Danny Ainge Says Celtics In A Better Position Now Than Summer, 2007

Championship quality teams are built around elite scorers and\or rebounders not players whose calling card is an assist.

swish

swish wrote:Championship quality teams are built around elite scorers and\or rebounders not players whose calling card is an assist.

swish

Rondo can score, rebound, *and* rack up assists.

Let's look at Miami, for example. LeBron is not just a scorer. He is also a distributor, rebounder, and defender. Same could be said for Durant, though he has yet to win himself a title.

The Spurs were never champions based on a volume scorer. Neither were the Pistons of the early 2000s.

Sure, Dallas had Dirk, but they had many other pieces that made it possible to win. How many times did Dirk fail in the playoffs before their title? A lot.



KJ

cowens/oldschool wrote:agreed Perk is still good at that role, but Pierce had a coming out party that whole playoff run, dueling Lebron and Kobe that year you had to have some kind of dynamic force to counter those other forces at SF to win it all.....how do you think we would have done with Cory Brewer or Jeff Green at SF that year even as they are now?

Pierce also went against Wade that year, I believe.

I'm not trying to discredit Pierce at all. I'm just saying that from a structural standpoint, because LA lacked a true center, that was the greatest overall advantage. Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Rondo and Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Fisher essentially cancelled each other out. Then the Celtics still had Tony Allen and Kendrick Perkins vs Ariza for LAL. So, that, I believe, defends my point that Boston had the better team anyway. But don't get me wrong, Pierce was phenomenal that year.


KJ

cowens/oldschool wrote:

Rondo has shown he cannot score enough to carry a team and I love Rondo.

Rondo scores primarily on a needs basis.

If he's feeding the ball to guys like Hump, Green, Bradley, Sully, Kelly, and Bass, it means that he doesn't need to take as many shots.

I like the fact that he's a true point guard, as opposed to a pseudo-point guard like Westbrook, D. Rose, and the others like them.



KJ

Cow,
I beg to differ. Who do you think was carrying the team in '12 playoffs against Mia?

AK

sinus007 wrote:Cow,
I beg to differ. Who do you think was carrying the team in '12 playoffs against Mia?

AK

The fact that Rondo doesn't average 20 PPG is likely the origin of the perception that Rondo can't be a scorer.

But Rondo averaging 20 points isn't what the Celtics need every night. They need guys like Bradley, Green, Sully, and Olynyk to do the brunt of the scoring, and have guys like Bayless and Humphries chip in.



KJ

cowens/oldschool wrote:Rondo, when is he going to have that many HoF players surrounding him again? ever see teams give him an open midrange shot and he can't hit it? happens too much, if he wants a max contract he has to show me he can hit that shot and its getting better, is it there yet? will it be there going forward? cause a prime time KG, Pierce and Ray Allen is not walking through that door.

Ainge will bring in some guns once the opportunity presents itself.

Rondo will be fine. He managed like 15 assists the other night with a team completely void of HoFers. This year, he's averaging 9.5 assists, not bad for missing most of the year. Over the past 5 games, he's averaging 14 assists per game.





KJ

Love this topic for debate but don't have time today for more than a quick drive-by posting.  

This has got to be the most nit-picky, overall low "prove-ability" debate we've had in forever...and I absolutely find it a blast.

Saw the number of people online and thought we traded for Kevin Garnett or something...

Cow is into the heart of the matter in my opinion.

I believe Cow sums up a big part of why I think we were better off at this point in '07.  Paul Pierce.  It's not just picks, and by the way we can't use 'em all this year although they do have trade value.  Rondo is our centerpiece, no doubt.  But I agree with Cow that you need a wing to score and defend on a consistent basis in this league in order to contend.  '07 takes that going away.

We had a roster that looked like this...

Pierce
Gomes
Jefferson
Telfair/West/Rondo
T. Allen

Now we have...

Green
Bass
Sully/Hump
Rondo
Bradley

(I'm not adjusting either roster for in season injury, just labeling positions with main/original starters)

Slight edge to '14 at power forward and big win to '14 at point guard with the adult version of Rondo.  He doubles as '07 depth and emerging star, though.

I don't have time to go into the bench comparison, which in my opinion doesn't lean that heavily in either direction.

Then we had more money, now we have more picks.  Despite having two picks in the first round this year, and one each in the first and second in '07 (prior to trades), it's not yet certain that the picks are in significantly better position this year.  Forget the CBA and it's effect on horse-trading, who can tell me which pick will turn into the next Michael Jordan and which will be the next Greg Oden?

Then we had Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeau.  Now we have Brad Stevens and Jamie Young.  How is this better in '14?

Green is in no way as valuable commodity as Pierce was, as trade bait or a keeper.  Hump and Sully in the low post versus Big Al and his moves?  Bradley's defense is very good, but he's not Tony Allen and Tony could put the ball in the basket with serious slashing moves and slightly better shooting than he was creditied for.

