POST GAME OKC

Outside

I do agree they looked "better" but that is a relative term as I dread to think they could look "worse".

But if "better" is still losing to a good team at home then I just have to wonder. We are in such a fragile situation. We cannot afford one player to have anything close to an off night, we have no one to pick up the slack.

This team as it is constructed right now cannot contend for a title period in MHO. Even making the playoffs may be tough and if we do happen to slide into a low seed......what awaits???


I'll still root like hell and hope somehow we can turn this around but I am also a realist in that the task at hand is daunting.

beat

With the teams' age I get worried when they begin to say that "we are playing great in spurts". May be that is all we are capable of doing. It is clear that outside of a few players that can run and perform, Rondo's creativity is being held back and will not resurface until next year at the earliest.

112288

Hi,
One more L. But this one, IMO, has some silver lining.
The defense getting better. PP getting back. I think he did a decent job against KD.
They have to do a lot of work on offense to be on the level. Once again, I guess, they made Doc go ballistic with all those extra passes.
Individually, I think MP, JON and MD did a very good job.
On the subject of Rondo vs Westbrook. Sure RW can shoot from practically anywhere and at the very good rate but he can't touch RR's court vision and ability to feed the ball.

Sam,
Where's you "glimmer" thread? I think it's about time....

AK

The drumbeat of negativity coming out of the OKC game astounds me. How many times does Sam have to say, "see me in March" (or, this year, "see me in April") and be proven right for everyone to finally believe him?

First off, the Celtics will make the playoffs. Why is that even part of the discussion? The bottom half of the East is woeful. Let's have a look at the current standings, shall we?

1. Chicago, 12-3. They'll wind up at 1 or 2.
2. Philly, 10-3. Collins is doing a great job, has them playing over their heads. Will improve on last year's .500 finish, but let's be realistic.
3. Orlando, 9-3. I figured they'd implode, but SVG is doing a nice job. They're bottom tier come playoff time, maybe as low as 7 or 8.
4. Indiana, 9-3. I like this team. They'll be somewhere in the middle.
5. Atlanta, 10-4. Horford's out for the year, Crawford's gone, they're still Atlanta. They will slide in the standings.
6. Miami, 8-4. They'll wind up at 1 or 2.
7. Cleveland, 6-6. Nice start. The lottery awaits.
8. Knicks, 6-7. More issues than Boston.
9 (tie). Boston, 4-8.
9 (tie). Milwaukee, 4-8. They can field an okay group of five, but that is one thin roster.

Cleveland will fall out of the playoff picture. Atlanta will struggle. Can Orlando keep it up? Do you really think the Knicks are better than Boston? Or the Bucks?

I see the Celtics winding up as high as 5th, but probably 6th. Getting there healthy and having developed chemistry is the main thing.

I'm not a blind-faith kind of guy that says my team is going to win when they really have no chance. I follow the Celtics, but shoot, I'm not even a Celtic fan, not in the way you green-blooded maniacs are. But from where I sit, this team is a lock for the playoffs and could become one of the more dangerous teams in the postseason. They are certainly not the favorite to win it all, or one of the top picks, but I cannot count them out. They have a core that is vulnerable but could take them deep into the playoffs. They've had some unlucky injuries in the playoffs the past couple of years.

I made a similar rant before, I think during last year's playoffs. This group has brought championship hopes back to Boston, and I find it difficult to believe that some of you are willing to abandon them so soon and call for trading all the old guys away. Yes, they need youth, to replace the core eventually, but to complement the core for now. Ainge tried to get younger and more athletic by trading Perk last season and got eviscerated for it. If not for the lockout, they'd have Krstic starting and JON coming off the bench, where he belongs. If not for the misfortune of losing Jeff Green to an aortic aneurysm, they'd have an athletic scorer who'd perform better after getting more comfortable in the system. Are some of the same people who say that was a disastrous trade now calling for Ainge to trade KG and Ray? Even Pierce, the lifelong Celtic Captain? And what do you think he'd get in return? It's like the notion that Sacramento would trade troubled but very young and very talented DeMarcus Cousins for old, broken down Jermaine O'Neal. It's fantasy to think you'll get anything of value in return for your aging stars with their high salaries.

