No Game within the Game

The Celtics overall executions in close game this year has not improved much.

If you live by the sword you will die by the sword and that is why a Rasheed missed 3 pointer with the game on the line was bound to happen.

Reaching and grabbing and playing defense out of control is why we lost this game. With Both Perk and Sheed and Davis deep in foul trouble it seemed impossible to win a game when the Magic camped out at the foul line all night long.

KG did not look good out there. He is still dragging his leg and every time he attempted to do something athletic the leg would not respond. I sure hope this is just the result of rust becasue right now I do not think he is ready to be on the court.

Nice to see Ray Allen make some open shots. I would however like to see doc go to a defensive/offensive substitution pattern late in games when it is close. Sorry but Tony Allen would have been in there whenever the Celtics needed to be on defense and with all the time outs called at the end of the game there are plenty of opportunities to play ofensive/defense with your rotation (something Doc rarely does)
With the RA /Johnson matchup tonight TA could be a difference maker at the defensive end if he plays more than 12 minutes. Ray Allen cannot check Joe Johnson and I think it is cruel for doc to Keep Ray on him all game long. I remember the year we played them in the 7 game series and I could here Doc say "Come on Ray" everytime Johnson abused him. I say come on doc ...try the other Allen.

RA played 41 minutes last night. This is insane.

Big Baby had (4) offensive rebounds last night (along with him getting several shots blocked)

Rajon (the Allstar) was just cool and calm out there. It will be interesting to see if he becomes a main go to guy down the stretch. The Paul Pierce isolation is old.. very old and less effective... I say put the ball in Rondo's hands and let him make a play for himself or his teammates.

Is Shelden Williams in the doghouse??? Last night with several of the Celtics bigs strapped down with fouls we certainly could have used one more agressive body out there to bang under the glass. Come on Doc...think..

Rasheed Wallace is really a very good post defender and has an uncanny knack of reaching around his man and deflecting the entry pass...His rotation defense however is too slow and that is because he is too slow. I still do not like the 3 point shooting even if he manages to make a few. Him taking a 3 pointer early into the shot clock should not be an option.

I'm looking forward to being at the game tonight. The Celtics are now in a situation where they could be swept 4-0 by the Hawks. That would be very embarassing. If Boston can win the game tonight it will send a clear message to Atlanta that they do not own us despite the previous 3 losses.


dboss

Dboss,

Have a great time at the game tonight. Bring home a win!

Sam

The Celtics lose another game that they should have won. I am putting my comments under this thread because again we see a situation where we have a better defender on the bench and yet Ray Allen is in the game trying to defend the best offensive player in the NBA. To his credit Ray's defense was not that bad because Kobe made a great shot however why not put TA back in the game. TA played great defense all game long. Then on offense you could bring Ray back in the game.

I cannot help but question Doc Rivers' coaching strategy. Situational substitutions should be used in games like this where the outcome is very much undecided and where each possession on offense and each series on defense is critical.

dboss

I think the problem was on offense the last 5 or so where they seemed to just run down the shot clock.

I dont know why they dont let Rondo handle the ball in these situations, are they afraid they will start hacking him?

Good things happen when Rondo is aggressive with the ball not when he just wants to give it up to Pierce as soon as possible.

swede

rondo's hesitance to shoot cost us but we wouldnt have been there without him.

Very awful slow mo offense that is not working against high school teams anymore.

But plenty of Sam's glimmers.

I feel like puking.

Dboss,

I have to say that same thought crossed my mind. Tony played a fine defensive game in addition to a terrific offensive game. I think he's more under control than in the past when I'd have been certain he'd go for a Kobe upfake and foul him. However, Ray did play very good defense on Kobe's last shot, and it should never have gotten to the point where one shot could beat the Celtics.

Sam

I am really concerned about Ray Allen more than any other player. The Celtics may not be good enough to win unless Ray shoots the ball better.

Firstly he averaged 37.5 MPG this month and is shooting .437% from the field and only .319 form the arc and even his free throw shooting during January has dropped off to .837 ( That's a great percentage but certainly not what we expect from him.

