Post Season Moves and Observations

cowens/oldschool wrote:I would be thrilled if Fab Melo and Royce White are there at 21 and 22. Melo we need for obvious reasons, White reminds me of a juiced up Igoudala, has point forward skills and can run with Rondo and take it end to end.

cow,

Both these players are projected to be available when the Celtics pick (draftexpress has White going at #23, but mynbadraft.com has him going earlier than us). I don't get the "juiced up Iggy" reference you made. I admit I've never seen Royce White play, but he's 6'8", 270#. That's more like a juiced up Baby than Iggy. Have you seen him play? I looked at his profile on draftexpress and there's nothing there except measurements and stats. One of the stats that alarms me is his 49.8% ft shooting.

White just worked out for the T-Wolves. He's from Minny, so he might be a hometown pick by them. They pick #18. The good news is that people are projecting they will take Tyler Zeller, a 7-footer. If they take White, Zeller falls. He might not fall to #21 but even if he falls to #19 or #20 then a good player could fall into our laps at #21 as talent gets pushed down by surprise picks rising.

I'm still sticking with my previous prognostication that at least one of these picks, and probably some players, will be gone in a trade for a much better draft pick or veteran player. I don't want to head into free agency this year and next with nothing but a kiddie brigade and a few expiring superstars. What top shelf veteran player would want to come to that? The easiest way of getting more is to already have some. Trading some of our unknown youth (draft picks plus JJJ?) for a quality player will give us Rondo, Bass and the trade as bait for free agents. I'd like to add Bradley to that, but I think he's still too new to act as a psychological draw for free agents.


bob

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Cow,

I've seen Melo play, in person and on televised games, lots.

We don't want him.

I think beat ended up at a few SU games with better seats than me, he might offer up some perspective as well.

Royce White would be great, but I think a more likely candidate is Doron Lamb, a guard. For a center I've got several body parts crossed we take Festus Ezeli.

Regards

NYCelt

Yeah saw him the past 2 years. As a frosh he was lost might as well have been on the side of a milk carton.

He improved a lot over one year, certainly his absence hurt SU chances of advancing far in the NCAA tournament,

The rumors regarding his departure from SU ran the gauntlet. Sufice to say the school isn't talking and nether is Melo. If it were LEGAL issues it would have come out by now, I would think. There were charges regarding a domestic incident during the season, supposedly abusive towards his 22 YO girlfriend, that matter is still pending. He is suppose to have court in Syracuse tomorrow.

The most convincing story is that he was not doing his schoolwork was put on notice about it with a brief suspension (2 games I believe, 1 was SU's first loss last year) then he was admitted back on the team and given a deadline to have work handed in. Heard also that this was stuff that was to have been done in the fall semester so he had several incompletes on his grades. Once the scond deadline came and no work was done as requested the school had no choice but to remove him from the team.

Makes me wonder just how much this has to do with his talent on the court. He certainly took up space in the middle, rebounded OK and showed an ability to finish around the rim. Can get out an run too. Still a work in progress for sure.

Dispite the positives I would NOT waste a draft pick here. If he's still around give him a look see or an ivite to camp, but just does not seem to have his head screwed on quite right.

beat

bobheckler wrote:...I'm still sticking with my previous prognostication that at least one of these picks, and probably some players, will be gone in a trade for a much better draft pick or veteran player. I don't want to head into free agency this year and next with nothing but a kiddie brigade and a few expiring superstars...The easiest way of getting more is to already have some.
bob

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Bob,

I think your crystal ball could end up being very acurate, and I agree with your thought on what might attract players to us.

We are now free of two big contracts, but there are no significant free agents available this year. We have two first round picks and a second rounder in a very deep draft. It would make sense to package one of those first rounders and I'm guessing Pierce in an attempt to get a veteran power forward or center. We still end up with a first rounder at a spot where there are likely to be several guards and a couple of centers available that could possibly contribute something quickly.

If that leaves us money to sign free agents Green and Wilcox and perhaps work something out with KG for a year then we're looking good for free agency next year.

