WELL----THEY DID IT, FIRST TWO WEEKS CANCELLED

by **RosalieTCeltics** Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:07 pm

Now, how many more games will be lost? Doesn't sound too promising

by **RESO** Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:55 am

Argh! No it doesn't sound promising at all. Hopefully there will be part of a season, the sooner the better...

by **beat** Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:05 am

RESO

I remember you from our breakfast encounter a couple years ago. Hopefully when the losses hit both the owners and the players terms will be reached. In the meantime sort of pointless to "worry" ( or insert word to fill your thought) about it. It is what it is. We could make it political and blame it on ______. Again fill in the blank.

Watched to 2008 Celtic DVD and dang we won again!!!

beat

by **Sam** Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:45 am

Hey RESO, nice to see you on the board. Great avatar, by the way. I hope all is well with you.

Sam

by **MDCelticsFan** Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:25 pm

The longer the lockout/strike goes, the more fans the NBA will lose. Right now the majority of the country is so football crazy they just don't care about the NBA, and won't until after the Super Bowl and March Madness. Football, and its' commissioner want to tighten their stranglehold on the country's fixation with the NFL. The 18 game season, coming in 2 years will effectively negate and force Stern to move All Star weekend either earlier before the football playoffs, or later sometime in March which will conflict with the NCAA Mens and Womens tournaments. The disturbing trend started by James, Wade & Bosh to congregate on one team to amass championship rings forecasts a league where power will rest in LA, Miami, New York & Chicago with the rest of the teams falling into second amd third tier teams. This is why the owners must stand firm and make the players realize they are nothing more than labor. Hard cap, with shorter non-guaranteed contracts are essential for equality to bust the intended super power teams. If the NBA continues along its' present path, I'd sooner see it cease to exist. If fans in Minnesota, Utah, Golden State, and Milwaukee among others have no real shot at a title, why should their fans buy tickets to games, or buy the team merchandise. When the Celtics dominated in the 50's & 60's it wasn't due to collusion, or buying talent, it was because Red Auerbach was smarter than his counterparts. I hope the players are crushed and made to realize they are lucky to have the opportunity to play a game to make a living, rather than sweating in a steel mill, or working on a trash truck like one Larry Joe Bird did for a year before his journey to Indiana State.-MD!

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:53 pm

I really feel these owners are not going to give in to the players, no matter who comes forward or what they have to say. Have you read Bill Simmon's reaction to the players who are coming forward pushing for the players to stand firm and not give in to the owners? It is kind of interesting. He writes for ESPN, I think if he had a conversation with you MD, you both would be in agreement.

Me? I just want to watch basketball! I do feel that there are many overpaid
players in the league, and many more trying to hold up owners with their supposed "up side".(Big Baby)????

You are right about one thing, Red was so much smarter than most of the men he played against. He outsmarted them all and came away a big winner almost every year.

by **bobheckler** Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:58 pm

Here's the Bill Simmons column Rosalie was referring to. He also vents a bit about the Red Sox at the end.

Enjoy.
bob

If it's all right with you, I would like to make it through this week's NFL Picks column without mentioning …

A. The indefensible NBA lockout. You should never miss games (and paychecks) without a really good reason. In 2004-05, hockey had a good reason: They had a blue-collar sport with white-collar costs, leaving them a business model that was unsustainable. The NBA has a totally sustainable business model — it just needs to be tweaked. What's happening right now isn't "tweaking." It's like fixing up your family room by swinging a wrecking ball through it.

B. Two weeks (and counting) of canceled NBA games. And as we're finding out, nobody except die-hard NBA junkies care. Everyone else? They're more than happy to keep watching pro and college football through the holidays, deal with their fantasy teams, gamble on games, eat up the dozens of talking-head shows, read the hundreds of football-related blogs/columns and figure out who's making the playoffs and BCS Championship Series. But seriously, keep up the "tree falling in the NFL forest" routine and keep losing all your momentum with casual fans after one of the five best seasons in NBA history, Everyone Involved In This Indefensibly Dumb Lockout.

