Re: Non-Celtic Moves of Note

by **Outside** Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:58 pm

bobheckler wrote:The talk is they're still trying to pull off a blockbuster trade, albeit not necessarily with "the two players talked about" (that's a paraphrase of a statement made by Kupchak). Maybe they will. It appears to be the mentality/style of Dr. Buss' idiot son, Jim, to "go for broke". He didn't just want Paul, he wanted Paul and Howard. A noble ambition, but in the process he pissed off Lamar, and that cost the Lakers, and is currently holding his head in his hands.

It certainly is possible that Kupchak will pull off a trade, if Jim Buss doesn't screw it up ("idiot son" seems an apt description, considering his track record so far). It is incomprehensible that they would give away Odom for nothing to a chief conference rival and not have another move up their sleeve.

But fortune does indeed favor the bold, and going for broke is sometimes a necessary risk to get the greatest reward. Jerry Buss did that back in 1996 when they traded their starting center, Vlade Divac, to Charlotte for Kobe so that they could afford to pursue Shaq as a free agent. As Jerry West has related, Kobe was a prodigy at 17 but no sure thing, and they could easily have been stuck without a center if they didn't get Shaq, which appeared a reality numerous times during the negotiations. If they didn't get Shaq, they could've been a mediocre team for years, but the two Jerrys (West and Buss) went for broke and reaped the rewards.

Of course, going for broke includes the risk of winding up broke, and even if the plan now is to make a big move, if it doesn't work out, the Lakers could be out of the title picture for a few years with one supremely unhappy superstar.

I do think Jim Buss has shown himself to be a tool, but going for broke in this situation may be the right move.

bobheckler wrote:As far as the Clips go, I agree with you. They are loaded with talent, even without Paul. Griffin, Jordan, Bledsoe, Gordon, Kaman just to name a few pretty damn good players on that team.

Personally though, I'm going to hold my fire for a bit before I start saying they're the best team in LA. After all, they are still the Clips and the Lakers are still the Lakers. I realize that shouldn't have anything to do with what happens on the court, but the curse of Don Sterling is real and malevalent.

Don't forget they also added Caron Butler and Chauncey Billups. Billups threatened to be disgruntled if anyone claimed him on waivers, but the Clippers seem like a good situation for him, and he could make a big difference for them. Getting Billups is in a lot of ways better than trading for Chris Paul, because they get a quality point guard without having to give up anyone. They could be pretty darn good.

But Bob, you are correct - they are still the Clippers, and the Lakers are the Lakers. There was one year when the Clippers had a better record than the Lakers - 2005-06, when the Clips were 47-35 and the Lakers 45-37 - but the Lakers have an institutional attitude of winning and contending, the Clippers have an ingrained history of losing, injuries, and the lottery, and the difference is ownership. Jerry Buss built a top-notch organization willing to spend money and do what's needed to contend and win. Donald Sterling built a cheapskate operation whose primary directive is to line Sterling's pockets with as much money as possible while spending as little as possible. Maybe some of the Clippers bad luck is Donald Sterling's karma, but mostly it's from running an organization on the cheap.

Perhaps, maybe, it's possible that things are changing in Clipperland. Getting an exciting young core in Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan (all cheap on their first contracts) made Sterling amenable to spending more money to make more money. In years past, it would be unfathomable for the Clippers to get Caron Butler and match the Warriors' offer sheet for Jordan. But they seem committed to making those moves plus giving a hefty extension to Gordon (and Griffin when his time comes) -- again, un-Clipperlike moves.

But that still leaves Sterling's bad karma. Until the Clippers actually rise to their potential, avoid key injuries, and build on success like Oklahoma City, I'll be waiting for the Curse of Sterling to kick in.

by **Outside** Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:59 pm

The Warriors signed Kwame Brown for one year at $7 million.

Sigh...

by **tjmakz** Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:10 pm

It might be a little early to call Jim Buss a tool, idiot or failure.
He almost had Paul and another big for Gasol and Odom.
It has been said that LA had a second trade for a big man that would have been made immediately after the Paul trade was finalized.

The Lakers are worse now then they were a week ago.
A week from now I expect that I will say the Lakers are better now then they were a week ago.

