How good was Cousy?

My pal DJ sent me some sweet youtube links to watch of Cousy. Not having seen much I was struck with 3 things 1.) his sick handle it was so good he seemed to be toyin with people. 2.) Passing skills Which looked equal to if not superior to Bird (and believe me I don't say that lightly) 3.) His overall showmanship...doode seemed to be having a very good time

Just wanted to hear thoughts from those of you that saw him about what kind of player he was. Does he remind you of any other player? How would he fare in todays game? WHat kind of athlete was he etc. Hellz just write anything at all that comes to your mind. Educate those of us who never saw him but are curious.

Thanks

Jeb

That low rumble in the distance is Sam typing. He'll provide the education you seek.

In the meantime, I'll just add that he was a magician with the ball at a time when you had to keep your hand on top of the ball or else you'd get called for palming (carrying the ball). Nowadays, I expect someone to get a repetitive-motion injury from rotating their wrist 120 degrees with every dribble. Consider that when you watch those old videos.

Besides supreme skill as a ballhandler, he had a great court vision and a great head for the game. Bird was an excellent passer, but Cousy was a level above him.

Although the Celtics dynasty was obviously more than two players, in my view (and Sam may correct me), the whole thing got started because of the inside-outside and fastbreaking combination of Cousy and Russell.

Although he was short (6-1), I have no doubt that he'd be an elite player in today's NBA. We've seen great assist men like Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash, but the only players that come to mind as ballhandlers like Cousy are Pete Maravich and Curly Neal. Cousy was clearly a better all-around player than Maravich, and since Curly Neal was a showman on the Globetrotters, we don't really know how good he would've been as a player. Cousy was one of the greats, and he be that regardless of the era.

Outside

Outside

Great! I watched enough to notice that Cousy seemed super aware Of Bill and used BR"S skills to their max. One thing I always admired about Larry and Magic is that not only would they make a great pass but they would hit the player in the hands RIGHT WHERE THE GUY LIKE TO SHOOT THE BALL it seems Cousy had that quality as well. Larry was the best touch passer I ever saw but it became clear to me 10 minutes into watchin Cousy that he was as good a passer if not better. Very very high praise.

Jeb any way you can post those youtube links here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIWLgEsHMJw&feature=email

Thats one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-4FFN_RO38&feature=email

That's another one. Then of course you will see ten on the right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QCP6mMMH2Q&feature=related

nother one

Jeb, do you have an hour? Or maybe a week? Is this a gag? Did one of the other administrators put you up to planting this question? Heck, you might as well have taken every pair of red BVDs in the world and waved them collectively in front of the Chicago Stock Yards (if they still exist).

The question is not whether Bob Cousy reminds me of any other player. The question is whether any other player reminds me of Bob Cousy. And the answer is, "Only rarely, and never with anything remotely approaching the total package of this singular playmaker."

Right now, I'm staring at a pile of perhaps 15-20 DVDs that represent a large proportion of the video that's publicly (and, in some cases, privately) available on Bob Cousy. I have scrutinized all of them intensely and repeatedly. And the entire bunch doesn't provide more than a 60%-70% idea of what The Cooz was all about to those who repeatedly saw him in game action.

The reason is that virtually all of the available video involves big games. (Little or no video was taken of the day-to-day Cooz.) And Cousy was much more conservative in big games. Of course, even when he was conservative, he was definitely good enough to put him head-and-shoulders above any playmaker ever to play the game. He was the most instinctive. His peripheral vision was medically tested years ago and was found to be virtually unique. (Others have to peek; he didn't.) His outsided hands and orangutan arms made him capable of doing far more than Rondo could ever dream of...but not at the expense of a soft shot. He was superb in the clutch. Imagine making 30 or 32 freebies (still a record) n a major playoff game that was possibly the roughest of all-time. (So many players fouled out that each team had only five left in the fourth overtime; and, when an additional player would foul out, he'd stay in the game but the other team would shoot a technical).