C. The agents, who escaped this debacle relatively unscathed because just about every person covering the NBA counts at least two or three agents among their best sources — sorry, it's true — and also, it's easier to vilify the visible lockout characters (David Stern, Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher, etc.) over the ones who helped block any real progress from happening because some of them cared as much about protecting the ceiling of their next 25 years of commissions as they did about preventing their current players from missing paychecks.1

Will the players ever understand that part? Will they ever understand that agents are not — all caps: NOT — always their friends in a situation like this? Or that there's a real chasm right now between the agendas of the best agents (the ones who rep the LeBrons and Durants and want to keep the ceiling of contracts as high as possible) and the grinders (the ones who want to protect the middle-class guys and keep the midlevel exception intact), and over everything else, that's why Billy Hunter is acting like he's being drawn and quartered right now? Or that this chasm, as well as the festering (and more-public-than-they-should-be) issues between Hunter and the agents, have conspired to make Stern's owners believe, "We just need to cancel some games and their entire side will eventually implode?" A group of extremely bright people seemed to have outsmarted themselves here — by trying to make things better, they made things worse. Again, the players don't seem to realize this.

D. The players, almost all of them millionaires or multi-multi-multi-millionaires, who had the gall to start a "Let Us Play" social media campaign earlier this week and expected America to feel sorry for them during the recession. We're supposed to trust their collective judgement after that display of fecal fireworks?2

Hey, players? Go research the 2008 Writers Strike, when the writers overvalued three things: their own worth, the concept of supply and demand and the future of Internet revenue (which was five years away from truly being figured out). If you remember, those writers missed four-plus months of paychecks and allowed Hollywood to reset its entire system so it was more favorable to studios and production companies. That's where you're headed. And by the way, you're taking no accountability whatsoever for all the guys who got overpaid. Nobody on the planet thinks Travis Outlaw should make $35 million over five years, or Rashard Lewis should make $23 million this season. If your sport is handing out those deals, something went horribly wrong. This needs to be fixed. There's a reason Leo DiCaprio makes 20 times more for a movie than his buddy Kevin Connolly. People pay to see stars. Nobody pays to see role players and middle-class guys.

Of course, the players' union would never accept this — it's made up of mostly role players and middle class guys. Those guys want to protect what they have. And what they have is a system that overpays them. Which, by the way, is the biggest reason we're having a lockout. The owners are fine with paying LeBron $20 million a year; they just don't want to pay James Posey $7 million a year. They are trying to save themselves from themselves. The players won't help them. Their attitude is, "Just don't sign those dumb contracts then." But the owners have proven — flagrantly and embarrassingly over these past few decades — that they can't freaking help themselves. They want more protection. They want more checks and balances. And you know what? In this case, they're right. What the players need to realize is that it's bad for them to be overpaid. When someone like Josh Childress is mailing in a big deal that he never should have gotten to begin with, it makes fans resent the players and their sport. Do they care? Do they see the big picture here? Doesn't seem like it. That's why we need shorter contracts, and that's why we need more checks and balances to prevent the owners from pulling a Plaxico on themselves. Sometimes it's not all about "getting the most you can get." I'd love to hear a veteran player admit that publicly. Just once.3

E. Billy Hunter, the overmatched head of the players union, who showed no urgency whatsoever this spring, acted stubbornly for reasons that were only clear to him, refuses to acknowledge the change in consumer habits (and keeps pretending that the NBA's business from 2012 to 2022 will look exactly like it did from 2001 to 2011), showed no ability to pull off a give-and-take negotiating session, and basically seemed petrified to think outside the box for eight solid months. We knew in February that we were headed for D-Day. Where was the urgency? Why did everyone seem so blindsided this week when games were finally canceled? And why do I keep hearing from connected/smart/knowledgeable people within the sport that Billy knows he can't get a better deal than the one the owners offered last week, only he doesn't want to accept it now because he knows that — if he does — the players union will fire him afterwards for caving, which means he'll lose his lucrative ($2.5 million per year) contract? If that's true, that means Billy would rather lose everyone else's paycheck over his own. I really hope that's not true. Just know that's what people are whispering, Billy.4

F. Kevin Garnett, who inexplicably turned into Norma Rae these past few weeks and led the charge to fight the fight and stand strong … without, of course, ever mentioning that his agent was savvy enough to defer a significant amount of money from his last contract extension so that he still has fresh money coming in this season (unlike 95 percent of the players), or that a 50-game regular season would be absolutely perfect for his aching knees, or that losing two months of 2011-12 money might help him with his next contract because he won't break down during a shortened season (increasing the odds that he'll get one last lucrative extension next summer).