We end up with a new "Big Two" of Rondo and whoever is acquired, Green, Bradley and maybe 2-3 developing youngsters. A bench with the likes of Bass, Wilcox, Pietrus and Moore isn't bad for now either. That might be a good looking nucleus going into the 2013 offseason with some ability to spend.

Danny's got the stones to try it.

Regards

Sam,

By "difference maker" (DM) I did mean all-star or future all-star. Have any teams won the NBA championship in the last 15 or 20 years without a top 5 or top 10 player on their team? Only one comes to mind: Detroit in '04.

Rondo fits the bill, but he is too inconsistent. A healthy Pierce is close to being a DM, but he cannot be expected to perform at both ends against the best at his position. KG is one of the best at the 5 spot, as he proved in the second half of the season, but he can no longer put in 40+ minutes on a consistent basis.

Those three, Rondo, Pierce and KG, make a great core, but they need another key player in order to go all the way. I don't know who that may be, but I trust that Danny will try to find him. It is just an opinion and a wish, and under the new CBA, it won't be easy.

Other general comments to no one in particular:

It doesn't look like Ray will return. He may still want to be a starter, so Chicago may be a better fit for him, in his opinion.

I don't expect Bass to return. He may be at his peak and may want to cash in on a big contract, ala Glen (BB) Davis last year. I don't think overpaying for an undersized player is the best way to go. Bass just might surprise me by understanding his best role is coming off the bench, but most of the time, money talks.

IMO, everything pivots around whether KG decides to come back for another year or two or decides to retire. That's some mighty big shoes to fill.

There is lots of talk about Greg Stiemsma, and I see that bobheckler mentioned Semih Erden, but what about Nenad Krstic? If I remember right, he has a buyout clause in the second year of his contract overseas. I suggest we sign Krstic and Stiemsma, along with KG. Then we see how high we can move up in the draft by trading our two 1st round picks. Maybe the rebounding bruiser can be found there.

gyso

I really don't think Hollins will get a shot, but....you never know. All his faults showed up in that Miami series. Greg just couldn't move, feet just held him back.

With no Rose, the Bulls will be looking for a true point guard for next season. That may effect the money that is available for Ray. I know, I know, it is wishful thinking on my part, and he doesn't sound too hopeful either, but I really wish he would come back here. I guess the thinking is that Moore is going to become the shooter on this team, that remains to be seen, since they have to sign him first.

gyso wrote:Sam,

By "difference maker" (DM) I did mean all-star or future all-star. Have any teams won the NBA championship in the last 15 or 20 years without a top 5 or top 10 player on their team? Only one comes to mind: Detroit in '04.

Rondo fits the bill, but he is too inconsistent. A healthy Pierce is close to being a DM, but he cannot be expected to perform at both ends against the best at his position. KG is one of the best at the 5 spot, as he proved in the second half of the season, but he can no longer put in 40+ minutes on a consistent basis.

Those three, Rondo, Pierce and KG, make a great core, but they need another key player in order to go all the way. I don't know who that may be, but I trust that Danny will try to find him. It is just an opinion and a wish, and under the new CBA, it won't be easy.

Other general comments to no one in particular:

It doesn't look like Ray will return. He may still want to be a starter, so Chicago may be a better fit for him, in his opinion.

I don't expect Bass to return. He may be at his peak and may want to cash in on a big contract, ala Glen (BB) Davis last year. I don't think overpaying for an undersized player is the best way to go. Bass just might surprise me by understanding his best role is coming off the bench, but most of the time, money talks.

IMO, everything pivots around whether KG decides to come back for another year or two or decides to retire. That's some mighty big shoes to fill.

There is lots of talk about Greg Stiemsma, and I see that bobheckler mentioned Semih Erden, but what about Nenad Krstic? If I remember right, he has a buyout clause in the second year of his contract overseas. I suggest we sign Krstic and Stiemsma, along with KG. Then we see how high we can move up in the draft by trading our two 1st round picks. Maybe the rebounding bruiser can be found there.

gyso

gyso,

You're quite right, I forgot about Krstic. I believe he can be bought out of his second year with CSKA Moscow for a reasonable price.

Krstic, Erden and Steamer. That's a deep bench at 5 (assuming KG comes back).