We had the nucleus to trade or keep then.  There is no young Rondo to develop right now, but we do have the adult version which is a huge plus.  But there is no-one to lean on for scoring like we could with Pierce and we aren't two centers deep like we were with Big Al and the defense oriented Perk.  Actually, we aren't any centers deep.  Oh wait; that guy from Brazil still on the team?  You know, Vitor or Melo or whatever his name is...

So I score it three of five positions stronger for trade or future roster to '07 [+1 for '07], clear edge in coaching '07 [+2 for '07], edge in money available under league and contract agreements in effect at each point '07 (no I'm not looking it up, go ahead someone who has the time or desire) [+3 for '07] even bench and possible edge to '14 draft picks [back to +2 for '07].  If you want to assign scores and add 'em up I think '07 wins by 2.

Man, this proves I've got to go get a life today or at least get back to work.  As I said, pointless and fun debate all at once!

I hope this thread keeps going and gets revived on draft day or if any summer deals get done.  It will be interesting to look back on.

NYCelt wrote:Love this topic for debate but don't have time today for more than a quick drive-by posting.  

This has got to be the most nit-picky, overall low "prove-ability" debate we've had in forever...and I absolutely find it a blast.

Saw the number of people online and thought we traded for Kevin Garnett or something...

Cow is into the heart of the matter in my opinion.

I believe Cow sums up a big part of why I think we were better off at this point in '07.  Paul Pierce.  It's not just picks, and by the way we can't use 'em all this year although they do have trade value.  Rondo is our centerpiece, no doubt.  But I agree with Cow that you need a wing to score and defend on a consistent basis in this league in order to contend.  '07 takes that going away.

We had a roster that looked like this...

Pierce
Gomes
Jefferson
West/Rondo
T. Allen

Now we have...

Green
Bass
Sully/Hump
Rondo
Bradley

Slight edge to '14 at power forward and big win to '14 at point guard with the adult version of Rondo.  He doubles as '07 depth and emerging star, though.

I don't have time to go into the bench comparison, which in my opinion doesn't lean that heavily in either direction.

Then we had more money, now we have more picks.  Despite having two picks in the first round this year, and one each in the first and second in '07 (prior to trades), it's not yet certain that the picks are in significantly better position this year.  Forget the CBA and it's effect on horse-trading, who can tell me which pick will turn into the next Michael Jordan and which will be the next Greg Oden?

Then we had Doc Rivers and Tom Thibodeau.  Now we have Brad Stevens and Jamie Young.  How is this better in '14?

Green is in no way as valuable commodity as Pierce was, as trade bait or a keeper.  Hump and Sully in the low post versus Big Al and his moves?  Bradley's defense is very good, but he's not Tony Allen and Tony could put the ball in the basket with serious slashing moves and slightly better shooting than he was creditied for.

We had the nucleus to trade or keep then.  There is no young Rondo to develop right now, but we do have the adult version which is a huge plus.  But there is no-one to lean on for scoring like we could with Pierce and we aren't two centers deep like we were with Big Al and the defense oriented Perk.  Actually, we aren't any centers deep.  Oh wait; that guy from Brazil still on the team?  You know, Vitor or Melo or whatever his name is...

So I score it three of five positions stronger for trade or future roster to '07 [+1 for '07], clear edge in coaching '07 [+2 for '07], edge in money available under league and contract agreements in effect at each point '07 (no I'm not looking it up, go ahead someone who has the time or desire) [+3 for '07] even bench and possible edge to '14 draft picks [back to +2 for '07].  If you want to assign scores and add 'em up I think '07 wins by 2.

Man, this proves I've got to go get a life today or at least get back to work.  As I said, pointless and fun debate all at once!

I hope this thread keeps going and gets revived on draft day or if any summer deals get done.  It will be interesting to look back on.

NYCelt,

For someone who didn't have the time for this you sure got into it!

1.  It isn't Doc and Thibs vs Stevens and Young.  In the interest of accuracy, Thibs was still with Houston that year, he didn't come to Boston until the '07-08 season.  He was part of Danny's off-season upgrade too.  Doc's assistant coaches that year were Armond Hill and Clifford Ray.  Not quite as impressive without Thibs, are they?  Also, it's Stevens and Ron Adams, Jamie Young is at the end of the bench.  That makes it a little closer.  Also, Doc had years with the team and Pierce and this is Stevens' first year.  You can say "that's why '07 wins" but it's what Stevens will be next year that matters.  One could just as easily say "because '07's coaching staff was so much better, and yet they sucked enough to have the #5 pick, that's proof that team sucked worse".  Stevens is still going up.  One could argue that Doc was already at his level of competency, had limited upside from there as a coach and won based upon the strength of 3 future locks for the HOF and an up-and-coming HOFer in Rondo.

2.  I agree Pierce is a big edge to '07.  In close games, you need an assassin and he was ours.  We need one now, I've made no effort to say anything else and, unfortunately, it doesn't look like Jeff Green is going to be it as we all hoped and expected.  On the other hand, with hope springing eternally, just as Doc had years with the team before '07 so too did Pierce have years of experience at being the "go to guy".  This is Green's first year as that.