Should someone who's earned over $300 million (including endorsements) and has deferred paychecks coming really be telling guys who have made 1/100th as much as him to fight the fight and stand strong and not care about getting paid? And what are Garnett's credentials, exactly? During one of the single biggest meetings (last week, on Tuesday), Hunter had Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce and Garnett (combined years spent in college: three) negotiate directly with Stern in some sort of misguided "Look how resolved we are, you're not gonna intimidate us!" ploy that backfired so badly that one of their teams' owners was summoned into the meeting specifically to calm his player down and undo some of the damage. (I'll let you guess the player. It's not hard.) And this helped the situation … how? And we thought this was going to work … why?

Congratulations, players — you showed solidarity! You showed you wouldn't back down! You made things worse, and you wasted a day, but dammit, you didn't back down! Just make sure you tell that to every team employee who gets fired over these next few weeks, as well as to all the restaurant and bar owners near NBA arenas who are taking a massive financial hit through the holidays. I'm sure they will be proud of you.

G. The owners, who wanted to miss two months of games all along and even went as far as investigating this summer how they'd legally go about filling their arenas during nights when they "had" NBA home games in November and December. (The answer: You can't schedule other events in your arena without violating labor laws. But if you want to schedule a musical act for two nights before a home game, then "play it by ear" and "add" a third night at the last minute — wink, wink — that's ostensibly legal.) These guys are prepared to reset their system, break the players and reposition themselves for the rest of the decade, when attendance revenue will continue to slide in the HD/Internet/Fun-To-Be-Home Era and small-market teams will continue to suffer without contraction or revenue sharing (neither of which can happen without a more favorable CBA). There was no chance they were playing 82 games this year. It was a charade.

And yes, I'm still waiting for the owners to take some accountability for all the horrific contracts they handed out — especially the ones from the summer of 2010, when they knew a lockout was coming and couldn't help themselves from shelling out indefensibly dumb deals like they were 30 Charlie Sheens unable to stop themselves from snorting coke off a stripper's navel because the stripper lay down naked, cut the lines herself and said, "Here." And then they have the gall to cry poverty? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh-kay.

(In case you're wondering, there is no "good" side in this disgrace of a battle. It's like the end of War Games when the computer realizes that there's no way to win a nuclear war because everyone will blow up. That's what we're watching. Everyone is a loser, everyone should be ashamed. Everyone.)

H. David Stern, the commissioner of a 26-team league with 30 franchises, who can't seem to understand why they're not making money. Gee, I wonder, David. That's a real head-scratcher. Once considered the greatest commish ever,5 Stern could have gotten creative about ways to change the revenue stream, protect the owners, incentivize overachieving players, add a play-in tournament for the 8-seeds, get sponsored jerseys, merge two struggling teams, take advantage of the Chicago market (by adding a second team there) and any other idea that could have prevented us from missing games, and instead, just did the second grade bully routine of "You have too many cookies, I WANT SOME OF YOUR COOKIES!" before finally bending to a reasonable place these past two weeks. But too much damage was done. Now it's a staring contest and a dick-swinging contest. Nobody wins. Everyone loses.

I have been writing this for three months and I will write it again: The fair and logical compromise if we're not contracting (and we should) would be a 50/50 BRI split, four-year max deals for contracts, the elimination of sign-and-trades, a reduced midlevel exception (I think it should be chopped in half), some sort of luxury tax to penalize anyone who spends 15 percent more than the cap and one Larry Bird exception per team (so that teams have a built-in advantage to keep their best player). I promise you, that's where we will end up — there's no real imagination to it, either. We're missing games to get there. Possibly an entire season. And it's playing out that way for a variety of reasons, but mainly because the players can't accept that owners are terrified about where attendance revenue is going (the whole reason this is happening); owners can't accept that players simply don't trust their numbers, intentions or judgment; and both sides waited too long to get serious.

I am profoundly pissed off. In case you couldn't tell. But you know what? I'm in the minority. Most people are watching football … and will continue to watch football … and will continue to watch football … right through the holidays. When fans don't ultimately care if your season started two months late, maybe you DO need to break the system and rebuild it. Then again, it's hard to fathom how a league coming off a 10 Finals rating that has 75 percent of America's most marketable professional athletes needs to blow things up. What a traveshamockery. Speaking of traveshamockeries …

I. The media-smear campaign of Terry Francona that followed the Red Sox collapse (and played out just like Manny's smear campaign, Nomar's smear campaign, Pedro's smear campaign, Damon's smear campaign …. ) Here's the sad thing: We all knew it was coming. That's just how the current regime works. I wrote about it three years ago in my Manny Being Manipulated piece — these particular owners manipulate the media better than anyone Boston has ever seen. Only in 2011 did the locals finally catch on, and only because the Boston Globe decided to play up Terry Francona's failed marriage and medicine cabinet in an extended feature about the Red Sox's collapse … in a story that, of course, didn't point fingers at Theo Epstein or anyone who ran the Red Sox.

