13 Down, 65 Wins To Go!

mrkleen09 wrote:Outside

I have a simple question for you.

Do you think there are different interpretations of the rules for different players?

Of course I do. Star players get star treatment. I hate it. I've never said otherwise.

mrkleen09 wrote:So as long as there are two sets of rules, one for stars and another for the rest of the players – the NBA (and anyone trying to defend them) make themselves look stupid for trying to hide behind the rule book.

Are you saying I shouldn't bother quoting the rules because the league allows star treatment? I quoted the rules about technicals only. Those get applied to everyone. Kobe is always among the league leaders in technicals.

mrkleen09 wrote:Rasheed Wallace is veteran, All Star, Hall of Famer - that gets treated like a rookie and it is a disgrace. I used to laugh at him when he played for the Pistons and get a T a night against the Celtics. But now that I see him on a game by game basis, I see just how much of it is BULLSHIT OFFICIATING.

It is not the refs job to look for trouble. It is not his job to stare down a player, or antagonize the situation. That is exactly what they do to Rasheed Wallace, and it is a embarrassment to the league.

He whines and complains and badgers the officials over calls and non-calls more than anyone else in the league, year after year. Maybe you see the individual action that results in a technical as minor and unworthy of a technical, but look at his behavior all game long. That's where he violates rule 12, section V, e -- "Running tirades, continuous criticism or griping may be sufficient cause to assess a technical." If you do this game after game, year after year, most refs are going to have little tolerance for it. That's reasonable, and he's brought it on himself. If he wants fewer technicals, then he needs to modify his behavior. There's no excuse for a ref baiting a player or staring down a player, but that's not what gets Rasheed teed up.

beat wrote:The NBA refers the the restricted area as the No charge zone. So how could PP be assessed an offensive foul if Bosh was there?

It's the no-charge zone, not the no-offensive-foul zone. You can't plant yourself there to draw a charge. That doesn't mean that a player can never be assessed an offensive foul once he enters the zone. Otherwise, once a player enters the zone, he could just elbow, grab, push (and knee) any defender.

Here's the dunk on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV4UL8lGP_w

Bosh went straight up to block the shot, which he is allowed to do. Pierce, traveling forward at a good clip stuck his knee straight out and thrust it with great force into Bosh's lower abdomen. Pierce's knee caused Bosh to double up before Pierce reached the rim, and Bosh fell to the ground crumpled up like someone who had been punched in the groin, which he essentially was. How is that not a foul on Pierce? Bosh had no chance to make a clean block because Pierce's knee struck Bosh well before Bosh had a chance to meet the ball. Pierce is not allowed to punch, kick, or knee Bosh to "protect himself" if all Bosh is doing is going straight up, which is exactly what he did.

Outside

Outside, I don't think Pierce fakes fouls. I think a lot of times he exaggerates the contact that he does receive just to ensure that the call is made. I don't see anything wrong with that. If Pierce were flailing and falling down on EVERY shot that he missed with a player within 3 feet of him, I would have to agree with you, but he doesn't. Pierce is not the only player who exaggerates contact. I think league-wide inconsistency from refs has forced players to make the contact look worse than it is. I think this inconsistency is also why Pierce has a tendancy to not finish a lot of his shots. He feels the contact and thinks he's going to get a call so he just heaves it up there. Maybe this makes it look like he's faking a foul, but that's not the case. I know a lot of people aren't fans of his up-fake, but that is a legit basketball move. I hate it when it's used against us, but I can't deny that it's a smart play.

Outside

To me PP was defending himself from contact. So I don't think exactly where the knee hit is the point, Bosh was the secondary defender in theis case and is allowed to go straight up to attempt to block the shot.

How many times do we see players on any level do that and still get called for a foul?

Bosh does appear to go straight up. Guess he should have gone up a little higher, or lower.

Was it done by Pierce on purpose? I just do not believe that. He just reacted at that moment to a move to protect himself from contact as he was in the air and in a very vulnerable position.