I think Doc Rivers is playing ray too many minutes. Ray is a 30 MPG player at this point in his career. I just do not know why they do not use TA more. He is a better defender than ray, more physical and has more energy.

I am not even sure if Ray is still a starting quality 2 guard. He has scored 9 and 7 points the last two games. It may be time to bring him off the bench and educe his minutes.

dboss

[quote="dboss"]Sam

I am really concerned about Ray Allen more than any other player. The Celtics may not be good enough to win unless Ray shoots the ball better.

Firstly he averaged 37.5 MPG this month and is shooting .437% from the field and only .319 form the arc and even his free throw shooting during January has dropped off to .837 ( That's a great percentage but certainly not what we expect from him.

I think Doc Rivers is playing ray too many minutes. Ray is a 30 MPG player at this point in his career. I just do not know why they do not use TA more. He is a better defender than ray, more physical and has more energy.

I am not even sure if Ray is still a starting quality 2 guard. He has scored 9 and 7 points the last two games. It may be time to bring him off the bench and educe his minutes.

dboss

I'm with you,I love everything about Ray,but hes not getting it done,if he could have just hit one or two more shots we win and this team is not good enough to win against the elite with him going 0-6 from 3.TA can play well with starters and off Rondo.I'm open to starting TA and limiting Ray to 25 minutes to keep him fresh.Almost every match up hes giving away speed and quickness at the 2,he can't even dominate JJ Reddick who TA can post and abuse,TA has a knack for getting steals,I would give TA a shot.

cow

serious talk?

Dboss and Cow,

I've posted some stuff on Ray in the post-game thread, so I'll just elaborate on one point here.

When Ray joined the Celtics, he had to adjust from being the designated sniper to being a complementary offensive player while not being the weak link in the defensive dominance that brought them the title. It couldn't have been easy for him, especially with his ankle problems at the time.

And the same expectations have been thrust upon him in the ensuing two seasons. It could very well be that his minutes with the Celtics, given the defensive emphasis, have been more wearing than ever before in his career—advancing age or not.

Guarding Kobe (injured or not) in a help defense scheme is a monumental task, and it was bound to be draining (both physically and mentally). But I believe the Celtics missed a golden opportunity to attack a vulnerability while freeing Ray from running so much on curls and around the perimeter on offense. I would have posted up Ray against Fisher (because Kobe was guarding Rondo) on one possession and then put Ray on the perimeter in the next possession.

One side benefit might have been that, if Ray had gotten into the offensive flow while on the block, the rhythm of his outside game might have improved as well.

Sam

Sam

Don't mean to be bashing Ray,but TA to me has earned more minutes and I think Ray has been given too many and its affected his shooting.Also I don't think Ray can post Fish,has never had a real post game,not his thing,lets see how TA and Ray respond.....not that Doc would listen to me,but if it was me I'd give Ray a shot off the bench and less minutes to INCREASE his effectiveness.KG and Pierce can still space floor and take their turns going inside,I wouldn't mind seeing better defense,slashing and energy with TA playing with starters.....he and Rondo totally took over that game in 2nd,why not see how this could work?

cow

jeb65 wrote:cow

serious talk?

yes

cowens/oldschool wrote:Sam

Don't mean to be bashing Ray,but TA to me has earned more minutes and I think Ray has been given too many and its affected his shooting.Also I don't think Ray can post Fish,has never had a real post game,not his thing,lets see how TA and Ray respond.....not that Doc would listen to me,but if it was me I'd give Ray a shot off the bench and less minutes to INCREASE his effectiveness.KG and Pierce can still space floor and take their turns going inside,I wouldn't mind seeing better defense,slashing and energy with TA playing with starters.....he and Rondo totally took over that game in 2nd,why not see how this could work?

cow

I bet if Doc follows your train of thought it would improve Ray's shooting touch 100%. His legs are not getting the proper vertical lift to get his old shot back, that is why he is just a hair off every time. Good thought.