But do you know what you can get from those aging stars? One more run.

Having even a glimmer of hope at a good playoff run is far more than fans of most teams can hope for. Two years ago, they went to game 7 in the finals, and a lot of people think that if Perk wasn't hurt in game 6, the Celtics win that title. Last year, if Rondo doesn't dislocate his elbow against Miami, maybe they win game 4, evening up that series, and how do you like their chances then? Yet six months later, it's time to trade them all away?

Maybe Celtic fans are spoiled by all those titles, all those banners. You've got so many of them that you don't appreciate how precious they are. I grew up a Warrior fan; I'm 55 years old, and I've seen them win one title in my lifetime. I can tell you how precious a title is.

The time to rebuild will come next season, but you should savor this last precious season with these guys. They've been a gift to Boston, and they've earned the privilege to have one last run, and even if the season ends with a playoff loss, they should have Boston fans backing them every step of the way.

Outside

REPORT: TEAMS INQUIRE ABOUT C'S PIERCE
By: Ben Rohrbach


3
10 Comments
A day after the Celtics lost their fifth straight game, to former center Kendrick Perkins and his Thunder, Yahoo! Sports columnist Adrian Wojnarowski reports that "several contending teams have inquired" about the availability of C's captain Paul Pierce.

"There are 'a lot of calls asking if [Boston] will blow it up," an Eastern Conference official told Wojnarowski.

While Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen both become free agents at the end of the season, Pierce is under contract with the Celtics for two more years and $32 million. Could he become trade bait at the March 15 deadline without signs of improvement from the current team?

The Perkins trade for Jeff Green last February was the first sign that Celtics president Danny Ainge isn't afraid to blow up the 2008 championship core. Ainge has reiterated multiple times that nobody is safe, as he hopes to preserve the future and avoid another post-Big Three malaise like the one the Celtics endured throughout the 1990s.

112288

Outside

Not once have I mentioned trading anyone or blowing up the team. I just don't think we are that good...... and this many games into the season with so little time to "practice" for a team that IS so reliant on timing makes me wonder. Heck recently we had a 4 day layoff with some time to practice and what did we do the following game put up 15 points in the first quarter against Dallas. Slow starts have been the norm unfortunately. Yet we did play hard that game and only lost by 5. (and they (Dallas) had played the evening before too)

Agree that the East is woeful and we very well can/will make it to the playoffs but how high up is debateable.

Doc seems to have settled on a rotation of sorts. That is probably a good first step. There are many more left. You pointed out on another thread/post about how the schedule eases up a bit over the next 10 games. Without looking I believe you thought we could go 7-3 or 8-2.

Lots of time left and lots of things can happen, we are due to catch some breaks..... not bones either!!

beat

Beat,

My post wasn't a response to you. There are multiple posts on this thread plus a couple of other threads either implying or outright advocating that it's all over for this group and that the Celtics should trade KG, Ray, and/or Pierce. That was just one factor. I primarily felt that the overall tone of negativity coming out of the OKC game wasn't justified. I found so much to be encouraged by in that game and was surprised to see most of the posts running the other way.

I do think the next stretch of games will tell a lot, and I'm much more optimistic about the Celtics' chances based on their performance against OKC. There are still strides to be made, for sure, but they looked so much better against OKC than what I'd seen in earlier games. I've come out of that game with a "sky is clearing" outlook, not "sky is falling."

