right on his chest. Players are suppose to "try" to avoid picks but you can clearly see Wade went right at him. After the first pick by PP just gets a piece of Wade, then Ray reverses and goes back and PP sets the second Pick and Wade clearly sees him and just basically runs flat into him, NO attempt whatsoever to avoid the pick. None.

Just appeared to be target practice for Wade.

Refs blew this one.

beat

Breen was a graduate of Fordham University in the Bronx along with Michael Kay the TV announcer for the NY Yankee's. His sports reporting with Immus was more of a commical stick - goofing on teams and players. He worked college games and WNBA to gain some notoriety before getting the Knick's job with Immus's help.

112288

kleen,

Show my 1 video clip of when a player runs through a screen and it was called a flagrant foul. What did Jones to to escalate the confrontation with Pierce? Stand there?
The force of a foul can often determine if it is a flagrant foul. If Paul was there and had his head turned and was smashed, then yes, it could have been a flagrant.
Last week Westbrook ran into a blind pick at the half court line and when he hit the offensive player he fell like a house of cards, while the offensive player setting the pick didn't flinch because he saw it coming. If Westbrook would have barreled over the player setting the pick then a foul would have been called. So, yes, the severity of collisions are a factor in fouls/flagrant fouls.

112288,

Imus did not push for Breen to get the Knicks TV play by play job. He had been the Knicks radio play by play guy for 6 years and was offered the TV job when Marv Albert was fired.

I can't tell you how many times Celtics fans complain about ESPN, TNT, Kenny Smith, Reggie Miller, Mike Breen, Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Charles Barkley or anyone else that doesn't pick Boston to win a series or if their announcing/commentating is viewed as anti-Celtic.

You make some many vague generalities such as: Countless other non Celtics fans... and who were the other two idiots and how weren't they giving Boston their due? Was this after games 1 and 2 when Boston did not play well and they were lucky to win two close games at home?

I didn't listen to yesterday's game as a Miami or Boston fan, so I am not going to have a pre-conceived bias against the announcers.

112288 wrote:Breen was a graduate of Fordham University in the Bronx along with Michael Kay the TV announcer for the NY Yankee's. His sports reporting with Immus was more of a commical stick - goofing on teams and players. He worked college games and WNBA to gain some notoriety before getting the Knick's job with Immus's help.

112288

Try again. Breen was the Knicks radio play by play announcer from 1992. The WNBA didn't start until 1997.
He announced Fordham Rams games from the time he graduated college.

tjmakz wrote:kleen,

Show my 1 video clip of when a player runs through a screen and it was called a flagrant foul.

Fisher - Scola.

tjmakz

I'm talking TV exposure as an announcer not some chump change radio play by play position that is heard by 2 people on night watch in some warehouse, or a new league that no body watched in its early years!

He was so good that his position was given back to Albert in 1999 when he returned and only filled in for Albert as backup until 2004 when Albert was fired again and he won it in default.

He only took over on ABC in 2006 because Al Michaels left the net work. I'm sure he would have never seen the light beyond the Holland Tunnel if Michaels was still at ABC!

beat wrote:Pierce might has well have had a big red X right on his chest. Players are suppose to "try" to avoid picks but you can clearly see Wade went right at him. After the first pick by PP just gets a piece of Wade, then Ray reverses and goes back and PP sets the second pick and Wade clearly sees him and just basically runs flat into him, NO attempt whatsoever to avoid the pick. None.

Just appeared to be target practice for Wade.

Refs blew this one.

beat

my two cents is that's EXACTLY how i saw it too, beat.

least we were watching the same game !

on announcers - Hubie is head and shoulders the best the networks have. MJ and JVG really truly suck. Breen is a below average play by play man who is mostly on the set to be an MC between JVG and MJ, to goad them on and to chortle over their absurd, banal, incomprehensible and often off-topic repartee.

Michael

tjmakz wrote: What did Jones to to escalate the confrontation with Pierce? Stand there?

Talk about warped rationale. Jones stood there? You mean AFTER he came down on Pierce’s head with NO PLAY on the ball. That isn’t enough?