112288

112288 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Sam

Don't mean to be bashing Ray,but TA to me has earned more minutes and I think Ray has been given too many and its affected his shooting.Also I don't think Ray can post Fish,has never had a real post game,not his thing,lets see how TA and Ray respond.....not that Doc would listen to me,but if it was me I'd give Ray a shot off the bench and less minutes to INCREASE his effectiveness.KG and Pierce can still space floor and take their turns going inside,I wouldn't mind seeing better defense,slashing and energy with TA playing with starters.....he and Rondo totally took over that game in 2nd,why not see how this could work?

cow

I bet if Doc follows your train of thought it would improve Ray's shooting touch 100%. His legs are not getting the proper vertical lift to get his old shot back, that is why he is just a hair off every time. Good thought.

112288

Thanks bro,it just makes so much damn sense to me.....we should grab a bite in the city sometime.

Cow,

I've seen Ray play down low on small guys, although he doesn't get a chance that often. He's pretty good at jockeying and fading back for short pops at will, while his defensive man screens out his own shot-blocking teammates. I wouldn't do it as a matter of course but as an occasional change of pace to keep the defense back on its heels and not so tightly glued to him on the perimeter.

There is a decent argument for giving Ray bench time. Probably the strongest point is that the Celtics five-man combination with a better +/- rating than any other (including the starters) involves Ray and the bench. However, there are some reasons why I probably wouldn't favor that move.

1. I'd prefer playing Rondo big minutes (nothing like Cousy in his race horse heyday, so obviously duck soup for Rondo in this era when the athletes are acclaimed as so vastly superior to their ancestors). Including minutes with Tony (and hopefully Daniels) on the bench. I believe the bench would then emulate what the old Celtics used to do—come in to rest the starters while amping up the energy levels to opponents' dismay.

2. If Tony replaced Ray for significant minutes with the starters, I feel the spacing of the starters could very possibly go straight to hell. Pierce is not a legitimate "spacer" because he roams rather than sticking mainly to the perimeter. No one else in the starting unit is a "spacer." If you think opponents sag (including sagging off Rondo) now, you haven't seen a fraction of what would happen without Ray on the perimeter. He's a threat who draws attention even if his shot is sputtering a bit. (In fact, drawing attention is a primary reason why his shot has been sputtering a bit.)

3. The Three Amigos have pretty good chemistry among themselves, and that represents a nearly three-season investment. I wouldn't like to see that broken up in favor of starting a new learning process with Tony in the starter mix.

4. As I said, I do think Rondo and Tony could be formidable together. But, if that happens with a starting unit including Pierce, Perk and Garnett (who likes to pick his spots to race down the floor), I think that five-man unit could actually be divided into two contrasting sub-units. I think the uptempo opportunities are much better with the younger (except for Sheed) bench.

Sam

There's a fifth factor too—the matter of deference.

When a complementary player is thrust into a starting environment, it's natural for that guy to be very deferential not only at the beginning but sometimes indefinitely. I'm sure Perk and Rondo had to work their way through that syndrome (and possibly still are, especially in the case of Perk).

I'd hate to see Tony's aggressiveness tempered by excessive deference. I can just see the scenario now. "I've got an opening; let's go for it. Wait, isn't it KG's turn? Oops, where did the ball go?"

For a long time, Tony has quite obviously had to fight feelings of being inferior. He's had to be careful about what he says in public. He has not been averse to hanging his head upon occasion.

Now he finally seems to be playing instinctively. He's not afraid to go a little nuts out there—but with surprising control. When he makes a really pivotal play, he can't restrain himself from a little dance because he's genuinely pumped.

I say include Tony on the bench unit, where he can exert maximum unconstrained mayhem. I say include Sheed on the bench unit, where he can exert maximum influence. I say include Glen Davis on the bench unit where his overpowering desire to please will bring out the best in him. I say include Daniels on the bench unit to form a slashing duo with Tony, while the defense collapses and Eddie sets up outside like a vulture in the wide open sky.

Sam

Sam all good points,we'll have to agree to disagree on this one,another athlete running and hounding with Rondo and the starters can/will just make that unit better.I still want Ray to drain 3's,with a few less minutes and without having to be matched against younger more athletic 2's from the start,a fresher Ray can also help the team be more effective.