What worries me going forward: I can't imagine why any marquee free agent would want to sign with this franchise, run it, or manage it when the whole "We will SHANK YOU if this doesn't work out" message has been clearly established by the owners. Would you want to work for these guys? Only if they grossly overpaid you, right? (Carl Crawford is nodding grimly right now.) I can't believe I'm hoping the three guys who saved Fenway Park and brought us two titles will sell … but shit, I actually want them to sell at this point. It's like having your team owned by the Judge, the creepy old guy who sits in the dark in The Natural, only if you multiplied him by three, made him media-savvy and gave him a house organ (in this case, the Boston Globe) to print anything he wants. Enough is enough. Sell. Nobody trusts you any more.

J. Francona, who got handed a free pass for his woeful performance in 2011 because that smear-campaign piece will be the first thing anyone remembers … and that's a shame, because when you start a season 2-10, finish a season 7-20 and break the records for "Most weight a starting rotation gained during one regular season" and "worst camaraderie on a baseball team that won at least 90 games" along the way, those memories should endure. At least a little. It couldn't have been a worse way to end things in Boston, although it doesn't taint 2004 and 2007 in any way (at least for me). I will remember Terry Francona as the guy who managed my team when we did something that — for most of my life — I spent an inordinate amount of time worrying they would never do. So what if it ended badly? Remember Coughlin's Law? Everything ends badly, otherwise it wouldn't end. I'd love to see Francona take Tim McCarver's job — partly because he's great on TV, partly because I don't want to see him manage anywhere else, and partly because that would mean someone took Tim McCarver's job. Whatever happens, best of luck to the best Red Sox manager of my lifetime.

K. John Lackey.

L. Josh Beckett.

M. Jon Lester.

N. Chicken.

O. Beer.

P. Video games.

Q. Jason Varitek, whose "C" on his jersey apparently stood for "C nothing, do nothing."

R. Theo Epstein, who finally fled for the Cubs and probably regrets not fleeing six years ago. Right move, right time. He turned a no-win situation into a no-lose situation with the upside of "If I win in Chicago, I become one of the three or four most famous baseball executives ever." So what if he left behind a Red Sox franchise that's in shambles and came off like a college coach ditching a program for a better job right as it's about to get penalized by the NCAA? I wish him the best. Here's hoping he remembers in Chicago what made him special (finding undervalued guys, avoiding expensive free agents in their 30s and building a quality farm system) over what eventually doomed him (spending money more recklessly than Jerry Bruckheimer).6

S. The irrefutable fact that it's been fun to have the dysfunctional and semi-incompetent Red Sox back in my life — kind of like seeing your extended family at a wedding for the first time in ages and remembering how crazy everyone is. Hey look, there's my nutty uncle who thought the world was going to end because of Y2K and built a bomb shelter! And there's my slutty cousin who agreed to be a surrogate mom, then had the baby and disappeared with it and got arrested! Welcome back, Weird Part of My Life. I hate myself that things feel more normal when the Red Sox are fucked up than when they're not. What does that say about me?

Again, I don't want to talk about any of those things and I'm really glad we didn't.

by **beat** Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:24 pm

Derrick Rose's 2 cents

Rose blames owners for NBA lockout

Oct 15,

CHICAGO (AP)—Derrick Rose(notes) says blame for the NBA’s current labor impasse rests squarely with team owners, not players.

“It’s very sad, but everybody knows it’s not our fault,” the Chicago Bulls point guard and reigning NBA most valuable player said Saturday. “If it was up to us we’d be out there playing. I think that is wrong and I know they could easily take care of it.”

The 23-year-old Bulls star talked about the lockout and his training regimen during downtown appearances introducing a new adidas shoe line.

Rose said the NBA lockout, which has wiped out training camp, exhibition games and the early port of the regular 2011-12 season, has been frustrating.

“They (the owners) aren’t thinking about anything that we’re saying,” he said. “They’re not taking into consideration (anything) that we’re trying to give them. We’re just going to have to see how it goes.”

Rose said a partial regular season seemed a likely scenario.

“It is,” he said. “(But) I can’t say nothing about it.”

NBA commissioner David Stern wiped out the season’s first two weeks and has threatened to also cancel the league’s showcase Christmas Day games.

Rose said he continues to work out despite the lack of organized practices that training camp would provide.