Mitch Kupchak should receive just as much of the ridicule or credit for the Lakers current/future status as is given to Jim Buss.

by **bobheckler** Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:11 pm

Outside wrote:
bobheckler wrote:The talk is they're still trying to pull off a blockbuster trade, albeit not necessarily with "the two players talked about" (that's a paraphrase of a statement made by Kupchak). Maybe they will. It appears to be the mentality/style of Dr. Buss' idiot son, Jim, to "go for broke". He didn't just want Paul, he wanted Paul and Howard. A noble ambition, but in the process he pissed off Lamar, and that cost the Lakers, and is currently holding his head in his hands.
It certainly is possible that Kupchak will pull off a trade, if Jim Buss doesn't screw it up ("idiot son" seems an apt description, considering his track record so far). It is incomprehensible that they would give away Odom for nothing to a chief conference rival and not have another move up their sleeve.

But fortune does indeed favor the bold, and going for broke is sometimes a necessary risk to get the greatest reward. Jerry Buss did that back in 1996 when they traded their starting center, Vlade Divac, to Charlotte for Kobe so that they could afford to pursue Shaq as a free agent. As Jerry West has related, Kobe was a prodigy at 17 but no sure thing, and they could easily have been stuck without a center if they didn't get Shaq, which appeared a reality numerous times during the negotiations. If they didn't get Shaq, they could've been a mediocre team for years, but the two Jerrys (West and Buss) went for broke and reaped the rewards.

Of course, going for broke includes the risk of winding up broke, and even if the plan now is to make a big move, if it doesn't work out, the Lakers could be out of the title picture for a few years with one supremely unhappy superstar.

I do think Jim Buss has shown himself to be a tool, but going for broke in this situation may be the right move.

bobheckler wrote:As far as the Clips go, I agree with you. They are loaded with talent, even without Paul. Griffin, Jordan, Bledsoe, Gordon, Kaman just to name a few pretty damn good players on that team.

Personally though, I'm going to hold my fire for a bit before I start saying they're the best team in LA. After all, they are still the Clips and the Lakers are still the Lakers. I realize that shouldn't have anything to do with what happens on the court, but the curse of Don Sterling is real and malevalent.
Don't forget they also added Caron Butler and Chauncey Billups. Billups threatened to be disgruntled if anyone claimed him on waivers, but the Clippers seem like a good situation for him, and he could make a big difference for them. Getting Billups is in a lot of ways better than trading for Chris Paul, because they get a quality point guard without having to give up anyone. They could be pretty darn good.

But Bob, you are correct - they are still the Clippers, and the Lakers are the Lakers. There was one year when the Clippers had a better record than the Lakers - 2005-06, when the Clips were 47-35 and the Lakers 45-37 - but the Lakers have an institutional attitude of winning and contending, the Clippers have an ingrained history of losing, injuries, and the lottery, and the difference is ownership. Jerry Buss built a top-notch organization willing to spend money and do what's needed to contend and win. Donald Sterling built a cheapskate operation whose primary directive is to line Sterling's pockets with as much money as possible while spending as little as possible. Maybe some of the Clippers bad luck is Donald Sterling's karma, but mostly it's from running an organization on the cheap.

Perhaps, maybe, it's possible that things are changing in Clipperland. Getting an exciting young core in Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan (all cheap on their first contracts) made Sterling amenable to spending more money to make more money. In years past, it would be unfathomable for the Clippers to get Caron Butler and match the Warriors' offer sheet for Jordan. But they seem committed to making those moves plus giving a hefty extension to Gordon (and Griffin when his time comes) -- again, un-Clipperlike moves.

But that still leaves Sterling's bad karma. Until the Clippers actually rise to their potential, avoid key injuries, and build on success like Oklahoma City, I'll be waiting for the Curse of Sterling to kick in.

outside,

A lot of "going for broke" means knowing when to hold'em and knowing when to fold'em. Jerry Buss has shown he knows how and when to do that. His son, so far, certainly has not.

You're right about Caron Butler and Billups, I forgot about them. I figure, when the dust settles a bit, I'll look around the league and see where everybody has ended up. Obviously when it comes to the Celtics "moment to moment" is the way I'm going. Those are VERY big signings though. Who are you, and what have you done with Don Sterling?

I'd love to see things changing in Clipperland, the same way I'd love to see things change in Cubbie land and also in Warrior land. I'd love to see teams that don't have a history of winning get a taste of it (the Warriors at least have one once).

Speaking of Warrior land, thanks for the update about the Brown signing. $7M? Wow, that's a lot for that loser. Is there a trade in the works with Biedrins? I'm sure there is, if they could get value. As a bay area resident, my second favorite teams are any teams from the bay area. I'm hoping, although not confident, this signing will elevate the franchise. God knows they need some beef and toughness at center. Is Kwame Brown beefy and tough?

bob

.

by **tjmakz** Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Shannon Brown = Gerald Green
Lamar Odom = Josh McRoberts

A work in progress...
(I do like McRoberts quite a bit).

by **Outside** Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:58 pm

tjmakz wrote:It might be a little early to call Jim Buss a tool, idiot or failure.

