The Rest of the Playoffs

sinus,

Are you joking or are you serious about your post about the referees and the league?

The referees didn't do a decent job of refereeing last night. They truly were terrible for both teams.

The league and most people who watch the NBA (us) don't want to see two smaller market teams in the Finals. The league does not control who plays in each series.

When Wade is passive or injured, Miami really struggles with their small ball mentality. Indiana is a great rebounding team and can score on the inside from Hibbert and West. When Ray Allen leads your team in rebounds, you know there is a problem.

The refs were lousy, missed and bad calls, but both ways. The one about not resetting the 24-second clock was the worst.

LeBron's last foul wasn't an obvious foul, but it was a foul. He did step out when setting the screen, which is technically a moving screen, but they allow vastly more egregious moving screens in every game. However, the announcers missed the key point -- when he took that step, he stuck his foot way out and put it directly under Stephenson's foot, which is a dangerous play. The typical moving screen is moving your whole body a hop-step to the side, which means the guy getting screened runs into your body, which has minimal risk of injury. On the LeBron play, however, he sticks his foot way out and under Stephenson's foot, which is similar to putting your foot under a shooter as he comes down from a jump shot (getting "Jalen Rosed"). The risk of injury isn't as severe as doing it to a player coming down from a jump shot, but it's clearly still there.



To me, the foul is because he sticks his foot so far out, and Stephenson does step on his foot. It's not about contact with the body; it's because what he did was essentially tripping.

So far, the Heat have responded to each loss in the playoffs by dominating the next game. We'll see if Indiana is the real deal in game 5.

TJ,
Of course, I'm joking. But, as they say, there's a little truth in every joke.
As for "decent job" - bad choice of words. Should probably be something like "as best as we can".
As I said I didn't watched the game, so I can't judge how bad or how good the refs were.
Agree with " The league does not control who plays in each series. " but I'd put an * at the end: the league has ways to influence the out come of playoff games.
Couldn't agree with you more about RA.

AK

So, by making the remark that "the league does not want to see a Spurs/Indy series", what are you insinuating? How can "the league" avoid it, if it happens it happens? By making this statement, we all are admitting that there is some influence put on these ref's before the game or the series starts. The game will be called differently in Miami, I will place a bet on it!

Rosalie

We have been around and around on this subject. TJ thinks the NBA is a straight up, 50/50 league where the refs call it as they see it night after night.

The other extreme is someone who thinks there is some kind of conspiracy to help more popular teams win.

The truth is somewhere between - where no one is explicitly fixing games, but there certainly ARE superstar rules - where people like Lebron, Wade and Bosh get the benefit of the doubt more often than people like West, Hill and Stephenson.

Will Stern call the refs and tell them to ensure the Heat win? No.
Do the Refs know which team has more stars and which way a close call should go? No Doubt About it.

Now we cant complain too much, as in 2008 - I am sure many times KG, Pierce and Allen got superstar treatment on the way to the finals. But to suggest that the NBA Refs dont come into a game with a preconceived notion of who gets the benefit of most close calls - is to have your head buried in the sand.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:So, by making the remark that "the league does not want to see a Spurs/Indy series", what are you insinuating? How can "the league" avoid it, if it happens it happens? By making this statement, we all are admitting that there is some influence put on these ref's before the game or the series starts. The game will be called differently in Miami, I will place a bet on it!

Rosalie

I am more then insinuating that the league, the owners, the advertisers and the TV stations all make significantly more money when large market or more popular teams are playing. Does that mean the league fixes outcomes? No.
The league does not influence the outcomes of games.
Does anyone really think the league wanted a Spurs dynasty over a Knicks dynasty over the last 15 years?
There is no pressure put on referees to call a game in the favor of one team.
If you were a referee and you knew that Miami will draw huge ratings in the Finals, would you change the way you referee in the Eastern Conference Finals trying to find a way for Indy to lose? I doubt you would. I wouldn't. Neither do the current NBA referees.

The NBA is basically a business seeking profit. Star players and large market teams are glorified. Why else do star players tend to get the benefits of many calls that other players don't? LeBron and Wade are basically allowed to do whatever they want on the court. They run all over opposing players and initiate a great deal of contact yet are rarely called for charging. We have all seen this time and time again. Every once in a while refs will make the right call but they turn the other way quite often. If games were actually officiated properly, these two might actually have to work harder to win.