But it was the night-after-night stuff when the half-full houses were treated to things that will never be matched. The TWICE-around-the-back-drive to the hoop. The air dribble (repeatedly tipping the ball into the air to himself over onrushing defenders). The on-the-spot innovations stimulated by the flow of the game. The passes of every variety; using every conceivable "arm slot;" from and to any direction; from anywhere on the court; forward or behind the back or sideways. The shots of every variety: six (I have the videos) different styles of perimeter shots; amazing penetration skills for either the acrobatic finish or the eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head pass; hook shots in the paint with either hand; running hook shots from 15-18 feet with either hand.

He never had a classic jumper, so he practiced throughout the summer of 1952 in the Holy Cross gym, running up and down the floor and stopping and popping with a little "half jumper" that eventually became a staple. And, sure enough, in the third overtime of that four-overtime game the following spring, a 20-foot Cousy "jumper" capped his five-point outburst in the final 15 seconds (no three-point shot in those days) as time expired to send the game into a victorious fourth quarter.

But none of what I've said so far was the best thing about Cousy's game. He was easily....easily....the finest pure catalyst the game has ever known. He was equally adept as the architect of the best-ever fast break or the most instinctive half-court game I've ever seen. (Seven basic plays, all of which opponents knew. But numerous options on each play...options that were selected instinctively, WITHOUT SIGNALS or eye-contact, by Celtics players...and all orchestrated by The Cooz.) In his final game, in L.A., he badly rolled an ankle in the fourth quarter after having his shot after shot in the first half (including one of those lefty running hooks) to put the Celts ahead. Two teammates helped him to the bench. About three minutes later, as the Lakers were coming back furiously, Cooz came back and, though he missed his only shot, he was the catalyst that steadied the team and secured the win.

It was almost worth seeing the Celtics get into a little down period during a game, often when Cooz was taking a rest. He'd report to the scorer's table, and the crowd would begin to buzz. As soon as he'd enter the game, it invariably seemed the Russ had a defensive rebound in his hands. The noise would grow as he outletted to Cooz, and the carnage would begin. He'd race up the floor, as the noise mushroomed, back ramrod straight, head up, eyes seeing probably at least 220 degrees around him. Whatever happened then was sometimes difficult to see (especially the inside passes) because his arms were just whirling everywhere, but it eventuated in points for the Celts.

Much more often than not, a steal or a flustered opponent's shot would follow (because the other team sensed what was coming); and the scenariio would be repeated. And again. And again, as the roof would be raised by some of the biggest crowd noise I've ever heard—and by only half a crowd. Another Celtics run (they seemed to average three or four runs of eight to ten points in each game). Another game turned around by this unparalleled catalyst.

People talk about players with a good head for the game. And they're right. But compared with Cousy? It is to laugh! He was so far ahead in envisioning how things would play out (he typically thought about four passes ahead; he was so far ahead in sensing and attacking opponents' vulnerabilities; he was so far ahead in motivating teammates. I've posted many times about how he'd throw a long pass to a teammate (Tom Sanders) who was filling a lane even though he knew it would be a turnover...just to motivate Satch to keep filling that lane. The vision for The Cooz was the war, not the battle. It was ironically the same approach Russell took to playing center.

I respect what Magic did as a 6' 9" guy who happened to play the point and probably could have played at least two other positions. But Magic wasn't a playmaking specialist. His main forte as a PG was to throw a lot of long passes to a streaking Worthy. A lot of the other stuff was icing he added to the cake...the stiff-legged dribble, the stiff-armed fake/pullback/pass. The fancy stuff that Cousy did had a purpose other than to entertain. He adopted the behind-the-back dribble during a college game, as a matter of expedience when he was prevented from going to his right by a tight defender. His improvisation was topped only by his painstaking preparation and practice; he made a habit of perfecting a new shot (or variation of a shot) every season.

I've had ongoing debates about Cousy with a variety of very well-informed people since I've been on message boards. I hear all about Magic, Stockton, Maravich, CP3, blah, blah, blah. And I've always had just one question for every one of them who doubts Bob Cousy's supremacy as the ultimate playmaker: "Did you see him play?" And the answer is almost invariably "No, but I've watched a lot of video." Good, but unfortunately no excuse for the real thing.