I obviously don't know the guy, but the main reason I call Jim Buss a tool is because putting his own stamp on the Lakers and exerting his power as "the boss" seem to be his primary motivations rather than doing what's best for the team. Whether it's trying to live up to what his dad has done or an overdose of ego, I don't know. It comes across to me as some of both.

From Adrian Wojnarowski, after the hiring of Mike Brown:

Jim Buss is running the Lakers now, and this is a frightening proposition for everyone. Bryant doesn’t have a strong sense of Brown, sources with knowledge of his thinking said. He hasn’t offered a blessing or a condemnation. Brown was an Eastern Conference coach. He’s something else too: Jim Buss’ way of pushing far from Phil Jackson, passing over longtime assistant Brian Shaw, and staking claim to his own guy. He’s the insecure and largely incapable son of an iconic owner, the older brother of Jeannie Buss, the far more competent sibling to run the franchise.

Yet, Jerry Buss is turning these Lakers over to Jim, and that’s the reason sources say he conducted the search with his father and general manager Mitch Kupchak assisting him. Now, Jim Buss has two guys in the franchise: Brown and Andrew Bynum. In fact, Buss has made something clear within the Lakers, sources say: Bynum is untouchable in trade talks.

For now, this could include a sign-and-deal for the Orlando Magic’s Dwight Howard. The Lakers are Howard’s preference, but they don’t have salary cap space to sign him. They’ll need a deal that includes Bynum to the Magic, but there are those seriously doubting Jim Buss’ desire to make such a trade. After all, Bynum was Jim Buss’ discovery, his pet project and believes Bynum will ultimately resonate as the son’s personal Lakers legacy...

The Lakers could’ve made this so much easier for Brown, but Jim Buss had to make it clear that these are his Lakers now. His guys, Brown and Bynum, are the untouchables now. That’s great and all, but Bryant is still the most powerful voice, most powerful presence in the Los Angeles Lakers. No, Kobe never should’ve selected the next Lakers coach, but he should’ve connected with him long before a text message on Wednesday night. Whatever Jim Buss thinks, these Lakers will be about the partnership of Mike Brown and Kobe Bryant.

url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_mike_brown_kobe_bryant_jim_buss_lakers052511]http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_mike_brown_kobe_bryant_jim_buss_lakers052511[/url]

I have a lot of respect for Wojnarowski as an NBA reporter, and this is far from the only article like this I've read.

Jim Buss was hellbent on getting rid of any vestiges of Phil Jackson and putting his own stamp on the team. He wants to be the one calling the shots. Why was he the one leading the coaching search? Great owners, like Jerry Buss, rely on the "basketball people" in the organization to make basketball decisions. Yes, the owner has to approve those decisions, and the direction of a franchise needs to be decided by the owner and the management team, but great owners don't inject themselves into basketball decisions the way Jim Buss has. For great owners, it's all about the success of the franchise, but for Jim Buss, it's far too much about himself.

Like I said, I obviously don't know the guy, but based on the actions of the team under his leadership and the reporting from people with inside information, I am not impressed. Maybe he'll learn and become a better owner, but until I see evidence to the contrary, calling him a "tool" still fits, in my view. Sorry.

Outside

by **bobheckler** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:06 pm

tjmakz wrote:Shannon Brown = Gerald Green
Lamar Odom = Josh McRoberts

A work in progress...
(I do like McRoberts quite a bit).

TJ,

If you think Shannon Brown = Gerald Green, you didn't watch much Gerald Green. Dumber than a lamppost and his post-Celtic career proves it. You cannot be dumb if you play in the Triangle for years.

Lamar = Josh? Really? You think so? Lamar is one of the most versatile players in the league. Josh McRoberts is adequate.

bob

.

by **tjmakz** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:08 pm

bob,

Maybe I shouldn't have used an equals sign.
That was meant to be sarcasm.

Smile

by **tjmakz** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Outside,

Jim Buss has publicly said that he/they made a mistake in not consulting Kobe about the Mike Brown hiring. Do you think that Jim's dad did not agree with the Mike Brown hiring? Would you feel the same way if Jerry Buss hired Brown and not Jim? Jerry Buss is not an old man that has alzheimers or is physically ill. He is still a part of the Lakers decision making.