“I’m working on my post game, sharpening my shooting, dribbling and all that stuff,” he said. “I’m just trying to get better as a player, get smarter. I definitely want my basketball IQ to get better.”

Rose led Chicago to an NBA best 62 regular season victories last season. The Bulls were eliminated by Miami in five games in the Eastern Conference finals. He averaged 25 points per game on the way to league MVP honors.

“We had a great year last year and for us not to have a season this year or taking so long to come up with a deal I think that is wrong,” he said.

Rose is not only endorsing, the new adidas adiZero Rose2 line, he’s using the footwear.

“I work out in these every day,” he said. “I will be playing him them.”

He made Saturday appearances at a Michigan Ave. shoe store, then greeted several hundred fans at a State St. Footlocker outlet where some fans reportedly camped out overnight to meet the Chicago native.

Rose was later scheduled to play some basketball with selected youths at the James Jordan Boys and Girls Club on the city’s West Side.

______

Everyone? Thinks it's the owners fault..... and we think the earth is flat too I suppose.
Nice DR.... your as friggin BLIND as a bat. And perhaps stupid as one too.

At this point I really don't care if they ever play again let them (players) loose the whole season. Perhaps they should have gotten a degree while in college like most who attended did.

beat

by **MDCelticsFan** Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:41 pm

If there are no Christmas Day basketball games, the NFL has only on night game on their schedule that day. Maybe some college footbal, or perhaps a last minute switch in scheduling to show some college basketball. Also, the new agreement should penalize the owners at a higher rate for going over the hard cap with payroll. $5 to every $1 a team goes over the limit. I think if contracts are not guaranteed, there would be fewer one and dones in college, since a college degree would be something to fall back on in case an injury or similar unforseen circumstance curtailed an athlete's career.

by **bobheckler** Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:56 pm

beat,

It's the owners fault for not giving the players what they want because the players just want to play ball (as long as they get the deal they want)? Right. As I've stated repeatedly I'd like to punch them all in the mouth (not KG, because he'd punch me back, and probably not Ray Allen because he's a gentleman) but I can't help but wonder how many truly myopic fans out there swallow this self-serving pap whole.

On another note, can you imagine Derrick Rose with a postup game? Scary.

The Patriots are doing well and the Niners are surprising the crap out of everyone. I'm not giving up, I'm just trying to refocus on the likely reality. As W used to say "the new normal".

bob

.

by **beat** Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:17 pm

bobheckler wrote:beat,

It's the owners fault for not giving the players what they want because the players just want to play ball (as long as they get the deal they want)? Right. As I've stated repeatedly I'd like to punch them all in the mouth (not KG, because he'd punch me back, and probably not Ray Allen because he's a gentleman) but I can't help but wonder how many truly myopic fans out there swallow this self-serving pap whole.

On another note, can you imagine Derrick Rose with a postup game? Scary.

The Patriots are doing well and the Niners are surprising the crap out of everyone. I'm not giving up, I'm just trying to refocus on the likely reality. As W used to say "the new normal".

bob

.

Bob

If Rose gets anysort of a post up game.....I say go for the knees, AKA Tanya Harding style.

As for the Pat's........ very interesting watching Dallas fold like a tent. Played 57 minutes of good football but with Romo's brain farts this year the staff wanted nothing to do with throwing for a potential first down and perhaps the chance to run out the clock. Instead they choose to make NE use up all their time outs and give friggen Brady the ball with 2+ minutes to go.

Yep Brady had a pedestrian type game to that point. Substandard for him by all means..... but damn it's like NOT walking Barry (steroid) Bonds with the bases loaded and your up a couple with 2 out in the ninth you just don't let the best player beat you period. So Romo throws a pick and maybe they loose anyway................. but three straight dives into the middle for what 3-4 yards? Good grief I am not a fan of Dallas by a long shot, always been a Giant fan since the YA Tittle days but good lord, Brady looked like a veg-o-mattic slicing and dicing that last drive. Leaving a paltry 22 seconds for Dallas to try something, then Romo throws the last play hail mary out of bounds to boot.

Would haved loved to be sitting/standing next to Jerry Jones those last 3 minutes. Of course he was probably down on the field anyway, And why can't he get nailed when players go flying out of bounds..... just wondering

beat

by **Sam** Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:00 pm

MD, how would someone go over a hard cap? Wouldn't that make it a soft cap by definition? Maybe I don't understand it correctly.

