Lakers done?

I said earlier this year that someone had to prove to me that the Lakers were not going to win the title and I thought that they still had the inside track. Dallas is about to prove it big time.

The Lakers are the champions until they are mathematically eliminated. That hasn't happened. Yet.

1. Bynum was extremely dominating. Perhaps the best game I've ever seen him play. Chandler fought hard, but he could not stop Bynum. 56 points in the paint for the Lakers vs 20 for the Mavs and much of that credit belongs to Bynum (kudos also to Odom). I was quite impressed with Bynum's ambidextrousness. Both of the Lakers' frontcourt starters are equally good with both hands. When Bynum's playing like this, he is one of the best centers in the league. If I had to choose, I think I'd pick Bynum over Howard except for one thing (2 things, actually) and that's Bynum's knees. I've heard all the arguments about how "there's nothing structurally wrong with his knees". I don't care if there is, if he's clumsy or if he's just the unluckiest person on the planet, shit always seems to happen to Andrew Bynum's knees. His knees are as old as mine even though his have been around for less than 1/2 the number of years mine has and that's not a good thing when they've got 280# jumping and dropping on them constantly.

2. Pau Gasol looked tired and out of sync. At one point Phil Jackson was screaming at Gasol during a timeout. SCREAMING. Gasol tried his best to get away from Phil, but you can't go very far during a timeout, so he just had to take it. I'm not sure I've ever seen Jackson scream at someone in a timeout, or anywhere else for that matter (I've heard him make snide remarks to the press about them, but I've never heard Phil raise his voice in anger directly at one of his players). The fans are booing Gasol, Jackson is screaming at Gasol. He can't be very happy in LA right now. He's going to be 31 in July and is on the payroll for another 3 years after this one for big bucks. Jackson may be fading into the sunset but Laker fans aren't. They better get right with each other because they'll be living together for quite a while still.

3. Lamar Odom also was playing great. Exploiting his length and speed. Outstanding game by the league's 6th man. If the discontent with Gasol runs deeper than I think, will they trade him and promote Odom to starter? I'm sure the Lakers could get a VERY high quality player for Gasol. Probably more than one, given his salary, and maybe the next coach will actually consider playing his bench. The Lakers have to be thinking about retooling, just like the Celtics.

4. I've never seen Kobe look so ineffective, old and slow. I saw a clear decline in athleticism in his game last night. I don't know if it's age, injury, fatigue or a combination of all three, but he wasn't his usual self.

5. Derek Fisher was Derek Fisher. This is to say he's dangerous if left open, feisty on defense and ridiculously too slow to guard just about any NBA point guard.

6. They got Matt Barnes to back up Artest and Kobe. What they forgot is that Phil doesn't like to play his bench. 11 ineffective minutes by Barnes meant that Kobe and Odom had to play more. The loss of Artest hurt them. Great teamwork by the NBA's Best Citizen. Way to go, Ron-Ron. I wouldn't be surprised if Lakers management clotheslines Artest in the offseason.

7. I can't remember if it was TJ or Outside or Babyskyhook that I was debating the value of Steve Blake vs Jordan Farmar earlier this season. I took Farmar, they took Blake. Looks like I was right. Blake's a younger Fisher except without the ice in his veins, the feistiness of his defense and the on-and-off court leadership. He just has Fisher's speed. Ouch. The Maverick's backcourt ate the Lakers' backcourt alive. Kobe's impact is supposed to be enough to offset any other backcourt deficiencies, but he couldn't carry them last night. 41 points (including the bench) by the Lakers' backcourt vs 44 by the Mavs. On the surface, that doesn't seem like that big a win for the Mavs, but when you consider what a major cog in the Laker offense Kobe is, it's a much bigger loss. I don't blame Kobe for not delivering a superhuman game, I blame his running mates for not stepping up and helping him. Jason Terry, in particular, killed the Lakers off the bench, highlighting the difference between him and Shannon Brown. A few highlight film plays by Brown, he showed good energy for a while, but Terry just opened the floor up with his shooting.