Cow,

I believe that, unless they get a really good backup PG (questionable), Rondo will continue to see considerable time with Tony and the bench. (And puhleeze don't tell me about overplaying Rondo at age 24 or I'll direct you to a certain Mr. Cousy, who made Rondo's minutes look paltry.)

How do you address the floor balance issue I raised if Tony replaces Ray? (And I guarantee Pierce isn't the answer.)

And the best bet for a fresher Ray is named Daniels.

Sam

Sam

I didn't mention limiting Rondo,how did we look 2nd quarter vs LA?We would be a scrapier more athletic team,Ray will still get his touches,do you want to keep on seeing him clank open 3's and expand so much energy early as young 2's go right at him?If floor balance is that big a problem and we get off to terrible starts like we did with Ray vs LA,we can always switch back.....I wouldn't mind seeing some better D early,more steals and running early,Rondo needs a slashing hounding partner in crime and to my chagrin TA has shown he can provide that element.Its not like were winning and Ray is tearing it up,Ray is more off than on lately because a number of factors,many of which you already touched on.I just feel a little less minutes could get his stroke and game more consistant as we all want Ray ON!!!

cow

Cow,

You're thinking about the desirability of risking proven chemistry to inject some very desirable individual skills. You're also talking about overbalancing the bench with two perimeter specialists and another player who's not averse to bombing either. Balance is extremely important because the lack of it can mess up five players (not just one) on offense.

Perhaps, if Paul is out for a while, we'll have an opportunity to see how Tony plays with the starters; but, even then, they'll still have Ray in there to balance the floor.

We'll see how it all plays out.

Sam

Sam
Read everyones comments and yours on the last game on thread vs Wizards,I missed the game,but it seems TA is consistantly bringing it both ends,Ray doesn't do that.I don't want to see anymore 2-12 FG games from Ray,if his shot is off hes not helping us in enough other areas.....nothing is etched in stone,start TA for reasons said,if Ray is on can still have him playing with starters later.Can't base everything on one game,but vs Magic when Ray was on in first half he faded badly in second half.Why not get that spark later in game by having TA and Rondo establish a physical tenacity and uptempo.....then have a fresh Ray in for the close or blow up the lead as a sniper?If we keep on losing same way over and over,whats that....time to mix it up,less is more.

cow

Cow,

I keep saying the present isn't the future. Just as you don't want to see a lot of 2-12 FG games from Ray, I don't want to see a lot of the shorthandedness, discontinuity and dysfunction that are the causes of a lot of this stuff. Actually Ray played a pretty fine defensive game on Kobe. I call that "helping in another area."

In hindsight, you're able to say Ray wasn't as effective in the second half of the Magic game as he was in the first half. Is Doc supposed to ignore that first half, pull out his crystal ball, and say, "I predict Ray's going to cool off in this half, so I think I'll replace Ray with Tony?" It doesn't work that way.

Ray gets a lot of his points out of the flow of the game, rather than by creating his own shots (except by running curls). He's more dependent than some players on the fluidity of the offense as a whole. Ray's also a better shooter if he has at least half a second to set himself.

Were all the conditions that affected him the same in the second half as the first? What adjustments did the Magic make? How did the Celtics counter those adjustments? Perk was in foul trouble and was replaced by Sheed for long periods. Did Sheed occupy defenders down low the way Perk might, or did Sheed do some roaming? If the latter, the Magic defense was more easily to defend against perimeter shooting.

For a long time now, the Celtics have been anything but a stable, complete entity. Shortages, disruptions, and discontinuities have been whacking them from every side. And they've affected no one more than Ray, who has played every game and has been subject to not one but two very unsettled situations—one with the starters and the other with the bench.

I hope that, over the remainder of the season, he'll be able to focus largely on his most natural and familiar role—that of starting SG for the Celtics—within the context of a much more fluid offensive flow. You'll be amazed at how reenergized he's magically likely to look if that happens.