All in all after reading rules ect..........I say it was a good no call as opposed to my first reaction which was to call a foul on Bosh.

beat

Outside wrote: Are you saying I shouldn't bother quoting the rules because the league allows star treatment? I quoted the rules about technicals only. Those get applied to everyone. Kobe is always among the league leaders in technicals.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The rules are not worth the paper they are written on, and anyone that first admits the rules are subjectively administered and then still tries to hide behind them as some kind of justification – is just doing a poor job of defending their side of things.

Outside wrote: That's where he violates rule 12, section V, e -- "Running tirades, continuous criticism or griping may be sufficient cause to assess a technical."

There you go again, citing those pesky rules. You mean to sit here and tell us that Lebron, Kobe and Wade don’t have a running dialogue with the Refs complaining about calls ALL NIGHT LONG? Give us a break Outside.

Outside wrote: There's no excuse for a ref baiting a player or staring down a player, but that's not what gets Rasheed teed up.

Again, maybe if you watched more of the games you could recognize just how ridiculous this statement is. That is EXACLTY why Sheed gets most of his technicals….because officials are looking to see his reaction, instead of doing their job.

As Donny Marshall said last night – if Salvatore has a keen enough eye to see Rasheed wave his arms from half court….he should have keen enough vision to see that Sheed was FOULED on the play that caused him to get upset. Seems pretty logical to me.

Outside wrote: Bosh went straight up to block the shot, which he is allowed to do. Pierce, traveling forward at a good clip stuck his knee straight out and thrust it with great force into Bosh's lower abdomen. Pierce's knee caused Bosh to double up before Pierce reached the rim, and Bosh fell to the ground crumpled up like someone who had been punched in the groin, which he essentially was. How is that not a foul on Pierce?

NOW, the one time you should be referring to your precious rules, you chose to abandon them in favor of YOUR TAKE on the rules…lol.

The rule clearly states “An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul. The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.”

Does say anything about feeling sorry for the guy that he got kicked in the nuts, doesn’t say anything about how he crumbled. He is in the restricted area, and an offensive foul shall NEVER be called….read it yourself

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList

Outside

If the rules are not called evenly they aint rules. Having watched most every game this year most of all the home games I dont feel our star hall of fame players are getting their share of the "star" treatment. Instead they are being treated with disdain. That worries me. Most people I know agree nba officiating is bad at best rigged at worse. Donahue was real...out there calling games. I was hoping the replacements would be around for a while. Crawford is the worst of the bunch but it aint just him. It is a blight on the game. I hear everyone that says the Celts got to just play and shut up and I have said it myself but I also feel Doc or SOMEBODY needs to be fighting for our players.

I also feel it's time for Crawford and a good chunk of his buddies to go call some whiffle ball games...God help the poor whiffle ball players.

PP's dunk was all instinct. There was no intent on his part to harm Bosh in my opinion. Bosh was in the circle and that made him a part of the food chain.

I'll just respond to a few things:

Mr. Kleen, several points:

-- I don't see how the star treatment system means I shouldn't ever refer to the rules at all. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

-- If you reread my "run you out of town on a rail" comment, you'll see that I said no one is doing that, and I appreciate it.

-- I didn't say I don't watch many NBA games. What I said was that "I don't see enough Celtic games to offer a definitive opinion" (emphasis added) about whether KG doesn't get star treatment. I watch a fair amount of NBA games.

-- I don't think technical fouls are administered unevenly. I do think LeBron, Kobe, and Wade have a running dialog with the refs, and they also get called for technicals. Kobe led the league in 2007-08 and is second so far this year. Last season, Kobe and Wade had 11 (tied for ninth) and LeBron had 10 (tied for 14th). They get called. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbafouls&league=nba&sort=techs&order=true&season=2009

-- I'm more than happy to refer to the rule regarding the no-charge zone. The key provision is regarding "a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated 'restricted area' near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul." This means that a player off the ball can't set his feet within the restricted area in order to draw a charge. It doesn't mean a defender loses all rights and that an offensive player can never commit a foul. I'm not just making up my interpretation of the rule. The rule is about charges, not all offensive fouls.