I agree that Phil Jackson's coaches should have been moved so they could bring in a completely new approach.

by **Outside** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:17 pm

bobheckler wrote:Speaking of Warrior land, thanks for the update about the Brown signing. $7M? Wow, that's a lot for that loser. Is there a trade in the works with Biedrins? I'm sure there is, if they could get value. As a bay area resident, my second favorite teams are any teams from the bay area. I'm hoping, although not confident, this signing will elevate the franchise. God knows they need some beef and toughness at center. Is Kwame Brown beefy and tough?

I have more faith in things changing in Warriorland than Clipperland because of the new ownership for the Warriors. But their moves the last week are less than inspiring. They were in a tough spot as far as centers go. They made a play to get Tyson Chandler (and hopefully Chris Paul) but came away with nothing. Then they signed DeAndre Jordan to an expensive offer in the hopes that cheapskate Donald Sterling wouldn't match it, but he did. Even worse, in making room for the Jordan offer, they amnestied Charlie Bell, so now they can't amnesty Biedrins. And they sign Kwame Brown, the homely girl left standing in the corner at the dance after all the attractive ones have been taken.
The only bright side is that Brown's deal is one year only. Unless some other magical trade appears, they've got Brown and Biedrins as their centers.

Beef and toughness? I suppose Brown is beefy, and he supposedly has some value defensively and on the boards (6.8 in 26 minutes a game last season), but based on what I saw when he was with the Lakers, the only way you can consider Brown beefy and tough is by comparing him to Biedrins.

But hey, another lottery pick in next year's draft, and continue building for the future. It's a five-year plan.

by **Outside** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:21 pm

TJ,

We obviously disagree, but that is my impression of Jim Buss. I'm allowed to have that opinion.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:57 pm

I totally agree with your description of Gerald Green, I once sat in a booth right next to him and Tony Allen and it took four waitresses to understand what the heck they wanted to order~ I thought I was going to lose my supper I was
laughing so hard. Those poor girls came away scratching their heads.

HOWEVER----you do have to admit that somehow, someway, this kid has remained in the picture and made money doing nothing! Who is really the crazy one, us or him???????

by **bobheckler** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:04 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I totally agree with your description of Gerald Green, I once sat in a booth right next to him and Tony Allen and it took four waitresses to understand what the heck they wanted to order~ I thought I was going to lose my supper I was
laughing so hard. Those poor girls came away scratching their heads.

HOWEVER----you do have to admit that somehow, someway, this kid has remained in the picture and made money doing nothing! Who is really the crazy one, us or him???????

Rosalie,

If I had some input and control over who my parents were, then I'd be the crazy one (not that my parents weren't great, but I could see myself living the life of luxury as a Buss child too). I didn't, so I'd have to say it's him. Although, to be precise, I didn't say he was crazy, I said he was an idiot. There's a difference, albeit mostly legal.

bob

.

by **bobheckler** Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:05 pm

tjmakz wrote:bob,

Maybe I shouldn't have used an equals sign.
That was meant to be sarcasm.

TJ,

Sorry. I should have known those statements were so over the top they had to have been tongue-in-cheek.

bob

.

by **dboss** Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:39 pm

Bob my la and lal comments contemplate the clips signing cp without gutting their team.

Dboss

by **steve3344** Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:17 am

I didn't know it was official. The Lakers actually signed Gerald Green. Gerald "no feel for the game" Green. Didn't they ever watch any tape of the guy?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ap96lYtKmGP0tFOJ.ycqzoy8vLYF?slug=ap-lakersmoves

And their already thin front court now minus Odom just took another hit as the article states that Derrick Caracter will have surgery on a torn meniscus in his left knee.

by **gyso** Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:11 am

steve,

Signing players in the preseason oftentimes doesn't mean guaranteed. For instance:

"The Boston Celtics today announced that they have signed free agent forward/center Jamal Sampson, free agent guard/forward Gilbert Brown, and free agent forward Michael Sweetney"

Do you suppose any one of that three actually has a chance to really make the team? These signings are for training camp bodies. In Gilbert's case, perhaps he will hang on and be sent to Maine, maybe the other two as well.

If Green is still on the Laker roster come Christmas, well, they are welcome to him!!!

gyso

by **bobheckler** Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:22 am

gyso wrote:steve,

Signing players in the preseason oftentimes doesn't mean guaranteed. For instance:

"The Boston Celtics today announced that they have signed free agent forward/center Jamal Sampson, free agent guard/forward Gilbert Brown, and free agent forward Michael Sweetney"

Do you suppose any one of that three actually has a chance to really make the team? These signings are for training camp bodies. In Gilbert's case, perhaps he will hang on and be sent to Maine, maybe the other two as well.