3.  Delonte West was a good PG.  Rondo, in '06-07, was a rookie and showing promise but NOT who he is today.  Today, we have one of the top PGs in the league and a weak, amorphous backup situation.  If starters lead the team in the playoffs I see the '14 team, with TODAY'S Rondo as the starter, having a BIG advantage over the '06 team with West as the starter.

4.  You think '14, with Hump at PF as only having a "slight edge" over Ryan Gomes?  Really?  You must have fonder memories of Gomes than I do.  He was solid, sure, but you could go deep into the playoffs with Hump starting at 4.  No way, NO WAY, you could do that with Gomes starting.

5.  Tony Allen only played in 33 games that year.  If you remember, Tony was very injury-prone back then.  Tony averaged 16.9points/36mpg.  Bradley is averaging 17.1points/36mpg.  Tony Allen was first named to the All-Defense team in 2012, he was a defensive unknown in 2006.  Bradley was named to the All-Defense team last year, so he's already there.  This enhances Bradley in the eyes of the refs and in the eyes of GMs around the league.  Once again, I think the differences are not as big as you remember them.  

6.  Wally Szerbiak, whom I noticed you left off the list (deliberate amnesia?  I wouldn't blame you) only played in 19 games, but he averaged 28mpg in the ones he played.  He was a major player.  Pierce only played 47 games that year too.  You're looking at Pierce, when he was healthy and a workhorse, but that's not who he was that year.  Wally wasn't healthy either but when he was Doc was playing him pretty heavy minutes.  I don't know if that should be a reflection on Doc's judgment, which would further undercut whatever edge '06 has on coaching, or if that's evidence that '06 was just a weak team.

7.  Then we had more money?  Really?  If you say so but in this new CBA picks are more valuable than they were in 2006.  As far as which pick will turn into the next Michael Jordan that doesn't really matter if Danny packages them with a player, does it?  Then it's the other GM's job to figure that out, not Danny's.  We get the player we want, our upgrade at whatever position he plays, and one of the sweeteners we give up to get him is an asset which, as you point out and I agree with, is a crap shoot.  Do you really think we're going to have 9 or 10 first-round rookies on our team over the next 5 years just because that's how many first round picks we have?  I sure as hell don't.

8.  We have no young Rondo to develop?  How about Kelly?  How about Sully, who is still growing as a player?  How about Bayless, as a point guard and floor general, and Phil Pressey as a shooter?  Chris Johnson?  In '06 we had Gerald Green, whom some of us (NOT ME!) oohed and ahhed over, but he has needed another 7 years of seasoning before he became a real NBA player (he's 28 now and was 21 in '06)?  Sebastian Telfair?  He was 21 in '06 too.  What did he develop into, besides a big mouth gun-slinger?  The only young players you could look at from that team and say "that kid is going to be a helluva player someday" were Rondo (whom we still have), Tony Allen (who stayed but left of his own accord because he wanted to start and that wasn't going to happen as long as we had Ray Allen and Pierce) and Big Al.  The rest were spare parts.  I don't consider Gerald Green, who needed 7 years to be worth something, to be such a big loss.  7 years is half of a long career and that's how long it took him to "arrive". Delonte West was a mental breakdown looking for a time and place to happen.

9.  '06 was stronger at the center position.  Let's not exalt Perk too much here, he didn't really become the player we like now until after KG came and taught him how to anchor a defense. In 2006, he only averaged 22mpg, the same number as Theo Ratliff. So, to really do this right, '06 had Jefferson starting at 4 (and that is a win over Hump) but Perk and Ratliff and Candy Man at center. That is NOT a strong center corp, not back then. Sorry, but Perk was not that impressive as a player (and that's not a stats-oriented opinion, you cannot look at Perk and just talk stats) pre-KG. The difference between Perk before KG and after KG arrived is like night-and-day. Fortunately for the '14 team the entire league is weaker at the center position now too.

10.  I need a life too I guess.


bob


.

NY Celt,

Doc Rivers did less than what Stevens is doing know with which I believe you are saying arguably more assets.

Let's give Brad some superstars to run with.



KJ

Bob,

Yeah, I guess I did get into it.

So much so, and in such a hurry, that I brought Thibs in a year early!

I listed Hump (has anyone noticed I never call him Kardashian any more?) as a center this year along with Sully and Bass as forward, and was comparing Bass to Gomes which I rate a slight edge to Bass. I think Gomes was solid if unspectacular that year.

I'm also lining up Big Al at C, because I believe that's where he spent the majority of the season. As I recall, for the most part, the front line was Pierce, Big Al and Gomes. I didn't look up exact numbers of games, just working from memory. Then again I remembered Thibs being around...

Back to the work I didn't do earlier and am not doing now!

Regards

Oops, I already did.

Sam