It ain't over until it's over. That goes for the Lakers as well as the Celtics, but it's not a good place for Laker fans to be right now. We better win today, or we'll be in the same place (almost, we'll still have another game at home before we have to worry about going to Miami).

bob

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bob,

Many good points. Very few I would disagree with.
I don't think LA wins game 4. They went all out to finish that game and could not get 1 stop on the defensive end when up 87-80. Dallas literally scored on every posession when down by 7.
Bynum was great and I was happy to see that he yelled at Phil that he wasn't coming out when he got his 4th foul.
All of the yelling, talking to, exposing in the media and pleading that Kobe and Phil direct towards Pau seems to be a lost cause. He does not have a "Black Mamba" part of his personality that Kobe wants/needs him to find.

Kobe did have a good game but I can't figure out why he doesn't take Kidd to the basket every single time Kidd guards him. Kobe settles for mid-range jumpers too often.

Steve Blake is not a make or break player for LA. They would be in no better position if Farmar was still on the team. Blake has had a very good career but not a real good year.

Going forward LA has many decision to make:
Are they going to start another year with Fisher and Blake as their point guards. I say no way. Not a chance.
Continue to start Artest? Probably but if he can't score then the new coach has to play his back up extended minutes.

LA has many undesirable long term contracts and have to decide if they will keep these players:
Luke Walton - 2 years, Fisher - 2 years, Blake - 3 years, Artest - 3 years

tjmakz wrote:bob,

Many good points. Very few I would disagree with.
I don't think LA wins game 4. They went all out to finish that game and could not get 1 stop on the defensive end when up 87-80. Dallas literally scored on every posession when down by 7.
Bynum was great and I was happy to see that he yelled at Phil that he wasn't coming out when he got his 4th foul.
All of the yelling, talking to, exposing in the media and pleading that Kobe and Phil direct towards Pau seems to be a lost cause. He does not have a "Black Mamba" part of his personality that Kobe wants/needs him to find.

Kobe did have a good game but I can't figure out why he doesn't take Kidd to the basket every single time Kidd guards him. Kobe settles for mid-range jumpers too often.

Steve Blake is not a make or break player for LA. They would be in no better position if Farmar was still on the team. Blake has had a very good career but not a real good year.

Going forward LA has many decision to make:
Are they going to start another year with Fisher and Blake as their point guards. I say no way. Not a chance.
Continue to start Artest? Probably but if he can't score then the new coach has to play his back up extended minutes.

LA has many undesirable long term contracts and have to decide if they will keep these players:
Luke Walton - 2 years, Fisher - 2 years, Blake - 3 years, Artest - 3 years

TJ,

Nice to see you again. Nice to see you show up and write something that isn't just contrary to the postings of Celtic fans here (regardless of how correct your rebuttal might be, and they were correct often enough to pay attention to). It just makes for a more pleasant exchange. I have great respect for your knowledge of the game. An occasional spoonful of honey makes the medicine go down more easily.

I don't know if the Lakers win game 4. I know a few Lakers want to (specifically Kobe, Bynum, Fisher, Artest (to redeem himself, if nothing else) and Odom) but, to be honest, I have some questions about the heart of some of the rest of the team. If the only Lakers that show up for game 4 are those 5, I'd have to agree with you. Those guys want to win game 4, draw strength from the Laker faithful in game 5, try to pull a victory out of Dallas in game 6 and then anything goes in LA for game 7. Gasol, Brown, Barnes, Blake...? I'm not so sure of their ganas.

Kobe's 32 and has little to no cartilage left in his knees. He's a tough guy, no doubt about it, but eventually your knees will win. They win, over time, everytime. If Gasol lacks the ganas (it's ironic that a Spaniard would lack 'ganas') to replace Kobe's, then who on the Lakers does? Bynum? Perhaps, but his health makes his longterm stability problematic. Odom? Nope, he's a damn fine player but isn't dominating enough to carry them on his back like Kobe and Gasol or even Bynum could.