Well the one thing I can say is "Thanks, Cooz. Thank you for bringing pro basketball into my life. Live long and well."

Sam

Great answer Sam. There was and is no one who could match Bob Cousy on the floor. He was a magician. I used to say that as good as he was, he never got a title until Russell came around. But, then I heard and read Russell himself proclaim that they never would have won a title without Cooz.

It is a wonderful generation we are living in today. Everyone thinks that the current players could out play the oldtimers far and away. I beg to differ with all of them. I have seen them all, and I still go back to that l960's era of Celtic basketball when I remind myself of greatness. How many teams today could claim that they played with eight Hall of Famers?
Heinsohn sits on the edge of his seat sometimes when these subjects come up. You can tell he is chomping at the bit!

To all you who never saw the great players of that era in person, take my word for it. It was a wonderful time to be a basketball fan. I grew up with
those teams. I learned basketball from the great Johnny Most, because we
hardly had any games on television back then. Johnny described every play, and I envisioned it in my head.

So, as much as I love this team now, and the l986 team, the '60's were the
era of greatness in Boston. Thank God for that!!!!

Sam and Rosalie

So if I am hearing you Bob was the best to ever play his position and it was not even close. WHat made him so great was MASSIVE court sense. Clutch distribution and passing and when all that failed he had the skill to either drive to the hoop himself or shoot from about anywhere on the court.

It also sounds like from Sam's post that Cousy RAN AND CONTROLLED the game. He put the game in the terms it took to win it with the talent he had on the floor and he did it when the stakes were highest.

The first thing that struck me watching the youtube stuff was his incredible court vision and passing.

Really great stuff Sam. DJ you out there? If you got time tell me what you saw with Cousy.

JEB

jeb,

By far the best point guard there was in the 50's and early 60's. But in my opinion its questionable as to whether he makes a roster now.The speed of the guards and his lifetime sub 40% fg% would be tough for him to over come.

swish

Swish

From what I saw his ball handling alone would give him a firm place in the nba today.

Plus. He could pass. Pretty damn good athlete also from what I saw.

These how would they do now arguments are tricky aint they?

Thanks
Jeb

Sam says it all. Cousy also introduced me to pro basketball. The one thing that I will add that may not have been discussed before is Cousy's unbelievable confidence in his abilities. Cousy was a pioneer in his playmaking. His manner of play appeared to be one of gambling: no look passes, behind the back, full court heaves, hook passes, no look passes, passes to trailers behind him without ever looking back, hook shots from 15-18 feet. Need I go on?

In those days players did not do those things! Cousy did not do those things to be cocky; he made those plays because the technique called for it.

Confidence. Confidence in your ability, man. Confidence in knowing what needs to be done and doing it!

sdcelt

Inre confidence. It is the very best thing an athlete at that level can have. It's what separates the best from the rest.

sdceltfan wrote:In those days players did not do those things! Cousy did not do those things to be cocky; he made those plays because the technique called for it.

Well... he also did those things to entertain the crowd, not just because it was the appropriate play for the situation. He had a generous helping of "hot dog" in him, and it helped put fannies in the seats.

Nash has many of Cousy's strengths, but I don't think he has Cousy's vision and I know he doesn't have Cousy's creativity. Creativity that I caught glimpses of in Bird.

Outside, Cousy's plays pleased the crowd, and he certainly knew it. But no one can name one of those plays that was gratuitously "showboat" without also accomplishing something on the court. Even the twice around the back (perhaps the ultimate crowd-pleaser) had a function because he could just as easily pass out of it as shoot out of it, and the speed with which he executed it allowed the defense virtually zero time to react to whichever he elected. Moreover, successful performed with obvious ease and flair became even more of a dagger to the opposition. (That could also have been a factor in Magic's more gratuitous showboating, although I suspect his Hollywood surroundings were more influential.)