Indiana plays a tough, gritty style and they've successfully drawn Miami into it, therefore, anything the Heat happen to do will be more obvious to the refs than say if Mia was playing Milwaukee or Atlanta.

tjmakz wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:So, by making the remark that "the league does not want to see a Spurs/Indy series", what are you insinuating? How can "the league" avoid it, if it happens it happens? By making this statement, we all are admitting that there is some influence put on these ref's before the game or the series starts. The game will be called differently in Miami, I will place a bet on it!

Rosalie

I am more then insinuating that the league, the owners, the advertisers and the TV stations all make significantly more money when large market or more popular teams are playing. Does that mean the league fixes outcomes? No.
The league does not influence the outcomes of games.
Does anyone really think the league wanted a Spurs dynasty over a Knicks dynasty over the last 15 years?
There is no pressure put on referees to call a game in the favor of one team.
If you were a referee and you knew that Miami will draw huge ratings in the Finals, would you change the way you referee in the Eastern Conference Finals trying to find a way for Indy to lose? I doubt you would. I wouldn't. Neither do the current NBA referees.

What about that Tom Donaghy scandal?

k_j_88 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:So, by making the remark that "the league does not want to see a Spurs/Indy series", what are you insinuating? How can "the league" avoid it, if it happens it happens? By making this statement, we all are admitting that there is some influence put on these ref's before the game or the series starts. The game will be called differently in Miami, I will place a bet on it!

Rosalie

I am more then insinuating that the league, the owners, the advertisers and the TV stations all make significantly more money when large market or more popular teams are playing. Does that mean the league fixes outcomes? No.
The league does not influence the outcomes of games.
Does anyone really think the league wanted a Spurs dynasty over a Knicks dynasty over the last 15 years?
There is no pressure put on referees to call a game in the favor of one team.
If you were a referee and you knew that Miami will draw huge ratings in the Finals, would you change the way you referee in the Eastern Conference Finals trying to find a way for Indy to lose? I doubt you would. I wouldn't. Neither do the current NBA referees.

What about that Tom Donaghy scandal?

The Tim Donaghy scandal?
He was a criminal looking to make money for himself by doing something illegal.

Exactly. Are there more of "him" out there? Personalities definitely play into this.
There are some ref's out there who want to totally control a game, i.e.: Joe Crawford, Kenny Mauer, Mark Davis, and the wonderful "Violet". I am sure I am leaving some out, but my point is, tick them off and they will show you how they are in total control. This isn't necessarily to say the league is "crooked", I find that a little far fetched. Let's face it, we are all biased a little when it comes to one of our own being picked on. KG certainly has the attention of these ref's now, and does not "get away" with what he used to. Lack of respect? A little, but, more likely than not, control.

Rosalie

Perhaps I am merely a cynic.. but I'm not convinced that all refs are inherently altruistic in their jobs.

k_j_88 wrote:Perhaps I am merely a cynic.. but I'm not convinced that all refs are inherently altruistic in their jobs.

Why wouldn't they be?

The league has a good mix of young and more experienced refs.
Just as in regular life, some have stronger personalities than others.

Every baseball umpire is very different too.

tjmakz wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:Perhaps I am merely a cynic.. but I'm not convinced that all refs are inherently altruistic in their jobs.

Why wouldn't they be?

The league has a good mix of young and more experienced refs.
Just as in regular life, some have stronger personalities than others.

Every baseball umpire is very different too.

Human nature. If one ref was betting, I'm pretty sure there's at least a few more where that came from. And I also think some refs are quite power hungry control freaks.

There is no evidence that anyone else was involved with Donaghy.
Why are we still talking about this more than 10 years later?

Some refs are power hungry, some are passive.

Part of being a fan of a game like basketball that doesn't have clear cut, black and white rules such as fair/foul or in/out is the personalities of those in charge. Players also use this knowledge to their advantage. They know what they can get away with for each referee.

Sometimes they miss calls that are so obvious such as the 24 sec violation last night. Who knows how they missed it. Have we seen how many embarrassing/obvious calls that are missed by umpires almost on a nightly basis?

To err is human. To forgive, divine.

tjmakz wrote:The Tim Donaghy scandal?
He was a criminal looking to make money for himself by doing something illegal.

He is far from the only NBA ref who has a checked past

*Ken Mauer did 5 months in jail and another 5 on house arrest for tax evasion.
*Dick Bavetta was also implicated in the Donaghy scandal.
*Joey Crawford was suspended indefinitely for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight.
*And lets not even get into Scott Foster -who Donaghy called 134 times between October and April - more than he even made to his bookie. Talk about SHADY.

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:The Tim Donaghy scandal?
He was a criminal looking to make money for himself by doing something illegal.

