Would you make a play for Marcin Gortat?

We have not had a legitimate center since Danny traded Perkins. The Celtics and Danny have been playing cheap ball thinking they can bring in a marginal center at a cheap price and still win. It has not happened! You get what you pay for.

Proof of concept was last year, the Celtics were playing mediocre ball until they switched KG to center. KG is a uniquely gifted athlete who pulled off the job of playing center , but he is taking a beating down low at the 5 position by physically bigger centers......often getting pushed off the ball. At this pace, Kg is going to be beat up come playoff time.

I say, time to act before the rest of the NBA begins scrambling for good talent.

112288

Too bad Suns have Scola and Morris at PF, is there enough upgrade with Bass and Sully to entice Suns? Danny would have to get creative.... wonder how Melo does at D-League.

Have not chimed in yet. I'd like to get him as soon as rules allow.

I'd hang on to Sully. Id give um Bass and a guard (Lee and a pick if needed) and if the Suns would go along, throw in Melo too.

beat

Outside,

In my opinion, Lee and Sullinger would vastly preferable to Bass and Sullinger, and it does work salary-wise. It would be the equivalent of giving Phoenix a "big" lottery pick plus a proven commodity in the backcourt. I'd prefer not to lose Sully, because I believe he's got a lot of upside, but I believe you have to give something to get something. I still maintain that it could be disastrous to trade away two players at the same position—especially two "bigs."

As I said earlier, I don't subscribe to the "potential expense of the future" theory. Heck, trading away two relatively young PFs with potentially solid futures could prove costly in the future too. Trading away two future Hall-of-Famers for a skinny rookie center who couldn't shoot could have compromised the future in 1956. It's up to the GM to use what he's got to plug holes, whether now or in the future, and Danny has twice done just that without having a financial asset of $27,000,000 to spend over a two-year period.

I do think that having a real, talented center would be a major benefit for the Celtics, and I'd be especially interested in seeing Gortat and KG play together. But they're not going to play together for more than five minutes at a time, and they're going to need some serious big man depth to fill in when they're not out there and also to be prepared in case of injuries. I think that depending primarily on Wilcox and Collins to provide that depth (especially given Collins' injury history) would be ill-advised. And, the more Green had to stretch his time over two positions, the more the team's depth would be eroded.

All of this is probably moot because I find it hard to believe the Celtics would get lucky enough to wind up with Gortat. I would love to be wrong on that score.

Cow,

"Having Gortat and KG close down the middle" sounds great, but (short of a visit to the fountain of youth by KG) that would happen for only five minutes at a time; and KG would not be available to spell Gortat. Who, on the Celtics, would you trust to sub for Gortat regularly during the 16-or-so minutes he's out of there? A lot of opponent damage can be done in 16-or-so minutes. The one guy who's been subbing for KG is one you'd "trade away in a heartbeat." If Darko were to stick around, it might be different, but he sounds pretty serious about going home.

If they were to trade two-for-one for Gortat, which probably can't happen until either Dec. 15 or Jan. 15 (depending on the trade rules), and if Darko leaves, that will open up two holes in the roster. Maybe the Celts could bring in someone like Kenyon Martin and possibly someone not named Melo from the Red Claws, depending on whether Darko still counts against the cap. I'll defer to gyso on that one.

Sam

Perhaps complicating any "Sully +" trade for Gortat might be this. An article in USA Today, about Sully's close relationship with KG. KG's a pro, and would accept the trade, like he did with the Perk trade, but there might be a hit on chemistry.


Jared Sullinger, under Kevin Garnett's wing, blooms for Celtics



Jeff Zillgitt, USA TODAY SportsShare
1 Comments

Playing for his dad in high school was not always easy, but Boston
Celtics rookie Jared Sullinger still worried about getting yelled at by
Celtics vet Kevin Garnett. Turns out, the two have bonded.


(Photo: Tim Fuller, US Presswire)
7:17PM EST November 20. 2012 -
Boston Celtics rookie forward Jared Sullinger had a preconceived
notion of what playing with veteran big man Kevin Garnett might be like.

He braced for the worst – Garnett yelling at him, Garnett embarrassing him, Garnett cussing him out like only Garnett can.
"I was just mentally being prepared to not cry on the bench," Sullinger said.



Turns out, Sullinger hasn't cried (at least that he has admitted publicly),
and the experience has been rewarding for him after his two years at
Ohio State.


"I learned early it's not how loud he says it, it's
what he's saying. Thanks, Pops," said Sullinger, whose work with Garnett
is helped through the lessons learned from his dad, Satch, who coached
him in high school. "I was blessed to have an angry coach."


Garnett mentors Sullinger, and they have bonded – the old man and the rook.


