THURSDAY - ASIK TRADE - UPDATE

With this season being a dry run to see what we have, I've come to think I'd trade either Green or Olyniuk for Asik. Kelly is too soft, and his moving on would not trouble me greatly if we could finally land a real center. I'd worry about losing Jeff, but it's frustrating to see so much talent so rarely used to best advantage. (Yes, Rondo's return might make a difference.) I'm starting to think Bass might not be a bad 3, and a frontcourt of Asik, Sully and Bass would match up well with almost anyone. Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:With this season being a dry run to see what we have, I've come to think I'd trade either Green or Olyniuk for Asik. Kelly is too soft, and his moving on would not trouble me greatly if we could finally land a real center. I'd worry about losing Jeff, but it's frustrating to see so much talent so rarely used to best advantage. (Yes, Rondo's return might make a difference.) I'm starting to think Bass might not be a bad 3, and a frontcourt of Asik, Sully and Bass would match up well with almost anyone. Hawk

Bass is way too slow to be a three.  There are about 20-25 starting threes in the league that would run rings around him. He is what he is - a good shooting undersized PF.

Hawk,

I agree losing Kelly O. would not be the end of the world.  He has turned out to be what the scouts predicted.

112288

Ko still needs time to develop. He has skills but lacks strength. Lets ni throw the baby out with the bath water.

Revisit this next yr to see if he has added some muscle.

Dboss

Kelly O has certainly not shown too many glimpses of being the highly skilled offensive player he was touted to be. They said he was the most accomplished offensive player in the draft after we got him. I know it's a fairly small sample (only 380 minutes of playing time) but 38% FG and only 23% on threes? Yikes. And he's softer than a microwaved croissant.

he's 7 freakin foot tall....

he has no d@mned business shootin three's... but he does need to add a good 25+ lbs and take his game inside where a 7 fter belongs.

when that happens i'll bet we got us a very nice power forward on the offensive side of thing's


sorry, I just have never went along with the spreading the floor theory... I want my bigs inside pushing other bigs out of the f'n way and finishing with alley ops, slams and put backs.

im still all for giving this kid a chance..

Hawk, it would be interesting to see Bass log some time at the three. I'd have a whole lot of questions such as whether he could cover opposing greyhounds at the position and whether he could develop some combination of a slashing game and/or perimeter game that many threes are expected to have.

Matty, I believe strongly in spacing the floor because it's one strategy that keeps opposing teams from packing their defenses in the middle, which they do a lot against the Celtics. But I also believe little men, rather than big men, should be the foundation of floor spacing.

Sam

Sam, I have the same questions about Bass, but he has elevated his game in mid-career and maybe there is a bit more upside. Mostly, I was thinking that now is the time to figure out the keepers and not worry about this year's win-lose percentage. Bass is slower than Green and not ideal, but for me the question is would I rather see Green or Asik on this team two years from now, given the other players we can hang onto or acquire.
Given the choice of dealing Green or Bass, I'd deal Bass, but if that doesn't get me a center, I've got to keep thinking. A forecourt of Asik, Sully and Bass would be slow, but then we would be in the market for a 3, not a 5. As for Kelly O., we all know he needs muscle. He may well be greatly improved in 3 years, and I think he will be, but is he likely to be as valuable to the Celtics at that time as Asik would be?
I don't know. In any case, Merry Christmas! Hawk

Merry Christmas to you too, Hawk.

If we had a front court of Ask, Sully and Bass, I bet we wouldn't lost the rebound battle in many games. Whether the opposing team might wind up in triple digit fast points I don't know either. In terms of offensive consistency, defense and rebounding, I'd rather have Bass than Green. In terms of explosive offensive potential, slashing, three-point abilities, speed, and difficulty to replace I'd rather have Green. But I could easily be talked into preferring Asik over either one of them in terms of likely value as a building block.

I really want to like Olynyk, but I've cooled off on him since his Summer League showing. Will he be another of tall projects (like Johnson and Melo) the Celtics have kept around for a couple of years in hopes they could shed the inadequacies that kept them from being strong rotation players? At least he knows the way to the basket on offense, which neither of them really did. But it pains me to say that Johnson and Melo were defensively better suited to the Celtics system than Kelly is. He just plain flails at too many opponents as they pass him. And, as I mentioned on the Game On Thread recently, he tends to rebound with his arms and not with his body; so, instead of bodying other guys away from the ball, he's constantly trying to reach above or around them for the board. So I believe any improvement on his part will have to involve not only a lot of body-building but also changes in his techniques. I'm in his corner as long as he's a Celtic, but it seems as though any possibility of his being a real impact player may way down the road (if ever).

Sam

Sam

sam wrote:You guys are definitely right about the demise of the outlet pass as a lethal weapon.  It was the trigger of the most beautiful sequence I've ever seen in the NBA.  A big snags the rebound, turns and throw the outlet all in one motion while still in the air.  PG receives the ball in the flat and, not more than three crisp passes and maybe four seconds later, the ball's in the hoop without the ball's ever touching the floor.  Of all the plays in all the games I've seen, that was the one type of play that literally had me catching my breath every time.  I kept seeing it but still couldn't quite assimilate the beauty of it.  Fortunately, I have some video of it, but the best videos are in my head, and I really prize them immensely.

Sam

Sam and all

Think the demise of the outlet pass rests mainly on the three point shot. Seems teams are taking on average around 21 per game. Prior to that shooting from 23 feet offered no larger benefit than a dunk. Most shooting back then from outside was done from perhaps 20 feet on in. Thus offenses were a bit tighter to the hoop. Guards were sagged in more allowing for the other team to more easily beat them down the floor. Guards receiving the outlet were a bit closer to the action. Now with the defensive guards challenging the longer outside shots they are perhaps not in the best position to receive the outlet pass, and more times than not have to go back to get it instead of running up the wing and receiving it on the fly. And of course in shooting more from the outside (from the top and wings, not the corner trey) at least 1 player is already "back somewhat on defense to begin with.

Plus with the old Celtics Hondo was just as capable in leading the break as either of the guards. Today few teams have 3 players on the court at the same time that are able to run a fast break.

Still even though the "break" may not be as it was in the past there is still ample reason to push the ball upcourt. Even without a true break I wish I had a dollar for every 18 footer Cowens made from straight away as a trailer to the fast break. Secondary break is darn near as deadly as the original break, perhaps now it may be even more important.

beat

Good observations, Beat. You must have seen a game or three in the past. I don't recall many times when the old Celtics PGs received the outlet pass on the fly. They usually were out in the flat to receive the pass. It was never the length of the outlet pass, but more the speed of the outlet pass that had the greatest impact on zip zip zip score.

Sam

Thanks Sam for your last point. Yes it was definitely the speed of the pass and the speed with which the ball made it to the hoop (by the following pass or passes) that made the difference - not the length of the pass. Maybe that will help to clear up some misconception about what a good outlet pass really is.