I don't think KG will be back the way things are right now. He requested a trade from Minny when it became clear they were in a "youth/rebuilding" mode. Why wouldn't he either retire or go somewhere where he's not the oldest kid in the kindergarten? This is another reason why I think you're going to see Trader Danny full-blown. No trades or respectable free agents this summer, no KG next year and KG still has game.


bob

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Hi,
Speaking about "difference maker". I wonder if JG can become one. Providing, of course, he's in playing form.

I almost forgot about Nenad. He can be a very good backup 5 or, they can sign him and trade for an impact player.

AK

Sam

Assuming kg is resign and pp continues to play competitively, the Cells do not need to add a superstar this year but it is a piece they will need real soon.

The problem with pp is his inabilitu to get up and down. The Celtics cannot make a full transition into the future until pp is not in the starting lineup.
That is the main reason I would use a pick on a sf. We do not know how Green will perform so adding a sf is insurance, at least long term.

I am not sure if most fans realize just how deep this draft is.

A pf/c and a sf would be great. Add a pg from the pool of free agents, resign kg, green, steimsma, hollins, give Moore and jjj minutes in the rotation, cut back on pp minutes and the celtics will be very competitive.

Dboss

I completely forgot about Krstic; he would help greatly if we could get him back.

I don't think trading both first round picks to move up is the best way to go, and I don't think it will bring the type of vet PF or C we need.

Keep one of the two picks and package the other along with Pierce and you may have both a quality vet (difference maker as gyso put it) you can bargain for and a very good young prospect to build with. Seems like you would get a lot more return with that strategy, as well as contract room. If both Pierce and Ray's contracts are gone you might have room for the new vet contract you bring in and a 1 year deal for KG who might return if he thinks you're serious about staying competitive while rebuilding.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:I would be thrilled if Fab Melo and Royce White are there at 21 and 22. Melo we need for obvious reasons, White reminds me of a juiced up Igoudala, has point forward skills and can run with Rondo and take it end to end.

cow,

Both these players are projected to be available when the Celtics pick (draftexpress has White going at #23, but mynbadraft.com has him going earlier than us). I don't get the "juiced up Iggy" reference you made. I admit I've never seen Royce White play, but he's 6'8", 270#. That's more like a juiced up Baby than Iggy. Have you seen him play? I looked at his profile on draftexpress and there's nothing there except measurements and stats. One of the stats that alarms me is his 49.8% ft shooting.

White just worked out for the T-Wolves. He's from Minny, so he might be a hometown pick by them. They pick #18. The good news is that people are projecting they will take Tyler Zeller, a 7-footer. If they take White, Zeller falls. He might not fall to #21 but even if he falls to #19 or #20 then a good player could fall into our laps at #21 as talent gets pushed down by surprise picks rising.

I'm still sticking with my previous prognostication that at least one of these picks, and probably some players, will be gone in a trade for a much better draft pick or veteran player. I don't want to head into free agency this year and next with nothing but a kiddie brigade and a few expiring superstars. What top shelf veteran player would want to come to that? The easiest way of getting more is to already have some. Trading some of our unknown youth (draft picks plus JJJ?) for a quality player will give us Rondo, Bass and the trade as bait for free agents. I'd like to add Bradley to that, but I think he's still too new to act as a psychological draw for free agents.


bob

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bob I did see RW play vs Kentucky in the NCAA's, he was a one man wrecking crew, taking the ball end to end a few times and attacking at the rim going right at the defense, kid has a burst and surprising handle for a bulky SF/PF. I've also seen clips on youtube, supposedly hes on medication, has some phobias otherwise he'd be a lottery pick.

Dboss,

I agree about Paul Pierce. I was surprised to see NYCelt mention that the Celts could package Paul in a trade. I congratulate NYCelt for having the stones to say that because the prevailing sentiment seems to be that he plays out his career in Boston. But I have to say that, despite his willingness to play hurt and his occasional ability to make clutch shots, I don't believe Pierce fits with the model toward which I believe the Celtics are heading.