If Green is still on the Laker roster come Christmas, well, they are welcome to him!!!

gyso

Amen!

What's ironic about this is that me and TJ were sharing a little joke about how

Shannon Brown = Gerald Green
Odom = McRoberts

TJ was expressing sarcasm, which I missed on the first pass, but agree with now that I "get it".

Now, the Lakers actually have him in camp.

It's amazing how often life imitates art.

I hadn't heard about Caracter needing surgery. It'll be interesting to see how quickly a 275# man comes back from that.

I'm sure this signing and the surgery will make Kobe just soooo much happier and make him forget about the loss of Brown and Odom....

bob

.

by **swedeinestonia** Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:19 am

Speaking of Sweetney, is he a player who has talent but cant get his weight in check or would he not really be all that good even if he was fit?

by **RosalieTCeltics** Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:23 am

I haven't even heard a word about him in camp yet. They had Media Day yesterday, and I saw most of the players walking around, but I didn't see him.
He is there as a body, I don't know if they will even send him to Maine.

by **bobheckler** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:36 pm

Lakers sign free agent Josh McRoberts. TJ got his wish.

Gerald Green's contract with the Lakers is NON-guaranteed, so he could just be a warm body for camp. Over at Laker Nation, one poster described Green as "a dumber version of Shannon Brown, and that's scary". ROTFLMAO. What's funny is that the first time Green does an amazingly athletic alley oop dunk or whatever, he'll become an immediate crowd favorite in LALA land (much as he was on Celtics Planet when he was with us, right up until we all realized just how low his basketball IQ is). With fans, and a team, dying for youth and athleticism, Green's dunks may be all it takes for him to stay with the team through the season.

I don't know when non-guaranteed contracts become guaranteed this year. It used to be in December, certainly by Christmas, but I can't see it being that this year since the season doesn't even start until Christmas. Although with Dictator-for-Life, Mr. Potato Head, running things who knows?

bob

.

by **beat** Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:50 pm

(from Bob)

What's funny is that the first time Green does an amazingly athletic alley oop dunk or whatever, he'll become an immediate crowd favorite in LALA land (much as he was on Celtics Planet when he was with us, right up until we all realized just how low his basketball IQ is).

Bob

Does he really have a chance to make the team???

Are the Lakers in THAT desperate a mode?

guess the next few days will be interesting to watch.

beat

by **bobheckler** Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:42 pm

beat wrote:(from Bob)

What's funny is that the first time Green does an amazingly athletic alley oop dunk or whatever, he'll become an immediate crowd favorite in LALA land (much as he was on Celtics Planet when he was with us, right up until we all realized just how low his basketball IQ is).

Bob

Does he really have a chance to make the team???

Are the Lakers in THAT desperate a mode?

guess the next few days will be interesting to watch.

beat

beat,

My guts says "yes, they are that desperate".

With the exception of 33-year old Kobe Bryant, the Lakers backcourt is, IMO, on life support.

1- Fisher, Blake = the slowest, worst point guard corp in the league, especially in a non-Triangle offense
2- Bryant, Ebanks = probably the best SG in the league and a sophomore with little exposure
3- Metta, Barnes, Walton = Artest has slowed down (32 yo), Walton is on his last legs.

An athletic 2/3 would help them. It might also help to distract the fans from the overall state of the team (sorta like throwing bread to the crowds in the Roman Coliseum. It made them forget, for a bit, that their lives were hard, the Empire was going down and the Emperor wasn't helping much to change that).

Their frontcourt is a problem too. Unlike the Celtics, who have a 5 on his last legs, they have a legit 5 (when he's not on the DL because of his legs) but after that, they're even thinner than last year. McRoberts has replaced Odom, so they lost athleticism and versatility. Caracter is down for 2 months. If they cannot find another big man that can play minutes, then the next best thing would be to become more athletic in the wing positions and bring back Showtime. If you can't beat'em (in the paint), outrun'em.

Due to our lack of height and beef in the frontcourt we'll be doing that a lot too, I predict, but we've got MUCH better depth to do it with and (last but not least) a point guard that can run.

bob

.

by **swedeinestonia** Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:15 pm

Would be fun to see a second unit of Rondo/Bradley/Green/JJJ/Wilcox play and apply full court press.

by **steve3344** Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:18 pm

Kendrick Perkins is skinny now:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Kendrick-Perkins-drops-32-pounds-bucking-the-lo?urn=nba-wp11788

Should help his knees.

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