Jeb, I was careful to say Cousy was the greatest PLAYMAKER ever. There's a distinction between that and being the best ever to play the position. First of all, Cousy's niche was largely offensive. He evolved from a marginal defensive player to a dangerous one because he could afford to gamble in the passing lanes with Russell backing him up. But he never made any all-defensive teams. Second, at 6 feet, he wasn't the rebounder Magic was ALTHOUGH The Cooz was averaging six to seven boards a game in the years before Russell joined the team.

But I try to be pretty specific about claiming Cousy to be the best PLAYMAKER ever. The Celtics were a team of role players, and that was his primary role. He wasn't called upon to be Mr. Everything. Only Havlicek came close to that description.

Swish, one has to consider the differences in the game when one tries to compare eras. Almost EVERYONE shot a lower percentage in Cousy's day, and one of the reasons was the tighter rims (which were screwed right into the backboard instead of being breakaway and much more "forgiving". Another reason was that so much of the shooting was literally done on the run. (How many of today's players do you see semi-routinely shooting 18-foot running hook shots with their "off" hands?)

Another reason pertained specifically to the Celtics of the time. They played what I have called "volume basketball." They focused on getting up a shot within the first 15 seconds of the shot clock almost no matter what the condition was. They were excellent offensive rebounders, often giving them multiple chances if an early shot missed (especially if the defense was not yet set). Even if they didn't get the offensive board, shooting quickly helped them they control the pace of the game and force the opponents to run too. Remember what I said about Cousy (and Russell) targeting the war, not the battle? Who cared about shooting accuracy when you could turn the team into butter with a frantic pace?

There's absolutely no way on this good earth that, in today's slowed-down game, Cousy (if he could have stayed awake at the reduced pace) wouldn't have shot better with more time to do so. He was a good outside shooter, but most of his perimeter shots were "bailout" shots rather than set plays. If he could have scored three points rather than two on those shots, and if the game plan had called for him to shoot more from out there, you can absolutely bet that honing his 25-foot ability would have been right in his wheelhouse.

In short, Cousy would never have played exactly the same way if he were playing today. He would probably have had to tone down his passing game somewhat to accommodate the limitations of many of today's players on the receiving end. He would certainly have elevated his shooting percentage, perhaps by double digits, through more selective and quared-up shooting. Speed? He was never exceptionally fast, much like Nash; but he ran the best fast break ever. And he would have today's players' tongues hanging out, because his focus was on how fast the BALL moved rather than on how fast HE moved.

In short, he had all the necessary tools and far more than his share of the smarts. He made adjustments and adaptations (even during games) when he played; and he would have adjusted and adapted to today's game with ridiculous ease.

Jeb, I blame you for these monologues. You should never have gotten me started. I've tried my best to minimize the historic stuff on this forum (I've recorded some of it on my blog) because I believe it bores a lot of people. But you opened the floodgates this time. It's probably my single favorite pro basketball topic and is definitely my greatest single identification with the game.

Sam

Sam

I take the blame. I hope some of the other guys weigh in who saw him play. You kind of set the bar pretty high with your beautiful post. Apologies for missing the best playmaker reference and extrapolating to best ever at the point guard pos.. I guess some of that goes into what you had to say about Bob's all around game and the impact he had on the floor. But some of it also revolves around what I saw in those vids. I know it is different than watching the man play for a season but what I saw was tremendous court sense and vision and some of the very best most touch oriented creative passing I have ever seen. I knew within minutes that I was watching one of the best passers ever. Better than Bird because Bob had the ball in his hands so much more. And lets face it some of those passes were just sick.

This is a bit of a turn but may I ask you whom you consider the best to ever play the position?

"And he would have today's players' tongues hanging out, because his focus was on how fast the BALL moved rather than on how fast HE moved."

This is very well said and something I regret being gone from the game. The ball moves faster through the air. Too much damn dribbling now.

And Sam there are plenty of other threads for anyone who is bored by the past to read on this forum. This thread is ABOUT the past and I hope some of you other big brains who saw Cousy play will share your insights about the man's playing and how you perceived it.

I sure as hell want to read them.