I found myself saying I hope they becoming a running team, and then I realized that, of the five starters I suggested, only Rondo and Bradley are really instinctive up-tempo guys. My comment about an offense going in two different directions is really mainly due to the presence of Paul Pierce—especially if Ray leaves. I do believe KG could do well for a year or two with an up-tempo team because he can get out when he needs two and he'd be an ideal trailer on the break after rebounding and outletting at the other end.

Since I don't really follow college basketball very much, I'm finding it interesting to look up scouting reports on all the draftees that are mentioned.

Sam

Sam

Parting ways with Paul Pierce would be a very difficult decision.

Would KG come back for another year if PP was gone?

I read an article that suggest that if KG does not return then the Celtics should move PP.

I think everything depends on what KG does.

I remember how the old Celtics understood and accepted different roles. They embraced coming off the bench. Ray could not handle that. I doubt PP could either.

Dboss

NYCelt wrote:I completely forgot about Krstic; he would help greatly if we could get him back.

I don't think trading both first round picks to move up is the best way to go, and I don't think it will bring the type of vet PF or C we need.

Keep one of the two picks and package the other along with Pierce and you may have both a quality vet (difference maker as gyso put it) you can bargain for and a very good young prospect to build with. Seems like you would get a lot more return with that strategy, as well as contract room. If both Pierce and Ray's contracts are gone you might have room for the new vet contract you bring in and a 1 year deal for KG who might return if he thinks you're serious about staying competitive while rebuilding.

on Melo, who else is out there with length that can defend and be a post presence and be there at 21? the kid Meyers Leonard is supposed to be gone, Zeller looks too stiff to me. Melo already plays better D as a soph and has more upside than Zeller.....all the reports I've read say Melo can defintely be that post presence as he was at Syracuse, he made that defense.

Krstic, please no.....major defensive liability.

....and I do realize and hope we all realize the draft is a crapshoot

sam wrote:Dboss,

I agree about Paul Pierce. I was surprised to see NYCelt mention that the Celts could package Paul in a trade. I congratulate NYCelt for having the stones to say that because the prevailing sentiment seems to be that he plays out his career in Boston. But I have to say that, despite his willingness to play hurt and his occasional ability to make clutch shots, I don't believe Pierce fits with the model toward which I believe the Celtics are heading.

I found myself saying I hope they becoming a running team, and then I realized that, of the five starters I suggested, only Rondo and Bradley are really instinctive up-tempo guys. My comment about an offense going in two different directions is really mainly due to the presence of Paul Pierce—especially if Ray leaves. I do believe KG could do well for a year or two with an up-tempo team because he can get out when he needs two and he'd be an ideal trailer on the break after rebounding and outletting at the other end.

Since I don't really follow college basketball very much, I'm finding it interesting to look up scouting reports on all the draftees that are mentioned.

Sam

I think even now he does alot more than hit an occasional clutch shot, he had the best/highest clutch rating of any active player according to ESPN, the only SF drafted in last 5 years with greater impact is Durant.....good luck to anyone who thinks we can just find another young SF to plug in there thats gonna have near his total game and impact, theres alot of Wes Johnsons out there.....remember Gerald Green?

cowens/oldschool wrote:

NYCelt wrote:I completely forgot about Krstic; he would help greatly if we could get him back.

I don't think trading both first round picks to move up is the best way to go, and I don't think it will bring the type of vet PF or C we need.

Keep one of the two picks and package the other along with Pierce and you may have both a quality vet (difference maker as gyso put it) you can bargain for and a very good young prospect to build with. Seems like you would get a lot more return with that strategy, as well as contract room. If both Pierce and Ray's contracts are gone you might have room for the new vet contract you bring in and a 1 year deal for KG who might return if he thinks you're serious about staying competitive while rebuilding.

on Melo, who else is out there with length that can defend and be a post presence and be there at 21? the kid Meyers Leonard is supposed to be gone, Zeller looks too stiff to me. Melo already plays better D as a soph and has more upside than Zeller.....all the reports I've read say Melo can defintely be that post presence as he was at Syracuse, he made that defense.

Krstic, please no.....major defensive liability.