BobH, maybe we should start a thread on great post-playing PG of all-time. As far as offense goes, many times I watched Cousy fill in down low when Russell was in foul trouble or injured or resting. In fact, there was a period of time during the very early 60s when Cousy was arguably second only to Tom Sanders as Red's choice to back up Russ. And playing the best opposing forward meant that Satch was often in foul trouble. (He averaged between 4 and 7 personal fouls per 36 minutes during his career.)

When Cousy played the pivot, a passing and ambidextrous hook-shooting clinic (Cooz was better at hook shooting from everywhere than Heinsohn) often ensued. Guys his size had great difficulty containing him down there, although they generally had more luck than bigger guys who were frustrated in even finding Cousy in the Celtics' motion offense. So the best hope of slowing him down at the center position was to put a small man on him, which meant the Celtics didn't really suffer a height disadvantage much of the time Cousy was at the center position. Of course, their offensive rebounding game deteriorated somewhat when The Cooz played that position; but there were usually fewer available offensive rebounds due to shots from the center position than when Russ was in there. (And Cooz did average more than 5 RPG during his career, although the great majority were defensive.)

I know Magic Johnson played all five positions in one memorable playoff game during his rookie season, which meant he played center for a few minutes. Of course, Magic had considerable height going for him, and I have no knowledge about how well-suited his skill set actually would have been for the center position on a periodic, non-surprise basis.

Maybe some of our Lakers fans can enlighten me about whether Magic was a one-hit wonder at the center position or really did it on as much as a periodic basis throughout his career as Cousy did. I've noted many references to how Magic could play center, but I've never seen an allusion to any specific instance other than that one.

Sam

by **beat** Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:11 pm

Found this from a fan in Chicago....

Many thanks to Friend of Grantland Dave, who e-mailed editor-in-chief Bill Simmons this week to express some NBA-related ideas and rage. Good news, Dave! We love both ideas and rage here. We're publishing his e-mail (with minimal edits) below to share the anger. Thanks again, to Dave, who is kicking off our "reader e-mail rant" occasional feature.

If you have something you'd like to share with the class, feel free to contact us at triangle@grantland.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,

I'm not going to pretend to know everything there is to know about this lockout, but after tonight I know all I need to know. Simmons why you're not a Fan Consultant for the NBA yet I'm not sure. Your ideas always seem reasonable, impartial, and all about the game … and it's because you're a fan first which I appreciate and respect. So as a fan myself I came up with a few ideas of my own for the NBA, and wanna see what you guys at Grantland think …

1. Why do leagues wait until the collective bargaining agreement expires before negotiating a new one? They clearly need to start negotiating sooner (like six months sooner). Especially because unlike the rest of the damn world they're not used to working more than SEVEN HOURS IN A F*&%ING DAY. Are you kidding me? They gave up after seven hours of negotiating? Pathetic.

2. I don't trust Stern. If I see him smile one more time on the way into or out of a meeting I'm gonna break my 47" TV. I'm serious. I think his motives are questionable — he’s always been about globalization, so my conspiracy theory is players going overseas for a short time is probably a good thing in his mind. Yeah he loses half a season but he builds a fan base in several countries. Suspect if you ask me …

3. If games are canceled in the future (ever), I think the current commissioner, the representatives of the players' union, and the owners' representatives should all be removed from their positions. And they shouldn’t be able to hold these positions for five years after that. They clearly suck at what they do and are only in it to make a name for themselves.

4. We need fan representation in these negotiations. We’re the ones spending the money, tuning in, why not ask us what we think about the split? They’re an impartial third-party with everything to gain from a deal getting done. There should be a website that presents both parties positions and lets the fans vote. It doesn't need to be binding but it should be considered by both sides.

5. Where the hell has Cuban been during all of this? I tweeted at him a couple weeks ago to light a fire under somebody — WTF? I better not find out two months from now you've been spending all your time on the next season of Shark Tank.

6. Have we learned nothing from previous lockouts? Television ratings and ticket sales will decline after this (like they did in 1999-2000). Everything about the season (if it even happens) will now be diminished — the quality of play, the story lines, the playoffs, the champions. I want to know what the financial impact is of this thing. How much BRI is lost as a result of canceling these games? I hope a lot …

7. I just saw a Derrick Rose ad while writing this … fuck you Stern.

8. Stern was a B-student in History, and is a former attorney. Tell me how what about those things qualifies him as commissioner of the NBA? This is now back to back collective bargaining agreement breakdowns that resulted in games being canceled? The only thing that scares me more as a basketball fan than David Stern is his successor … Adam Silver. Guy seriously looks like he's never made a lay-up, or even attempted one.