"His basketball IQ is very high," Garnett said. "He gets it. He understands
what we're doing here. He's bought into what we preach here."


Wise for a rookie, Sullinger relishes the unique opportunity to work with
and learn from Garnett, and in the process, the 6-9, 260-pound
20-year-old has worked his way into a part-time starting role in coach
Doc Rivers' revolving lineup.


"He's still got a lot of work but he does a lot of good things," Rivers said. "He has a veteran mind. He
does not play like a young guy, except he makes rookie fouls. He's just a
good spirit, and it's good to have him in the locker room."


Sullinger is strong near the basket with good footwork and finishing ability and
is active on the offensive glass. His mid-range jumper is average, but
it is sound and should improve. On defense, Sullinger understands
concepts and what the other team wants to do. But he is not used to the
speed and precision just yet.


"When you've got Kevin Garnett in your ear, I'm learning every day," Sullinger said. "It's like that every
day. Kevin is constantly moving his hands, talking, and you just listen
and you're learning everything he sees. As you see what he sees, the
game slows down tremendously."


He is a coach's son, no doubt about it.


With modest statistics (5 points, 4.2 rebounds a game), Sullinger recorded
his first double-double with 12 points and 11 rebounds in Boston's
107-89 victory Saturday against the Toronto Raptors. He scored a
career-high 16 points in Boston's 103-83 loss Sunday to the Detroit
Pistons.


After poor rebounding position on defense led to a
Sullinger foul in a loss against the Brooklyn Nets last Thursday, Rivers
benched him for the final 29 minutes. Then, he came back with his two
best games, against Toronto and Detroit.


Whether the message is delivered in kind or in anger, accountability is the bottom line for
elder Sullinger, who once benched his son in an important playoff game
because a homework assignment had not been completed.


Satch Sullinger lives in results-based reality and passed that philosophy to his son.


"You can't get lost in how people say things, otherwise you're going to be
soft mentally," Sullinger's dad said. "Don't pay attention to how it's
said, just pay attention to what is said. The bottom line is, we're in a
world where either you did or you didn't. It's kind of harsh. Bud, did
you clean up your room? Did you get the rebound? Did you take out the
trash? Did you shut the baseline down?"


Satch Sullinger appreciates the job Garnett is doing with the rookie and thanked him before the Celtics played the Pistons.


In August, when Sullinger moved to Boston and began working out with players, Garnett spotted his desire to learn and improve.


"You have to know your role. You've got to know what you're doing," Garnett
said of the Celtics' ethos. "There's no days off when we work. He has a
no-nonsense attitude when it comes to that. He's gullible. He's a kid.
But he works really hard, and he wants to be better. That's what it is.
Me and Sully have a really good relationship."


Said Sullinger: "You always want somebody like that who's been there, who's won a
championship, to be on your tail, telling you what you're doing wrong
and what you're doing right."




bob




.

I voted No...

...but would be very tempted to do it if we could give them Lee and Sullinger.

Several reasons for the no vote, primarily the fact that this team has some problems on both ends of the court that we have yet to clearly diagnose. Although Gortat is a strong defender, and that's obviously among our issues, I think it's still early enough to see if we can right the ship with what we have. Gortat is good player by any standard, but not great, and the signing would be a fairly costly commitment. I think there will be other opportunities later this season and into next.

I do agree with something Cow seems to be hitting on; we need to find a power forward (Cow; sorry if I'm mis-interpreting you). You can make an argument that a center is equally important but I'm looking at it that despite the ugly picture so far, we may be able to contend this year. If you look at it with our roster right now, Garnett can do what we need at center (not power forward) and Wilcox is looking like he may be rounding back into form and should be able to give us good minutes behind KG at center (but not Wilcox at power forward either). Bass and Sullinger, however, are not up to the task at what has become the dominant front-court position. I think Bass has shown that he can provide good depth when we go small. Without picking it apart with reems of numbers, I think the biggest weakness is power forward.

As I said earlier, there are clearly several problems to resolve with this team. I don't buy the "chemistry" bit with this team because we're returning four starters and have added experienced veterans. I'll also point out that a few years ago we threw a nearly 100% new lineup together and led from the start without looking back in winning a championship, so I'm not going down Chemistry Road.

So if we throw out chemistry issues and look at the "ifs"; if Bradley comes back somewhere close to what he was, if KG can play at this rate and possibly even contribute a few more minutes per game, if some combination of Terry and eventually Bradley can provide suficient depth at point, if Pierce is just starting slow and Green is just slowley coming back from surgery and a year off...

...we need a power forward.

It's early. There may be other Gortats. Pass.

Hi,
One of the reasons, I think, Gortat could be a great addition to the Celtics front line is because Doc could interchange 4 and 5. For instance, start - KG-4, MG-5, then CW goes in for KG and then Sully goes in as 4 and shifts CW to 5; plus JC can pick a few minutes here and there.