Cow

Melo is a "big time" head case. IF ( and that is a big if!) we draft him and if he works out, in a year or 2 he could be serviceable or better. His defense at SU was better than the year before but still has a LONG way to go. SU played ZONE the vast majority of time so it is questionable how well his defense will be in a man to man setting.

beat

Cow,

I agree that Paul Pierce has been a fine player for the Celtics, and I wouldn't expect to find a younger player just like him. But someone who is a fine player is not necessarily ideal for a given system. Paul is noticeably slowing down, and that was the case before he hurt his knee.

For some time, despite any heroics Paul may perform, I've felt that his and Rondo's approaches to basketball were not consistent with one another. It's a credit to both of them that they've been able to reach an accommodation in playing pretty well together. As it is, the Celtics offense this season stagnated far too much for my taste. I'm not at all claiming that Paul, or even the differing approaches of Paul and Rondo, were solely responsible, but I believe they played a part. I think the Celtics offense should and will become more uptempo, while Paul's offense will probably become even more halfcourt oriented. That's what I call offenses going in different directions.

I also think that one of Paul's strengths through the years has been his ability to slash to the hoop. Even before he hurt his knee, I'd have described his penetration more as lumbering than slashing, and he has committed many, many turnovers by driving into traffic. I'm not at all sure the Celtics couldn't find a young player with better slashing capabilities than Paul has.

I expected some backlash by daring to suggest that Paul Pierce might be a trading chip. Perhaps NYCelt's words increased my resolve. And there is a viable theory about trading that the best time to trade a player is when he's close enough to his prime to be attractive and close enough to his retirement to leverage him in planning for the future.

As for his clutch shooting, by "occasional," I meant that I don't believe it's now happening as regularly in the past. Other teams are now looking for him to take the big shots—doubling him outside and clogging the middle against his penetration. Too often, he has to force something, and the results are mixed at best.

I like Paul Pierce. He definitely should go into the Hall of Fame, to say nothing of the rafters. But, sentiment aside, I'm not at all certain his remaining with the team for the next two seasons is the best thing for the evolving Celtics.

If the Celtics are now Rondo's team, at what point should the Celtics go "all in" and commit to molding the system and roster to take maximum advantage of what Rondo can give them?

Sam

Cow,

I would go on a personal campaign for us to draft Festus Ezeli, the center from Vanderbilt.

Having watched plenty of both, I can't understand why Melo is rated higher by most draftniks. Ezeli is a banger, pure and simple. He's average on the offensive end, can shoot a little away from the hoop, hits free throws and is an OK rebounder. The guy can defend though; he's a lunchbucket kind of guy and you don't want to roam into the paint unprepared if he's in there. He's a senior too, so maybe a touch more mature (although I wasn't mature as a senior! Were you?).

No one will tell me where Danny Ainge's office is or I would hang around there with a "Draft Festus" sign.

Regards

NYCelt,

Festus is such a cool name, I can hear Tommy trying to not laugh!!!

gyso

Sam

I'm not saying your bashing Pierce, all I'm saying is he still does alot of good, non Celtic fans call him a HoFer for some reason, we both know thats obvious; picking at 21 and 22 and whatever else is out there.....just think its very tough to find a replacement who will have near the impact. If we still want to win in the remaining years KG has left our only option is to keep Pierce and resign Jeff Green and hope/pray he can be everything he is in some of his good moments of his career, playing with Rondo, AB, Pierce, they can be on the floor together, and KG can only make J Green more effective.

cow

NYCelt
I have seen both play and Melo looks to me the more fluid and athletic of the two....but what do I know? cow

cow,

All opinion from personal observation on these things. We all see things differently.

You may very well be right about taking Melo. He is a more gifted offensive player than Ezeli.

Regards

gyso,

Speaking of Tommy, what if we did take Festus Ezeli?

How long before Tommy starts calling him "Deputy"?

Regards

NYCelt wrote:gyso,

Speaking of Tommy, what if we did take Festus Ezeli?

How long before Tommy starts calling him "Deputy"?

Regards

NYCelt,

How long before idiots start showing up at the Gahden wearing Addams Family clothing because they don't know the difference between "festus" and "fester"?

bob

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