Kelly -- When you say Pierce's "exaggerates" contact, those are the situations I'm referring to. To me, he often "exaggerates" contact that is not a foul in an attempt to draw a foul. I may have not been clear, but it's not that I don't think he fakes contact when there wasn't any; it's that he jerks his head, waves his arms, and stumbles when there was minimal contact that didn't justify anything close to that reaction. What you call "exaggeration," I called "faking." I hate it as much as flopping by someone trying to draw a charge. I understand that you may consider it a savvy, veteran play, but I really, really don't like it. Also, I know he doesn't do it all the time, just some of the time. I wish he would take it to the hole, initiate contact, and concentrate on the finish, because I think he's much more effective doing that. When he exaggerates contact to draw a foul, he often misses the shot, so he's leaving it up to the ref to make the play. I like it much better when he makes the play, and he is very good at it. I also think that exaggerating non-foul contact hurts him when there is foul contact because a ref may think he's just exaggerating again when he actually got fouled.

To everyone -- I know it's an emotional topic, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on certain points, but thanks for letting me share my views and for providing your responses. I do appreciate it.

Outside

Outside wrote:-- I'm more than happy to refer to the rule regarding the no-charge zone. The key provision is regarding "a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated 'restricted area' near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul." This means that a player off the ball can't set his feet within the restricted area in order to draw a charge. It doesn't mean a defender loses all rights and that an offensive player can never commit a foul. I'm not just making up my interpretation of the rule. The rule is about charges, not all offensive fouls.

Again, you are making up your own interpretation - which is NOT in the rules. You dont have to be trying to "draw an offensive foul" to be in violation of the rule. If you are the secondary defender (Which Bosh was) and you are in the restricted area (which he was) and contact occurs with a player that started his move outside of that restricted area (which Pierce did) - YOU have committed a personal foul. There no way that you can go up to block the shot, create body contact with the player who started his drive outside the restricted area, and NOT be the one responsible for the foul. That is clear as day and there is no gray area there.

This was a charge/block play, so I dont even know what you are talking about when you claim it is about charges and not all offensive fouls....we know that.

Of all the rules in your beloved rule book this is one of the shortest and most clear cut. There is no interpretation there, and if you watch games - even the officials will often point to the semi circle and say to the coach or the player that he had no choice in the matter....in the circle, your foul - period.

mrkleen

not quite


Even if he is in the Restricted Area, a Secondary Defender will not be called for a blocking foul if contact is made while he is alighting vertically in an attempt to block the shot, or if the drive starts inside the lower defensive box.

Bosh could go straight up and it appears no foul is to be called. Which is different than if he "planted" himself within the circle.

beat

beat wrote:mrkleen

not quite


Even if he is in the Restricted Area, a Secondary Defender will not be called for a blocking foul if contact is made while he is alighting vertically in an attempt to block the shot, or if the drive starts inside the lower defensive box.

Bosh could go straight up and it appears no foul is to be called. Which is different than if he "planted" himself within the circle.

beat

Well, considering Bosh didnt go straight up AND was under the rim, I dont think this "exception" really fits here....but fair points.

mrkleen09 wrote:Again, you are making up your own interpretation - which is NOT in the rules. You dont have to be trying to "draw an offensive foul" to be in violation of the rule. If you are the secondary defender (Which Bosh was) and you are in the restricted area (which he was) and contact occurs with a player that started his move outside of that restricted area (which Pierce did) - YOU have committed a personal foul. There no way that you can go up to block the shot, create body contact with the player who started his drive outside the restricted area, and NOT be the one responsible for the foul. That is clear as day and there is no gray area there.

This was a charge/block play, so I dont even know what you are talking about when you claim it is about charges and not all offensive fouls....we know that.

Of all the rules in your beloved rule book this is one of the shortest and most clear cut. There is no interpretation there, and if you watch games - even the officials will often point to the semi circle and say to the coach or the player that he had no choice in the matter....in the circle, your foul - period.