He is far from the only NBA ref who has a checked past

*Ken Mauer did 5 months in jail and another 5 on house arrest for tax evasion.
*Dick Bavetta was also implicated in the Donaghy scandal.
*Joey Crawford was suspended indefinitely for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight.
*And lets not even get into Scott Foster -who Donaghy called 134 times between October and April - more than he even made to his bookie. Talk about SHADY.

I guess this means the league/referees will put Miami in the Finals.
Not sure why I bother watching...

tjmakz wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:The Tim Donaghy scandal?
He was a criminal looking to make money for himself by doing something illegal.

He is far from the only NBA ref who has a checked past

*Ken Mauer did 5 months in jail and another 5 on house arrest for tax evasion.
*Dick Bavetta was also implicated in the Donaghy scandal.
*Joey Crawford was suspended indefinitely for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight.
*And lets not even get into Scott Foster -who Donaghy called 134 times between October and April - more than he even made to his bookie. Talk about SHADY.

I guess this means the league/referees will put Miami in the Finals.
Not sure why I bother watching...

No one said that. Just means your comment trying to label the Donaghy scandal as an isolated incident rings false. NBA Refs are not a bunch to be proud of.

Watch this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpGKC62qvs

Perhaps LeBron should have made a career in acting instead.

And my other thought was, what about the anti-flopping rules??

Now tell me the refs don't realize he is doing this... It's favoritism, plain and simple. Regular players don't get these calls...

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:The Tim Donaghy scandal?
He was a criminal looking to make money for himself by doing something illegal.

He is far from the only NBA ref who has a checked past

*Ken Mauer did 5 months in jail and another 5 on house arrest for tax evasion.
*Dick Bavetta was also implicated in the Donaghy scandal.
*Joey Crawford was suspended indefinitely for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight.
*And lets not even get into Scott Foster -who Donaghy called 134 times between October and April - more than he even made to his bookie. Talk about SHADY.

I guess this means the league/referees will put Miami in the Finals.
Not sure why I bother watching...

No one said that. Just means your comment trying to label the Donaghy scandal as an isolated incident rings false. NBA Refs are not a bunch to be proud of.

Donaghy was an isolated incident.
Donaghy and Foster had been best friends for years. Yes, they talked a lot.
Yes, referees do act like and get into trouble like regular perople.
So, if they fired all of the old time guys do you think that will solve anything?

Fire the guys making bad calls, young or old. The NBA reviews player conduct and hands down punishment. How about they monitor their refs better?

Getting rid of Crawford, Bavetta, Salvatore, Foster, Mauer and anyone else who is too old or too stubborn to be objective would be a good start.

They should then hire an independent council to administer the referees. Not Sterns right hand man. Not some clown the league office has their thumb on. A legit, independent agency - with autonomy.

Have a replay system like the NHL. With a control room in NY reviewing close calls and making the decision. No destroying the momentum of a run by spending 4 minutes deciding the replay. Someone else is paid to be the replay official and they make the call. Period.

The NBA should publish the grading of the refs after each month - show when refs were sanctioned for bad or missed calls. Address when a rule was administered incorrectly.

Transparency is the only way they will ever get the same respect as officials in other sports.

k_j_88 wrote:Fire the guys making bad calls, young or old. The NBA reviews player conduct and hands down punishment. How about they monitor their refs better?

They all make bad calls. How did all 3 referees AND the guy that controls the 24 second clock, all miss that play last night?
Fire all of them?
I doubt Jesus is interested in being an NBA referee so we could guarantee correct calls.

The league does review and punish/fire referees.

Well, Sam, we've finally digressed into another all-time favorite BDC topic. I might as well put my two cents worth in before the door closes or someone points out to me that my mother wears socks that smell. (Yes, the elusive Exorcist/SNL doubleheader!!)

Until the league lifts the gag order on the refs (and who really cares?) and puts a bible in their one hand and raises the other, we will never know their evil or noble intent and we will continue to have the senseless debate.

Would it really make a difference if the refs had to sit through the same grilling process the coaches and players have to go through? Is it really going to affect their "objectivity"? Come on. Bunch of pansies. I'm guessing the league feels the crowd/players/coaches relentlous grilling they receive every night is enough and adding the media to the menu is too just too much to ask or bear. They make enough. Step up to the plate.

db

I think many would agree with me that officiating has gotten progressively worse. The league revolves around its stars, not the game. The refs are enablers of this because they make calls for stars but not others. The culture of professional basketball has to change. The league will still make great amounts of money even if they start cracking down on stars getting away with flops/benefiting from a disproportionate amount of calls. In the long run, it'll be better so no one has to feel like the NBA is fixed/biased to certain teams.