I wouldn't trade Sully: he's just 20 yo, has a lot of skills and he's very, very smart player. IMHO, he needs a year or 2 to reach Bass' level and then go beyond it.

AK

The whole dynamics of the Celtics changes with this potential trade. It creates a dynamic defense especially in our front court, improves our rebounding, creates bigger size and matches other big teams, and this will lead to more offense.

Danny...if it's there...go for it!!!! I said in one of my posts last year and the year before that Danny should have gone after this guy.

112288

I'll throw another possibility in the ring. If we are required to give up a guard in the deal.......How about Delonte West coming back at a cheap price.

He brings high energy....and works well with Doc. He loves Boston and has always given a honest days work while on the court and then some! Great defense and he has a nice shot!

112288

The problem is that as good as Sully is hes gonna take time to cash in on that upside, remember how long it took Kevin Love to get to his level, 4 years? We don't have 4 years to wait for him to develop, so if you want to win now with KG, Pierce and Jet, it probably won't happen with Sully whos getting a rookie education and Bass who has overachieved playing with 3 all stars, but before this was a career back up and constantly gets abused defensively, just too small. I agree with NYCelt that overall PF has been a big weakness this season. Bass is not a championship caliber PF and Sully is gonna go through the high and lows of being a rookie.

Could this same personnel get sparked by that attacking greyhound, Avery Bradley? maybe, but our weaknesses inside defense/rebounding will still be there with Bass being undersized and Sully being a non athletic rookie. If you want to win now with KG and Pierce, you need more size or talent. KG can still defend, but he can't do enough inside as a 5 with Bass or Sully right now to cover up for them. We'll still beat the non playoff teams, but the elite? well look at our record. If you want to win now we need an upgrade whether its KG staying at 5 or moving back to 4 if we can upgrade and find another Perk type with length.....seeing so many times tonight Bass getting abused on defense, he hustles, just too small.

Cowen, that was a good observation and comment.

We got KG for 3 years to win now. If we play mediocre ball with this line up we might as well blow up the team and build from scratch. Look at Kg...he does not seem happy.....is body expression says....what am I doing out here I should have retired.

112288

112288

I'm gonna give this team another 10-15 games or so to see what we have and what we can do....actually I'll still follow them the rest of season, right now it doesn't look good. I understand what Danny was trying to do, get deeper, put less pressure on KG and Pierce, keep them fresher for the long haul, but right now is a bad stretch of hoops. Until proven otherwise the Perk deal may have cost us a championship that year, as right now Jeff Green can do more than Quis and Sasha, but the impact is not near the dividend we all expected/hoped for either.If Doc can't figure out a way to get this guy 25 minutes a game avg 12-14 points, then this whole thing is a big failure. These 6-7 point efforts are no where near enough, call plays for him over and over to get him going. We may have a deeper team on paper, but big holes/flaws on the floor that the added depth cannot come near overcoming at this point.

I know we need to improve. I would be very reluctant to trade Sully. I just believe he will be a very good player, sooner rather than later. His intelligence will make the difference. Bird was not athletic, he was smart. He learned how to get his shot. Not that Sully is Bird but you get the point. Doc needs to decide if he wants to go small or try and go big. If we go small we have to swarm , double team, and push push push the ball. We have the players for that. Rondo has to do a better job on other PG's. His defense is not good at all. Gortat will get in foul trouble if the PG penetrates at will. This is just a minor thing on Rondo's part. He is the first line of defense and it is costing us against teams every game. His offense if great, but we flat out don't get stops. I agree wit 112288, we need to make a decision now. I haven't given up and we have a long time to go. As Sam points out we will improve. I think even more minutes by Wilcox would help.

Guards and Bass should be our trade bait. Lee, whom I like and can be effective is the one that probably has to go. With Bass and Lee's salary we can get something from them hopefully. We can't give give up two bigs. Barbosa may not be as good as Lee on defense, but I love his speed and we already know he can score in bunches.

tardust wrote:Guards and Bass should be our trade bait. Lee, whom I like and can be effective is the one that probably has to go. With Bass and Lee's salary we can get something from them hopefully. We can't give give up two bigs. Barbosa may not be as good as Lee on defense, but I love his speed and we already know he can score in bunches.

tardust,

I agree. Giving up 2 bigs to get 1 big, after already losing another big (Darko), will not solve our Big problem.


bob


.

According to a polish newspaper, the Celtics are prepping a concrete offer to the Phoenix Suns for Marcin Gortat. According to the paper, the Suns are interested in trading him to the Celtics, meaning we have some players they like.