9. Why aren't there third-party consultants or mediators involved? I mean each side should be able to make they're case for their position on the revenue split, but they all just see the dollar signs and that's it. And why can't the money be put the 7 percent or 3 percent or whatever's in dispute in escrow until they can come to an agreement? Or better yet, if the season is ready start, the gap that separates the parties (which I read somewhere was 3 percent or $120 million) should all go to charity. Split the baby or donate it to charity or something … and play ball.

10. I'm a litigation consultant for my job, and it makes me sick to see each side in these things get the best deal possible as opposed to a win-win resolution. No one compromises. Here's the difference though between dispute resolution and this lockout … there's more at play here than two greedy companies fighting over money. There's 30 recession-ridden cities full of people who want to come home during the week and get some enjoyment out of the game they love to watch. The NBA — where amazing happens … just not until 2012.

— Dave in Chicago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by **RESO** Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:34 pm

Dave in Chicago is a smart guy. I especially love his idea about donating the disputed percentage to charity.

by **bobheckler** Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:42 pm

Stern was the chief counsel for the NBA and negotiated the last CBA, that's how he got his job as commissioner. That would be the CBA that the owners are claiming is bankrupting them. Does that make sense, that he's still the commish after all these years with a CBA that the owners consider onerous? And don't even talk to me about Billy Hunter. He couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag. Bringing KG to the negotiating session with him is about as strong a statement about his qualifications as Peewee Herman bringing Luka Brazi to the movies. It makes him look like he needs moral support just to do his freaking job. Is he really so intimidated by Stern and a couple of owners he needs to bring his posse? KG, Pierce and LeBron combined have 3 years of college between them and none of them in finance, franchising or international marketing.

They don't start negotiating early because it's called chicken. It's about seeing who flinches first. Whose pain is greater with each cancelled game? My pain threshold is actually quite low and I flinch easily. That's why I'm watching football. I've never been a fan of college hoops (college is where you go to learn to do something, the pros is where you go when you've shown you've succeeded at that) but I could learn. Hell, maybe I'll take up needlepoint. The bottom line is: I don't need them anywhere near as much as they're assuming I do.

For what it's worth, though, I don't look like I've ever made a layup either (although I have) and I think I could do a better job than these losers. I at least have the good sense not to smile for the cameras when I fail, again.

bob

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by **bobheckler** Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:47 pm

sam wrote:MD, how would someone go over a hard cap? Wouldn't that make it a soft cap by definition? Maybe I don't understand it correctly.

BobH, maybe we should start a thread on great post-playing PG of all-time. As far as offense goes, many times I watched Cousy fill in down low when Russell was in foul trouble or injured or resting. In fact, there was a period of time during the very early 60s when Cousy was arguably second only to Tom Sanders as Red's choice to back up Russ. And playing the best opposing forward meant that Satch was often in foul trouble. (He averaged between 4 and 7 personal fouls per 36 minutes during his career.)

When Cousy played the pivot, a passing and ambidextrous hook-shooting clinic (Cooz was better at hook shooting from everywhere than Heinsohn) often ensued. Guys his size had great difficulty containing him down there, although they generally had more luck than bigger guys who were frustrated in even finding Cousy in the Celtics' motion offense. So the best hope of slowing him down at the center position was to put a small man on him, which meant the Celtics didn't really suffer a height disadvantage much of the time Cousy was at the center position. Of course, their offensive rebounding game deteriorated somewhat when The Cooz played that position; but there were usually fewer available offensive rebounds due to shots from the center position than when Russ was in there. (And Cooz did average more than 5 RPG during his career, although the great majority were defensive.)

I know Magic Johnson played all five positions in one memorable playoff game during his rookie season, which meant he played center for a few minutes. Of course, Magic had considerable height going for him, and I have no knowledge about how well-suited his skill set actually would have been for the center position on a periodic, non-surprise basis.

Maybe some of our Lakers fans can enlighten me about whether Magic was a one-hit wonder at the center position or really did it on as much as a periodic basis throughout his career as Cousy did. I've noted many references to how Magic could play center, but I've never seen an allusion to any specific instance other than that one.