Kidd's not a toothpick. He's 6'4" and strong. While he's not as fast as he was when he was younger, he's still quick enough to guard most SGs. Also, I think that jumpshooting is less stressful on your body than driving into traffic and posting up and Kobe's body is beat right now. Considering that Phil did a very good job of reducing Kobe's regular season minutes this season, this leads me to wonder if Kobe's closer to the end than most people think. If he's running out of gas in the second round, after a relatively easy season, how much more gas does he have left in the career tank?

Farmar's quicker. Farmar's a better defender against Terry. Farmar's better at creating his own shot. Farmar will run more, getting you easier points. If Farmar scores a couple more points (especially off of drives that produce fouls) and disrupts Terry enough to take away a few points, maybe LA wins this game. You may be right, though. If Phil doesn't play either of them big minutes, because that's not Phil's way, then swapping one out for the other won't produce that big a difference. That doesn't reflect on the relative value of the players, it reflect's on the coach's substitution patterns.

I don't see anyway the Lakers backcourt as Fisher/Blake next year. Their weaknesses have been too shockingly revealed and exploited.

I'd expect Walton to accept a buyout and retire. I like Walton as a player more than a lot of my Laker fan friends do, but I think his body is telling him it's time to go. Unmentioned are the contracts of Brown and Barnes. Next year they are in their last year of their contracts (technically, they're "team options", but I expect the Lakers to pick them up). Depending upon the new salary cap (and the movement, or lack of, Artest and perhaps others) they either become trade bait as well or they will be resigned to contracts (probably multi-year) which would complicate retooling even more for the Lakers than you've suggested.

bob

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Well, I know that my take on this doesn't resonate with many but I think that what kills a team like this is that after playing so much basketball over the last 4 years these guys are mentally exhausted... They are having trouble at critical times staying on the same page and focusing. They still have all the physical talent but can't focus it when they need to...IMHO.

LACELTFAN wrote:Well, I know that my take on this doesn't resonate with many but I think that what kills a team like this is that after playing so much basketball over the last 4 years these guys are mentally exhausted... They are having trouble at critical times staying on the same page and focusing. They still have all the physical talent but can't focus it when they need to...IMHO.

laceltfan,

We'll see if you're right today, at about 11 pm EDT.

bob

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Bob and TJ,

The two thing that will never desert Kobe are shooting ability and desire. But it seems to me that he's having to pace himself more than in the past.

I've always felt there are two ways the Lakers can win. (1) Kobe picks his spots to explode, while his teammates are actively immersed in the game so that everyone is contributing to nearly the max. (2) Kobe takes over the game and does so at such a high level that it doesn't matter whether his teammates are standing around a lot of the time.

Option 2 seems a remote possibility at this point in Kobe's career. Option 1 could be very consistent with Kobe's pacing himself, except that Bynum and (for the most part) Odom seem to be the only teammates with their heads in the game.

For both the Celtics and Lakers to be on the ropes at this juncture would have been considered a remote long shot when the season started. For the apparent reasons to include a substantial mental component in both cases would have been unthinkable.

There's certainly more than just a mathematical chance that the Celtics can turn it around starting tonight. And, if the Celtics were to shock the Heat, I believe a large portion of the impetus would include all this time off, which the Lakers have not enjoyed. It looks as though the Lakers would require a team pilgrimage to Lourdes in order to have a realistic shot at making the next round.

Sam

sam wrote:Bob and TJ,

The two thing that will never desert Kobe are shooting ability and desire. But it seems to me that he's having to pace himself more than in the past.

I've always felt there are two ways the Lakers can win. (1) Kobe picks his spots to explode, while his teammates are actively immersed in the game so that everyone is contributing to nearly the max. (2) Kobe takes over the game and does so at such a high level that it doesn't matter whether his teammates are standing around a lot of the time.

Option 2 seems a remote possibility at this point in Kobe's career. Option 1 could be very consistent with Kobe's pacing himself, except that Bynum and (for the most part) Odom seem to be the only teammates with their heads in the game.

For both the Celtics and Lakers to be on the ropes at this juncture would have been considered a remote long shot when the season started. For the apparent reasons to include a substantial mental component in both cases would have been unthinkable.