I'm always looking for a way to upgrade, but I'm a bit nervous here, I must confess. How desperate do Danny and Doc feel? That will determine who we give up. Remember the KG trade? Minny wanted Rondo and Danny dug in his heels and said "Telfair" plus picks and money. That's the way to do it Danny. With the new CBA, teams are not going to be willing to give the earth, moon and stars for players and neither should we. We want Gortat but do we need him even if it means gutting the team of some potentially great transition era players like Sully and Bradley?

http://clnsradio.com/2012/11/23/celtics-to-propose-trade-for-marcin-gortat/


bob


.

Bob,

I won't hold my breath. The article says:

To acquire Gortat, the Celtics would likely have to move a combination of draft picks, Avery Bradley, and Fab Melo.

There is not enough salary there for this to be taken seriously, IMO. It will take one of our veteran 5 mil/year players, draft picks and one (or more) of our lower salary players.

It is also too soon for concrete offers. Three weeks too soon.

gyso

gyso

gyso wrote:Bob,

I won't hold my breath. The article says:

To acquire Gortat, the Celtics would likely have to move a combination of draft picks, Avery Bradley, and Fab Melo.

There is not enough salary there for this to be taken seriously, IMO. It will take one of our veteran 5 mil/year players, draft picks and one (or more) of our lower salary players.

It is also too soon for concrete offers. Three weeks too soon.

gyso

gyso

gyso,

I agree the numbers don't work. It would require a mid-level player or better (e.g. Terry, Lee, possibly Green plus PHX throws in another player) and a rook or vet minimum. Green cannot be traded until 1/15.


Why is it 3 weeks too soon?


bob


.

NOT BRADLEY...NO NO NO NO!!!!!

The Celtics got to bring up Joseph...he can play NOW.....he is as bright as Sully and would be a nice fit to relieve Pierce.

I am tell everyone now....he is NBA ready!!!!

112288

112288 wrote:NOT BRADLEY...NO NO NO NO!!!!!

The Celtics got to bring up Joseph...he can play NOW.....he is as bright as Sully and would be a nice fit to relieve Pierce.

I am tell everyone now....he is NBA ready!!!!

112288

112288,


If Green is not included in the deal, and he can't be before 12/15, then how does bringing Joseph up now help? He still won't get minutes.


bob



.

Why can he not get minutes for Pierce. I would give the kid a shot. He cannot do any worse then Green is doing and besides a little competition from Joseph might get Greens juices flowing.

Hey...you get to see what Joseph can do...if he succeeds then Green becomes expendable and the transaction becomes seamless.

112288

112288 wrote:Why can he not get minutes for Pierce. I would give the kid a shot. He cannot do any worse then Green is doing and besides a little competition from Joseph might get Greens juices flowing.

Hey...you get to see what Joseph can do...if he succeeds then Green becomes expendable and the transaction becomes seamless.

112288

112288,

I would love to trade Green for Gortat straight up, but it couldn't happen before 12/15 anyway. That's 3 weeks away. If the Suns really want to move Gortat that's an eternity.


bob

.

Okay, let's get definitive in terms of the earliest date when each Celtics player can be traded. I put them all into hypothetical trades in the Realgm Trade Checker, which then identified the earliest trade date for each. I included all 14 players just to be complete. Please do NOT write me asking why I suggested that they trade KG, Pierce or Rondo. I am not suggesting anything.

Sam

Can be traded now:

Bradley
Melo
Sully
Joseph
Pierce
Rondo

December 15:

Bass
Terry
Collins
Wilcox
KG

January 15:

Lee
Green

January 18 (don't ask me why the 18th):

Barbosa

sam wrote:Okay, let's get definitive in terms of the earliest date when each Celtics player can be traded. I put them all into hypothetical trades in the Realgm Trade Checker, which then identified the earliest trade date for each. I included all 14 players just to be complete. Please do NOT write me asking why I suggested that they trade KG, Pierce or Rondo. I am not suggesting anything.

Sam

Can be traded now:

Bradley
Melo
Sully
Joseph
Pierce
Rondo

December 15:

Bass
Terry
Collins
Wilcox
KG

January 15:

Lee
Green

January 18 (don't ask me why the 18th):

Barbosa

sam,

The Barbosa date is 3 months after he signed with us.

To bad the NBA isn't like MLB, then we could trade with an offer of "player to be named later".

If you take Pierce and Rondo out of the mix, I don't think the salaries of all the other players available now add up to a trade, and if they did we'd probably have to trade almost all of them.


bob


.

Bob,

I agree but doing a trade with the wrong player.......makes it the wrong trade.

I guess Management needs to do some hard thinking but you cannot give up Bradley or Joseph. I am telling you now and going out on a a branch but..........this kid Joseph is the real deal. Could be a grade just below Pierce which makes him a great NBA player.

112288