Sam

sam,

If the definition of a "point guard" includes any guard that runs the offense more than the other guard on the floor with them, then I think I might have to go with DJ. With all due respect to Rapid Robert, I don't think I'd want to try score on nor have to guard DJ in the low post. Too big, too strong, too smart and way too good a defender.

bob

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by **RosalieTCeltics** Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:56 pm

I'm a big DJ supporter myself. I loved having him here in Boston. Cousy was a totally different kind of PG, offensive minded, fast, and he had eyes in the back of his head. To compare the two just isn't fair, DJ would definitely have overpowered Cousy many times, but it would have been interesting watching him try to blow past DJ!

by **bobheckler** Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:45 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I'm a big DJ supporter myself. I loved having him here in Boston. Cousy was a totally different kind of PG, offensive minded, fast, and he had eyes in the back of his head. To compare the two just isn't fair, DJ would definitely have overpowered Cousy many times, but it would have been interesting watching him try to blow past DJ!

Rosalie,

I don't think there's any doubt that Cooz could leave DJ in the dust, but this was about "post up game". DJ was the default PG since he wasn't as good a shooter as Danny, it made sense for the comparably sized Ainge to be the SG. So, I agree with everything you wrote.

bob

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by **MDCelticsFan** Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:56 pm

Rosalie:

No less than Larry Bird stated that Dennis Johnson was the finest player he EVER played along side.

MD!

by **Sam** Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:40 am

Bob,

I guess I was commenting more on PGs who have/had center-type skills. I think Cousy perfectly embodied that description on offense, and I've never ever thought of DJ in those terms.

When The Cooz pinch hit for Russell, virtually nothing had to change in the offensive plan because Cooz could duplicate Russ in posting and reposting up high or down low, could hook over anyone inside or outside, could go up and under (including no-look shots), could hit the 15-foot pop shot with regularity, could penetrate to the hoop with relative ease, and could pass extraordinarily—especially blind passes to back door cutters or sleight-of-hand flips or backwards bounce passes on the #1 double cut scissors play or inside passes to Heinsohn slashing in from the corner or inside-out passes to Sharman or Sam on the perimeter. As I said elsewhere, big men couldn't contain Cousy on offense, so his short stature wasn't much of a competitive problem over relatively brief periods of time because he normally had little men covering him.

I don't think Dennis' considerable skills would have lent themselves to smooth functioning in the post. Dennis' height and girth, while giving him significant benefits in the PG position, wouldn't have yielded a significant advantage in posting up because opponents would just have put bigger players on him.

I'm still curious about Magic's demonstration of center skills outside of that one playoff game.

As for Dennis playing vs. Cousy, I've pretty much had it with hypothetical matches of one Celtic with another Celtic. I'd prefer to stick with reality and leave the fantasizing to the geniuses who are "endeavoring" to unlock the lockout.

Sam

by **bobheckler** Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:14 am

I read this on Wednesday:

There is one development that could put some pressure on ownership and David Stern. City officials in Memphis are exploring legal action against the NBA for loss of revenue. FedEx Forum was built with tax money. Let's hope this effort gains traction and other cities follow suit.

bob

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by **beat** Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:58 am

bobheckler wrote:I read this on Wednesday:

There is one development that could put some pressure on ownership and David Stern. City officials in Memphis are exploring legal action against the NBA for loss of revenue. FedEx Forum was built with tax money. Let's hope this effort gains traction and other cities follow suit.

bob

.

Seems to me that they might have a legit case to sue. Especially where taxpayeres money was spent on an arena that was built to provide an NBA team with a place to play. Granted there are many other uses but the City would expect some sort of a return on the investment.

beat

by **beat** Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:00 pm

bobheckler wrote:I read this on Wednesday:

There is one development that could put some pressure on ownership and David Stern. City officials in Memphis are exploring legal action against the NBA for loss of revenue. FedEx Forum was built with tax money. Let's hope this effort gains traction and other cities follow suit.

bob

.

here is the piece

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Memphis-is-considering-suing-the-NBA-if-the-lock?urn=nba-wp9506

by **beat** Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:38 pm

Not a Stern fan but this is soooo out of line.

Wonder why anybody even listens to Bryant Gumball anymore?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2011/10/hbos-bryant-gumbel-calls-david-stern-a-plantation-overseer/1

Think the players make just a little bit more than a plantation worker. Just a little bit more.

And with so many teams LOOSING money.

Oh well.

beat

by **MDCelticsFan** Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:38 pm

I wonder just how much the city of Memphis is going to be losing per game for the length of the strike/lockout? Might the mayor and City Council of Memphis been a little more prudent to take out insurance in advance of the work stopage to be compensated for their tax payer-based losses based on average attendance for Grizzlies games last year at Fed Ex Forum?

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