Please, just because I'm referring to the rules doesn't mean it's my "beloved rule book." It's just the NBA rules. I don't know that I've ever quoted them before today, and I originally did so just to show that certain behaviors are specifically cited regarding technical fouls. People here generally want and appreciate when posters back up their arguments with facts and details.

Regarding the Pierce/Bosh play, I think I've found some definitive evidence on the NBA.com site (part of their video rulebook). Play the third video, the one titled "Offensive foul, RA does not apply, shooter extends leg into defender."

http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=31

Outside

Mrkleen

wether or not Bosh went straight up is a judgement call' that said
how likely is any secondary defender able to get there (within the restricted area)
first to move there in time to be able to go straight up and
second perhaps by leaving his man to soon he is also in violation of the defensive 3 second rule.

just a thought

beat

I have yet to see a player shoot drive to shoot a layup or a dunk with straight legs during the entire process of the shot.

beat wrote:I have yet to see a player shoot drive to shoot a layup or a dunk with straight legs during the entire process of the shot.

True enough, but the league does make a distinction when the player kicks, knees, or thrusts his arm into the defender. On the NBA video rulebook page I cited, the last three videos on the page all deal with that situation. The text accompanying the videos specifically says "the Restricted Area does not apply in several situations, one of which is when an offensive player leads with his leg or knee into a defender, even if that defender is illegally in the Restricted Area" (emphasis added).

Video rulebook URL: http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=31

mrkleen09 wrote:Outside

I have a simple question for you.

Do you think there are different interpretations of the rules for different players?

If you say there are, then you entire post complete with quoting the rule book is BUNK. If you don’t, then you must be watching the games with blinders on.

.......


Rasheed Wallace is veteran, All Star, Hall of Famer - that gets treated like a rookie and it is a disgrace. I used to laugh at him when he played for the Pistons and get a T a night against the Celtics. But now that I see him on a game by game basis, I see just how much of it is BULLSHIT OFFICIATING.

Kleen-

I agree that some of the prima donna refs should be shown the door. Guys like Joey Crawford, etc.

But Sheed has dug his own grave, and keeps on digging, when it comes to the refs.

Certain stars get certain calls in the NBA (and in every other sport for that matter). That's obvious. And yes, they get calls that other players don't. That's part of why they are stars. But the way I read Outside's original post was that he was quoting the rules on technicals, which are administered on a much more even-handed basis.

To get a tech, (other than by using an elbow, fighting, hanging on the rim, etc), you have shown up the referee in some way. Kobe does it a lot, and always is at the top of the NBA in terms of getting techs. KG is a HOF player, and he gets a lot of Ts, so career accomplishments and playing ability have very little to do with getting Ts.

It comes down to pissing the refs off, and having them feel dissed- and Sheed has shown an uncanny knack for it throughout his career. There's never been any question about his physical skills. His weakness has always been a lack of control- both mentally and emotionally. There's a reason things have ended badly between him and every team he's ever played for. I've personally watched him melt down twice in playoff games against the Lakers. He just seems to have a switch that gets thrown, then he can't help himself and blows up.

He has been warring with the refs for 12 or 14 years, but has never tried to pull back a notch. Neither has Kobe, which is a source of frustration to me, as I think it is one of the main reasons he gets less calls then Lebron or DWade. But I would never deny that Kobe deserves the Ts that he gets.

I think players are much better served by almost never complaining in a theatrical fashion. Tim Duncan almost never shows up the refs, so when he does vociferously and theatrically complain about a call, he rarely gets a tech b/c the refs feel like they really must have missed something for him to be complaining like that, and he will usually get many calls coming back to him as a result.

Rasheed knows what the boundaries are- he just keeps exceeding them time and again. He's never changed in the way he acts towards the refs, so they haven't changed in their actions towards him. It's a mutual non-admiration society.

Do you think that the reason you're seeing it differently now than when he was a Piston is b/c he is now playing for your team ?


I think he was a great signing for the Cs and has made them a better team. But he is who he is.