Sam

Sam

I hope your right and Ray gets his stroke back,either way don't think Doc will start TA and use Ray as a 6th man.....haven't seen any good fourths from us or Ray in a long time.I just really believe Ray could be effective as a sniper off the bench in a role actually similar to House.This year Rays sadly not been able to get it going.One good half in the last 6 games or so is not enough from the position,his D on Kobe was good,but what did it do to his offense?A coach has to put players in position to succeed,are we doing that with Ray or further burning him out and losing key parts of games that are adding to losses?I would be open to change and TA has earned a shot in my book.Father time doesn't wait on anyone,adjustments are needed,the same rotation now is not going to get same results as 08.

cow

Cow,

Agreed about putting players in a position to succeed. That SOUNDS good. But it's more difficult to do that if the entire team is subject to a lack of continuity. Even with KG back, it's still not the regular starting team because they can't depend on him for quite as much as they could before. Even that's a form of discontinuity because it requires adaptation.

I suspect Ray could do well with the bench in a role similar to that of Eddie. But why have a duplicate? Why not work at maximizing the talents of both Ray and Eddie in their respective roles on the two units once the team gets back in gear?

You may not realize it, but nearly everything you say implicitly assumes that the conditions affecting this team will continue to exist. I don't believe that because, if it's true, forget about any championship aspirations. They're not going to win a championship operating on a wing and a prayer, with rag tag combinations and walking wounded.

The question is not what Ray's defense took out of his offense. The question is what Ray's defense AND being a regular on both the starting and bench units took out of Ray's offense. There's a huge distinction there, and this is just one of the implicity assumptions about the future that's not correct if Daniels comes back.

Tony has definitely earned a shot at playing time. But, on offense, Tony Allen is pretty much of a one-trick pony in the forecourt. He's a penetrator. But the starters already number two of those. You'd apparently favor their having three penetrators, along with Perk and KG, and only an occasional perimeter threat as starters.

Trust me friend, you absolutely need to think more about balance. Replacing a starter on an NBA team doesn't work like some way awarding a merit badge to an achieving boy scout does. Tony, despite the sort of play that has me salivating for the rest of the season, has absolutely not earned a place in the starting unit because he does not possess that combination of attributes that will best complement the rest of the starting unit. One way a coach puts players in a position to succeed is to surround them with complementary players. He certainly doesn't substitute a semi-redundant player for a bona fide complementary player.

Actually, I think Tony would be a better replacement for Paul Pierce than for Ray Allen among the starters, although I'm obviously not recommending anything of the sort except in emergency. My reasoning is that at least Tony would be replacing (and possibly improving on) one skill (penetration) of the guy he replaces; and he'd almost definitely be an upgrade over Paul as a possible running mate for Rondo. (Ray gets up the floor prety well.) One problem would be that the bench doesn't seem to function well with a guy whose most natural "default" tendency is to go iso. There's too much "Koby-ish" standing around and watching Paul do his thing.

Planning for the stretch run is not simply a matter of determining who's currently having good games and making them starters, while tossing the remains onto the bench unit. That's grade school stuff.

In the pros (at least with the Celtics), it's a matter of finding two complementary blends of player capabilities so as to identify one unit that can excel against opposing starters and another unit that can excel against opposing benches—and then practicing the hell out of both units to make them cohesive and put every player in a position to succeed. Then you hope for no injuries. At least the Law of Averages has to be with the Celtics on the last part.

Sam

Sam

Thats exactly what I am worried about that the present conditions that affect do exist.....you seem to believe thay will get better,they could......if Ray is still unable to make an impact 10 games after all star break,still in a season long slump,then what are they gonna do?Tony may be a one trick pony on offense,but he also impacts on defense,he can play with Rondo in a tenacious backcourt that Ray is incapable of doing.We become a better defensive team and would have one of the worst longrange shooting backcourts in the game.But Ray hasn't been able to get untracked all year either,maybe one of every 5 games if that.You have great explanations for why Ray hasn't gotten off,discontinuity,injuries.......how about fatigue and age,is that possible?
Look at the young players Cavs have encorporated into roles on the fly Hickson,Jawad Williams,they'll be getting Leon back and Delonte and Mo Williams too,now suddenly that team has so much depth.....and now we just bury SW and we never develop Walker while Lakers have developed Brown.I want status quo to work,up till KG's recent injury it was.....lets see what happens.I'm not as confident as you this present rotation will work.

cow