Outside
As usual you have done a great job of making your points. The bottom line for me is that you don't consider them to be a top contender. I don't either. And lets say that Danny doesn't either, and that somewhere before the trading deadline other teams begin making offers for Allen and Garnett. And lets say that he feels that he can make a deal or two that will bode well for the future. Make a deal or play out the season? Time will tell. Either way, a make over of this team will start this year and Danny may well have a say as to how soon it begins. Im very comfortable with a decission to break up the team early if it enhances the teams chances for a quicker return to the top. Hell, at soon to be 80 I don' have another 17 years to wait for another championship.
Swish

Swish,

And you make a good point, too. If they actually get good offers for Ray, Pierce, and Garnett, then of course he should consider them. But they'd have to be really good offers to use up their cap space and take themselves out of the free agent bidding this summer. Ainge lined himself up to have Garnett's and Ray's contracts expire after this season, and that's a pretty good strategy and definable point at which to rebuild.

If they did make a big trade like that, it would be in effect giving up on this season and starting the rebuilding process now. I find it hard to believe that other teams will offer young, athletic stars for the Celtics' vets. My guess is that any talk about other teams asking about trades is really the other teams hoping the Celtics are desperate and willing to trade their vets for marginal talent. But if the trading deadline is looming and Ainge gets an offer he can't refuse, then he has to pull the trigger.

But I'm skeptical that anyone will make that kind of offer, and I still think this group deserves one more shot. I may have projected the Celtics at 5th or 6th in the East, but I think they'll actually be the 3rd or 4th most dangerous team. Wade thought he broke his ankle the other day; what if that becomes a recurring injury, and he's out or ineffective in the playoffs? If anything happens to Rose, Chicago is done. With the Celtics arriving at the playoffs in peak form, they could beat Miami and Chicago even if Rose, LeBron, and Wade are healthy. OKC is tough, but they've got their vulnerabilities, too. Poised to make one final run, the Celtics could be a very dangerous team. They're not a top contender, but I do think they're a contender, and I'd have to get one heck of trade offer for me to throw that opportunity away.

Outside

It seems like Pierce and Garnett would be pretty hard to trade to a contending team becasue of the amount of money they are making this year. There are very few large contracts that expire this year that would be comparable to Pierce or Garnett's.

The teams that are under the salary cap would not need either of them.

It's hard to see what teams might be a realistic fit for Pierce or Garnett when you factor in salaries, Pierce's remaining contract, age and deterioriating skill and Boston's reluctance to take on any salary for next year to preserve cap space.

Outside
There won't be any equal value trades involving the Celts with the contenders, or the noncontenders for that matter unless its a salary dump by a non contender. What I think is the most likely senario involving Allen and Garnett would be giving another team salary relief via Allens or Garnetts expiring contracts in exchange for a player of equal contract value but whose ownership is looking to dump long tern salary and is willing, for financial reasons, to throw in a draft pick.
Swish

The Celtics won't take on any long term salary for Ray or KG. Danny is all set for next off-season. The C's will be under the cap and will be players in the free agent market.

Why would Danny trade that away for a band-aid fix for this season?

Nothing (IMO) is getting blown up. So lets watch for glimmers and enjoy the Big Three's Ride into the Sunset!!!

Outside wrote:

The time to rebuild will come next season, but you should savor this last precious season with these guys. They've been a gift to Boston, and they've earned the privilege to have one last run, and even if the season ends with a playoff loss, they should have Boston fans backing them every step of the way.

Outside

Bravo. Best quote I have ever read out here. Thanks Outside.

Technically this isn't about the OKC game with the Celtics, but about the game last night between OKC and the Clippers.

Here's a dunk by Griffin over Perk. Perk tried to contest it, but...





bob

.

Yeah, no offensive foul there right?

Guy TOTALLY cleared out Perk....nothing was called. If Perk did the same, and put him on his back - he would have been ejected.

More top notch officiating in the NBA.

mrkleen09 wrote:Yeah, no offensive foul there right?

Guy TOTALLY cleared out Perk....nothing was called. If Perk did the same, and put him on his back - he would have been ejected.

More top notch officiating in the NBA.