When it comes to the refs, Sheed is doing the same thing he was doing in DC, PDX and Detroit for years- it seems like the only thing that's changed is your view of his situation b/c he now plays for your team. You used to laugh at him- why do you not laugh at him now ? Would you feel this way if he had signed with the Spurs this summer instead ?

Sky

Well presented as always but only a part of the wider discussion about some of the older refs who are stuck in serious grooves in the way they call games. And the much wider subject of different standards for different players.

Having watched all the games this year I can tell you that some of the t's against Wallace, Perk and most recently PP have been laughable. I don't sweat Sheed's t's except in relation to what I fear is a significant bleedover to other Celtics who are NOT Sheed.

Also having watched all the Celtic home games it is pretty clear the refs just do not like the team. Dammit if "star" calls are going to be the rule I want our stars to get calls too. It's early but I'm telling you it is a real thing.

The games are about the players and guys like Crawford carry grudges and keep score when they are supposed to be enforcing the nba rulebook. I bet YOU cringe when you see Crawford calling big game. And it aint just Crawford.

Outside wrote:

beat wrote:I have yet to see a player shoot drive to shoot a layup or a dunk with straight legs during the entire process of the shot.

True enough, but the league does make a distinction when the player kicks, knees, or thrusts his arm into the defender. On the NBA video rulebook page I cited, the last three videos on the page all deal with that situation. The text accompanying the videos specifically says "the Restricted Area does not apply in several situations, one of which is when an offensive player leads with his leg or knee into a defender, even if that defender is illegally in the Restricted Area" (emphasis added).

Video rulebook URL: http://www.nba.com/videorulebook/category.html?cid=31

You are REALLY reaching here Outside.

Bosh was under the rim. Even in college or HS or a rec league, you cannot draw an offensive foul when you are under the rim. That is something you learn when you are 12 years old and you get kicked in the nuts and get the foul called on you.

mrkleen

How many times have we seen players shooting threes that extend their leg to the side to INTENTIONALLY draw contact while shooting? Reggie Miller used to do it all the time. This is certainly not a natural motion of shooting a three either.

And who was the foul called on?

It wasn't Reggie!!

PP has done this also and aside form the stupid call 2 years ago on Pierce I have never seen it called on the offensive player ever!

On this play PP raised his knee up in front of him, what was he suppose to do? Bend it backwards?

beat

babyskyhook wrote: Certain stars get certain calls in the NBA (and in every other sport for that matter). That's obvious. And yes, they get calls that other players don't. That's part of why they are stars. But the way I read Outside's original post was that he was quoting the rules on technicals, which are administered on a much more even-handed basis.

Completely disagree. I watched Dwayne Wade get in the refs ear on Sunday, and stay there the ENTIRE NIGHT – did he get a technical?

But Sheed says “and one” and get a tech? That is not ‘even handed’ in any way, shape or form.

babyskyhook wrote:Rasheed knows what the boundaries are- he just keeps exceeding them time and again. He's never changed in the way he acts towards the refs, so they haven't changed in their actions towards him. It's a mutual non-admiration society.

I agree with this….he is his own worst enemy. BUT, it is part of the job of a professional ref to leave old biases at the door and do his job on a given night in an even handed fashion…which they don’t do.

babyskyhook wrote:When it comes to the refs, Sheed is doing the same thing he was doing in DC, PDX and Detroit for years- it seems like the only thing that's changed is your view of his situation b/c he now plays for your team. You used to laugh at him- why do you not laugh at him now ? Would you feel this way if he had signed with the Spurs this summer instead ?

I absolutely see it differently now, as I never saw the guy on a night in and night out basis. I would see him blow up at a ref on Sportscenter, and then 10 days later when the Celtics played the Pistons – I would see him get a T that was also deserved.

Thing is, in the 10 days between – he would have also gotten 4 Ts that I didn’t see and could not pass judgment on. I now see that X amount of the technicals that Rasheed gets are warranted, but more often then not – they are based on past reputation and if anyone other player on the court said the same thing, they would not get a T. That to me is what is unfair about it.

In the long run, Rasheed is a valuable addition to this team, with or without the Ts. He should try to check himself a bit more for the good of the team.