There's certainly more than just a mathematical chance that the Celtics can turn it around starting tonight. And, if the Celtics were to shock the Heat, I believe a large portion of the impetus would include all this time off, which the Lakers have not enjoyed. It looks as though the Lakers would require a team pilgrimage to Lourdes in order to have a realistic shot at making the next round.

Sam

Lourdy, lourdy, lourdy.

Now in retrospect that first game was huge. It gave all the momentum to Dallas and they never looked back. If the Lakers would have won it would have been like the first two games against the Knicks, close but still a W.

They lost the game but more importantly they lost their confidence.

swede,

I don't think LA has much confidence right now.
If LA gets down in game 4, I can see them giving up mentally and getting blown out as they did in game 6 of the 2008 Finals against Boston.

I have to give the credit to Dallas. There were so many posessions in last nights game that I said to my son that LA couldn't have played any better D, but Dallas hit contested shot after shot. Even though I am not a big Mark Cuban fan, I love his passion and what he has done for Dallas and for the NBA so I will be happy for him if they move onto the Western Conf Finals.

Outside of the first 8 games of the season and the 18 after the all-star break, LA has not played real good ball this year. They absolutely have to get younger and quicker. If you had to look at the best teams going into next year, I would have to put Miami, OKC and Memphis (with Rudy Gay) all near the top. That is no coincidence since they all have young, athletic and talented players. I understand Sam's point of not being so obsessed with athletes but we can see that the mileage on KG, Kobe, and others is making an impact on their games. They can shine for parts of a game but they can no longer go all out all game like they used to. Westbrook, Wade, LeBron, Rondo, Durant, Conley, Ibaka, Rose, Noah, etc, those guys can still push for 48 minutes if they need to.

Fantasy trade proposal between LA and Boston: Just a little fun so don't take this too seriously. Because of Bynum's knees it would be too much risk for Boston but wanted to hear your thoughts.

Boston re-signs Delonte West. Probably starts at PG.

Boston trades Rondo and JON to LA for Bynum, Blake and Caracter.
Boston gets a couple of draft picks too.

I meant the first game of the series. It just killed them.

TJ, I would take that trade in a New York minute! Lets see if we can get Danny and Mitch on the Phone. I love Bynum and don't think that is knee issues will be a career killer. Young joints and modern medicine can do wonders for players. If Gale Sayers or Joe Namath suffered those same injuries today they both would have come back as good or better than new with todays medical advances and procedures. I think that Bynum is going to have a long career and I personally would not trade him for Dwight Howard, especially when you consider that everyone sees Howard as so much better than Bynum and would demand more Laker assets to "even out" the trade. There is no doubt in my mind that as we speak Bynum is a better and more skilled offensive player than Howard, the numbers don't show that because he is not the focal point of his teams offense but I think that if he was he could/would easily average 22-25 ppg and 10-15 rebs.

it's not over 'til it's over. I will not believe Kobe will give up until the last second. so stop counting them out until they are out. They are the champs until they get beat. period.

TJ,

There are so many possible disclaimers in any response that it boggles the mind. The knees, the effects of a lockout, and possibly even Rondo's back are only a few. So it's only in the spirit of playing the game that it's kind of fun to respond with even a bit of seriousness.

I suspect you're including Caracter, Blake and draft picks to make the hypothetical trade more appealing to board members. But, in reality, I've heard a lot about Caracter without seeing any real evidence of his potential. After watching some of these Lakers-Mavs games, I'd say that including Blake in the deal would penalize the Celtics. Perhaps that's too harsh. Maybe he'd blossom in a different system, and he does have some defensive skills and allegedly is not bad from the perimeter. So maybe I'm talking myself into being willing to take him off the Lakers' hands. My guess is that the Lakers will always find a way to be near the top of the pack, so the draft picks wouldn't mean a lot to me.

Essentially, it would seem to be a player-for-player deal, arguably involving two players around whom the respective teams could be reloading. (I hate the term "rebuilding" because that suggests starting from scratch, which would not be the case for either team.) Traditional wisdom involves constructing a team around a really good big man rather than a really good little man. Moreover, this seems to be an era in which really good PGs are more plentiful than really good big men.