Mrkleen, If Perk ever did that (dunk) we'd all crap our pants! (and I bet he'd still be in greeen)

beat

True.

What I meant, if Perk defended that dunk as aggressively and put Griffin on his ass - he woudl have been thrown out.

As to the play itself Mrkeen what are you seeing?

Perk is within the arc and does not go straight up. He also brings his right arm down. Yes Griffin has his left arm crossed in front of him but it is OVER Perks head. At the peak of his jump his waist is even with Perks shoulder.

Now it does appear that he actually goes up a bit higher by extending that left arm off Perks shoulder, as if he needed too???

If anything it should have been a play on, no call either way.

beat

You cant see Griffin clear the way for his dunk with his left arm?

He actually pushes off Perk to elevate higher.

They would never call this, but just saying. You cannot lead with you left arm - at least as far as my understanding of offensive fouls.

Amazing how different people can see the same thing so differently. What I see with Griffin's dunk is that Griffin jumps, then Perk moves forward and inserts himself into Griffin's armpit. I do not see in any way that Griffin "cleared out" Perk with his left arm, or that he got any increase in elevation by pushing off Perk's shoulder.

I'm much less of a Griffin fan than I was last year. I think he whines way too much, and I've seen him flop on multiple occasions, both of which are egregious sins in my book. I've also seen him use his brute strength in a manner that I'd call an offensive foul, including a left-arm clearout. But that was one fantastic dunk, and perfectly legal in my opinion.

The one point of contention I can see is whether it was actually a dunk or, if like his dunk over Mozgov last season, he actually threw it down with incredible force while being too far away from the rim to actually touch it. If you look at the last replay in the clip Bob posted, you can see that he releases the ball while still a few inches away and only touches the rim (barely) on the follow-through.

Outside

Outside and Mrkleen

After finding a way to play the one view from above a bit slower Perk is moving into his landing space AFTER Griffin is airborne which is illegal. When he does make contact with Perks should/head with his left arm it sure does appear he continues to go up, perhaps from the original jump with a little assistance from Perk's head. Perk is virtually flat footed at this time and with his arms extented somewhat vetical but not quite. Perhaps the contact allows him to stay airbourn just enough to throw the ball down???

As Outside mentiions perhaps he realizes that he is a bit further from the rim than he anticipated and from 3 feet away or so throws the ball thru with little rim contact.

And at 500 feet he pulled the cord and made a soft landing.

I don't see a foul on Griffen and Perk was a step to slow to get over there.

Heck in reality just how many times do refs have to make a call when a player jumps like he does and there is some contact? The guy has some serious hops. Just one amazing play.

Also wonder how a player is to make a play on the ball when you can't possibly reach it?? Rules are you are to make a play on it otherwise it could be ruled as a flagrant, correct??

Outside.

I haven't seen him play enough to say he whines too much. Seems there are lots of those in the league including right here on the C's.

beat

I've seen better by Dr. J as a NY Net and at the Prospect Park in Roosevelt Long Island where we used to play pick up ball while in junior high and high school!

112288

112288 wrote:I've seen better by Dr. J as a NY Net and at the Prospect Park in Roosevelt Long Island where we used to play pick up ball while in junior high and high school!

112288

Still MY all time favorite leaper!!

beat

You had to see him as a kid. He was not tall in high school. Only about 6'1 - 6'2. It was only when he went to UMASS that he grew another 5 inches. But boy could he leap out of his converse sneakers! He was just another guy waiting his turn for a game in the parks, nice quiet guy.


112288

I did get to see him in Buffalo (Braves) ( in my college days) after the NBA-ABA merger. He had the huge fro. Actually got to speak to him in the locker room after a little. Sort of a quiet guy. Stll have the program he signed from back then.

There was a lot of buzz when he came to town.

Griffen on sheer strength might be able to get his mass higher ?? perhaps? but the Doctor did it with a STYLE that not even MJ could approach.

beat