But he is being judged by a different set of rules on a nightly basis – and as one of the best big men in the league over the last decade, he earned the right to get more respect than he does. I don’t spend $150 dollars a ticket to see Bennett Salvatore or Joey Crawford….and the league is doing us a disservice if they don’t convey that message in a strong and emphatic fashion to the referees union.

beat wrote:mrkleen

How many times have we seen players shooting threes that extend their leg to the side to INTENTIONALLY draw contact while shooting? Reggie Miller used to do it all the time. This is certainly not a natural motion of shooting a three either.

And who was the foul called on?

It wasn't Reggie!!

PP has done this also and aside form the stupid call 2 years ago on Pierce I have never seen it called on the offensive player ever!

On this play PP raised his knee up in front of him, what was he suppose to do? Bend it backwards?

beat

I dont know why you are addressing this to me Beat. We are in agreement on this.

Mrkleen

Just a note and it's probably apples to oranges BUT

in the legal system you and I might be charged with the SAME crime. Same set of circumstances ect. We admmit our guilt and go see the guy in the black robe (or stripes for a ref) when the judge sentences us our past is very much considered in the process.

We both get speeding tickets same thing, I might loose my license and you keep yours as this was my 5th one this month.

Again not a great comparison, If sheed goes off to the point of getting a T and another player does the same thing and DOESN'T get one that does not appear or seem right.

Unfortunately it is what it is and it isn't gonna change for Sheed. He needs to a whole lot smarter on the court and let his play do the talking.

I'm sort of reminded of an episode of the Simpsons when Bart is doing something foolish that hurts and causes him to say "OUCH, that hurts!", and does it again and aagain and again and again. Sheed sort of reminds me of Bart.

just a couple of thoughts.

beat

I am not defending Sheeds actions. I am just saying that from what I have seen frist hand this year – the vast majority of his technicals are based on reputation, as opposed to the action at hand.

I agree that if he shut his mouth completely, he would not incur this wrath and there would be no issue. But then what else is he shutting down? How much of his value as a player stems from this emotion, that bubbles right on the surface – overflowing from time to time?

If he is going to lead the league in technicals because of his emotions – but those same emotions allow him to battle down low with Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom, and hit big 3s and jumpers when we need him – I will take the good with the bad.

Mrkleen,

I agree. If we could accept only the good things about people, what a world this would be. But you take the bad with the good. Sheed wouldn't be the player he is without the intensity. Some people wouldn't be as creative as they are without also being messy around the house or office. That's life.

Sam

Like it or not, our reputations precede us...Again it's part of the human condition...Refs are human and they can't help but to have their views biased by what they already "know" about someone. In the NBA, the squeaky wheel gets the T. If RW wants to create a new version of himself he's going to have to act differently. I understand the frustration when he is on the team that we are fans of. Is it unfair that he gets a T faster than others? Yes. Did he bring it on himself? Yes. Will it change anytime soon? Maybe, but only if he does. Should we throw out the rule book or just live with the fact that refs have their biases and until we can program a computer to do it, we are stuck with it. If it can be proven that a particular ref has it out for a player and is going out of his way to punish the player, then the ref should be disciplined or fired...otherwise let the chips fall where they may.

LAcelt

I think the point is that the nba and Mr David Stern need to own the obvious problem they have that is putting everything he's built a risk. If the rules are not enforced it starts to look a lot like wrestling. Many many people including casual observers see this. My friend David a fine ping pong player and friend always says to me when I am getting upset about injustice "You know it's fixed why do you watch." This word is out on nba refs.

I don't disagree Jeb...I think that constant review of the officials is critical in all the sports and probably doesn't occur enough. Maybe the level of competency need to come up. Maybe they need to come up with a way of structuring it so that the feelings of the refs can have less impact. Having said that, we are not unbiased and will probably always see "perceived" injustices against our players more than against players for other teams. I can tell you that if RW were to change his actions, he very well might get different results.
I'm not so sure that the NBA is that much different from the other leagues, it just happens to be in the spotlight now.