So it seems to me that knee concerns would represent the only logic for Mitch to consider trading Bynum for Rondo.

One fascinating aspect of this mythical deal would be how both players might acclimate to their new surroundings. I think of the Celtics as more of a lunchbucket team with greater halfcourt potential and the Lakers as more of a glamor team with greater uptempo potential. And I could make an argument that Bynum could be more comfortable with a lunchpail, halfcourt team and Rondo with a glamor, uptempo team.

So it could be that the deal might bring out the best in both of them. Which is what any good trade should do. I've always detested the notion of some fans that the objective of a trade should be to fleece the other team.

I don't know whether any of this makes sense, but it probably doesn't matter since the entire concept involves fantasy.

Interesting, though.

Sam

By the way, I perused three Lakers message boards just to see what the mood was. And, although great disappointment was registered, it wasn't as zany as I expected. In fact, there was about the same amount of dogged support to the end that I'd anticipate on this board. And the same amount of criticism of "Mitch Cupcake" (that one slayed me) as I've already heard about Danny. "Cupcake should have blown up the team before the season started." "Yeah, blowing up a repeating champion makes a lot of sense."

But, as might be expected, the greatest amount of vitriol was reserved for Pau. I always thought people in LA were very creative, but I can't fathom why they missed out on coining the term "Gashole" in favor of lame stuff like "Gasoft."

Anyway, I'm now ready for about anything in what I hope is the very unlikely chance that the Celtics will lose tonight.

Go Celtics!

Sam

If you are like me Sam, there is nothing in your mind that will allow that thought to enter. I feel there is no way they lose tonight, I look for a great defensive game and finally, Pierce and Allen to break out. Keep the faith
Celtic fans, we will be 2-2 by Monday night~

Rosalie, Your psychic ability is right on. Keep on prophecizing Lady Fatima!

As for the Lakers., I simply cannot imagine them losing game 4. No way will Kobe or Phil allow that. With Artest back, Odom coming off the bench, and Pau looking to save face, I see them rallying for the win...only to lose the series. I may hate the Lakers, but I still respect them.

I was wrong on 2 counts about the Lakers. They did lose in 4, and they don't deserve respect - not because they lost but because of their needless flagrant fouls. Punk. Punk. Punk.

Lakers showed they're true colors, what bunch of lame ass punks, had to hit the littlest guy on the floor too.....can't wait for somebody to really put Bynum in his place.

I very much respect what the Lakers have accomplished in the NBA, they are the second best franchise in the sport. But I have to admit- God I love watching them get pummeled, only the Celtics winning is better than the Lakers losing in all of sports for me. Okay I'm a crazy Celtic fan, guilty as charged.

Kobe and Pau went out like champs...Bynum and Odum went out like chumps. Thats it for Phil. Father time is going to catch you sooner or later I admit to being shocked at how soon it all went down the crapper for the Lakes.
There is something bad wrong in that locker...it's all going to come out.

Whoever comes out of the west and unless it's the celts in the east it's time for a new champ.

Artest seems to have infected Bynum and Odum with his malevolent unsportsmanlike spirit. Yes losing sucks, but to lose without grace and dignity sucks worse.

So what happens to the thugs Odum and Bynum? Season is over can't suspend them this year. Or I suppose you could for the first (X) games of the next season (whenever that is) and of course there will be a fine. Hope it gets there attention and is more than just a slap.

Like to see them suspended for the next 2 playoff games they get to with whomever that may be. Let them play during the season knowing they will have to sit their arses in at least the first 2 (maybe more) playoff games.


beat

I guess I was wrong too, I couldn't imagine they would turn so bad so fast.
This was one dirty, dirty team out on the floor. Bynum could have really hurt Barera today, that was one of the dirtiest plays I have ever seen. They deserve whatever fines, suspensions, etc that come their way. I almost felt sorry for Kobe (you notice I said ALMOST)!! What a way to lose.

Oh well, the bookies are licking their chops in Vegas tonight!!