Typical Lakers fan…as Artest is famous for that crap. Pull a dirty play, and then stand there with his hands up like some choir boy. It is no wonder you see no harm in it, you see it 4 nights a week.

tjmakz wrote:The force of a foul can often determine if it is a flagrant

That is BS. The fact that Pierce is stronger than Wade means NOTHING to the fact that a foul is a foul. Another sad excuse for an explanation.

tjmakz wrote: So, yes, the severity of collisions are a factor in fouls/flagrant fouls.

Absolutely incorrect. NOWHERE in the rule book does it say that refs should take into account how hard to collision is, or how strong the player is when deciding on a foul or not. A moving screen is a foul – just like running through a screen is a foul. Period.
If Wade it too weak to deal with Pierce, he should stay out of his way. If he wants to intentionally run over people, he should get hit with a flagrant foul. Period.

swedeinestonia wrote:

tjmakz wrote:kleen,

Show my 1 video clip of when a player runs through a screen and it was called a flagrant foul.

Fisher - Scola.

That was not running through a screen.
Fisher turned, took one step and crushed Scola with his shoulder.
That was a 100% easy flagrant foul call.

I was hoping to see a discussion about game 1 and the series, but this is mired in a bottomless pit of complaints about refereeing and announcers. Oh my, calls didn't go your way. And announcers -- really?

Anyone interesting in discussing the actual basketball?

1. Offensive adjustments by the Celtics. Pierce will probably be fine, but they need to get production out of KG and Rondo. They can't rely on Ray carrying them all the time. Rondo needs to be aggressive but not press it. Penetrate and kick. Push it up the court a lot, even if it doesn't result in a shot. There was one play in game 1 when Rondo pushed the ball even though he didn't have numbers, and he kicked it to Pierce on the left side, who put up a shot that almost went in and got fouled. Two free throws, easy points, all by pushing the ball. Like I said, even if he winds up pulling the ball out and restarting the offense, pushing the ball is good. Then later, like the end of the first period or start of the second, take it to the hoop if there's an opening. For KG, run a couple of screen/rolls with Pierce to get KG early shot opportunities. Gotta get him in the game.

2. They need to recognize and stop any Miami role player who makes even two early shots. In their last two games, the Heat have gotten big games from two role players (20 by Mario Chalmers, 25 by James Jones). The Celtics can absorb high scoring from Miami's big three, but they're in trouble if someone else gets hot like that. They need to stay at home on any role player who even seems to be on a roll, even at the expense of not helping on Wade and LeBron.

3. Did anyone else notice that Wade and LeBron are playing much better together, not just settling for alternating isolations? I know that doesn't fit with the caricature of the Heatles as me-ballers, but it was noticable to me in game 1. The Celtics need to adjust by preventing whichever one of the two is off the ball from slashing uncovered. If they stop that action, they can get Wade and especially LeBron to revert to isolation plays, which is much easier to cover. And if they can do that to LeBron, his frustration level will rise dramatically, and he'll be much less effective. LeBron is more fragile than Wade, and getting in his head should be an objective.

Outside

Was it the lack of steps that was the difference or what?

112288 wrote:tjmakz

I'm talking TV exposure as an announcer not some chump change radio play by play position that is heard by 2 people on night watch in some warehouse, or a new league that no body watched in its early years!

He was so good that his position was given back to Albert in 1999 when he returned and only filled in for Albert as backup until 2004 when Albert was fired again and he won it in default.

He only took over on ABC in 2006 because Al Michaels left the net work. I'm sure he would have never seen the light beyond the Holland Tunnel if Michaels was still at ABC!

The Knicks on WFAN had the highest ratings in the country in any market. That is a little more then 2 people on night watch.
I see why Marv got his job back. He is a great announcer. That is not something that Breen needs to be ashamed of. It is a business decision.
Marv and Al Michaels are decades older then Breen. He had to work his way up the ladder and he has.

swedeinestonia wrote:Was it the lack of steps that was the difference or what?

Fisher's shoulder to Scola was done intentionally to knock him on his azz and he did.

Watch the the Fisher/Scola and the Wade/Pierce reply and the intent is not even comparable.

swedeinestonia wrote:Was it the lack of steps that was the difference or what?

Dont waste your breath Swede. Guy asked for an example, you gave him one - now he is changing his story.

Scola came up to set a pick. Fisher ran him over. Flagrant was called. Met every criteria TJ asked for....except for one. Him admitting he was WRONG.

Typical reply from a Lakers Troll.