Jeb

Jeb,

I'm not one for picking the "greatest player" in almost every instance. I only "bit" on The Cooz because he's almost other-worldly in my estimation and I couldn't resist. Also because he achieved personal greatness mainly within the contest of team greatness, which is my REAL interest.

I will tell you this, though. If I were picking a TEAM of six (including a sixth man) to operate in perfect synch and to add to the proverbial total that is far greater than the sum of its parts, I would not hesitate to place Russ, Cooz, Sam Jones and Havlicek on that team. I'd have to think about the other two (because Havlicek would be my sixth man.) Hakeem might be one and Worthy the other. It's no secret what style my team would play; and you can also see that I'm not as interested in iconic stature as in team chemistry.

Sam

Copy that big fella. Hell I'm glad I was able to lure you into talking about cousy.

No lure was required. You could have done that with an unbaited hook. LOL.

sam i want to point out, for the record that after just a little offering of what The Cooz did over his career that my opionion is that the only PG that can really had anything over him was one Dan Dickua.. the reason?




















mrs. dickua

Look for Cousys last game on NBA TV they will eventually show it at some point.I've seen it twice,for a player on the way out he still had plenty of energy and game to spare,still could dictate the pace and control the game,he looked nothing like Bird or Ali on their last legs.He was basically great,his defense was so much better than I thought,he could still get in your face on the ball.He had way more game going on than say what J Kidd has now,his defense was way better than Nash,attacked and probed so well in halfcourt and break,never stopped moving thus always attacking and pushing pace,did have ball in his hands alot similar to Paul,but played at a much faster pace than Paul.Look for this GAME it is must see......and all this on his last legs,he still had it all,can't imagine how good he must have been 5-6 years before that.

Swish

He wasn't called Houdini of the Hardwoods for nothing!
Isn't wise to compare eras with all the advances in training.

Would Jesse Owens be fast today?

He ran on CINDER TRACKS!
He had no "trainer" or "nutritionost."
He wore heavy long spikes.

Good players/atheletes would be good in any era given the advantages of said era.

beat

Well Jeb..now you know why I sent you those clips.In the beginning of Animal House the camera pans to the sign in front of Faber College--Knowledge Is Good.
Obviously there's not much one can add to Sam's "triple double" missive.
I first became aware of NBA games when I was about 6-7 yrs old (58-59).My older brothers were great hoop players and I learned so much from our backyard games (every day and nite).
Our family was a very tight,Catholic,play by the rules,and oh-so competitive unit.My parents were very involved with the church and our Catholic elementary/high school priests,who were often at our house having weekend "cocktails"--talking politics,local issues,,but much more was the constant sports talk.
One of those priests took me and my brother (get your mind out of the gutter--not one of those) to the Garden (nyc) for a Celtic/Knick game---it was that nite that I saw what I wanted to be----Bob cousy put on a show that to this day I've never seen anything like.
What made him so special?The greatest dribbler (ala Marquis Haynes) ever in NBA history--which enabled him to use his mind-bobbling court vision to such an advantage,that he was just having fun with behind the backs and no-looks.
I don't ever think it's fair to compare the player of 2009 to 1956,as to whether Cooz could keep up with todays player---but one thing is undeniable----he was and is the greatest playmaker in the history of the game--uncanny court sense,the complete team player,ballhandling magician,unparralled passing skills(not Maravich,Magic,Larry).
On offense,if not leading the break,he would kill you with his deadly set shot,or dribble through a double team for a 10 ft.left handed hook,not showboating--he could hit them.
The other ,sometimes unsaid asset,was the unique bond/friendship with,as Cooz called him,Ahnold...(Arnold). Red was very much a proponent of team play,no turnovers,crisp passing and playing the game with a respect for the basics--chest pass,moving your feet on D,boxing out,smart shots,etc....so here you have this dynamic,flashy,over the top unique player,who you would think might drive Red crazy with his "style"---but instead,Red embraced it and let Cousy change the game and the rest is history.
Never will be anyone like him.

DJ

Don't forget that Red really did not care for or want Cousy at first!

beat