No Game within the Game

Cow,

1. At this point in his career, Ray is more a beneficiary of an offense in rhythm than an antitode for an offense out of rhythm because, except for running curls, he's more of a catch-and-shoot guy rather than someone who creates his own shot.

2. Once KG first went down this season, the starting offense has never been in any sort of consistent rhythm. It's struggling to get back there—a struggle slowed by the tentative nature of KG's recovery progress. (I have tapes of the missed alley oops and the Rashard Lewis drive to reinforce my "tentative" claim.)

3. If Ray stays with the team, the Celtics' best chance at success rests in doing everything possible to restore as much of the starting unit's rhythmic pattern as possible and hoping Ray can feed off that potential in the matter to which he has been accustomed—while he is hopefully being freed from the additional burden of additionally being a virtually regular member of the bench.

4. Tony offers talents that are currently proving to be a dynamic reinforcement for the bench. (And, by the way, who's the old pro helping to complement him and space the floor for him as a bench player? Ray!)

5. You seem to think think that, because Ray's game is not showing to best advantage (for which you choose to assume Ray is the reason rather than the lack of consistent rhythm among the starters), the solution is to plop Tony and his talents into the starting unit (my "toy soldier" theory). That would create an overbalance of penetraters and a dearth of floor-spacing perimeter specialists in that unit. Do you assume that creating these dual imbalances will somehow improve the rhythm of the starting unit. Can you say, "Packed defenses?"

6. The Celtics, with Tony representing a significant portion of their starting lineup, have proven nothing. The Celtics, with Ray representing a significant portion of their starting lineup, have won a championship. It's not as though Ray is nursing an injury. I'd prefer to work toward enhancing the starters' rhythm (including, hopefully, a more "complete" version of KG) and trusting that Ray will feed off that improved rhythm to recapture at least a lot of the old Ray.

7. I'm not worried all that much about the number of Ray's minutes, but I'm concerned about the fact that those minutes have him spread too thin in terms of his roles. Ray's also been a victim of the fact that Marquis Daniels has been unavailable. So, when Quis comes back, shouldn't Ray be given an opportunity to focus primarily on just one major role—his familiar starting one?

8. I'll go with trying to reestablish the "tried-and-true" rather than making this the equivalent of a midseason rebuilding effort.

Now, based on all the rumors, the Celtics may well decide to trade Ray. In that case, I have to assume they'd be looking for a younger outside weapon in return. In that case, I feel the team chemistry would work better if the new guy were spacing the floor with the other four starters than as if Tony (and his totally different set of skills) were suddenly plopped into the starting lineup.

And, while I'm on a rant, IF the Celtics should sign a backup PG, I hope it would be one who runs a good fast break, because I think an uptempo bench could represent a great counterpoint to the Celtics' starting lineup.

Sam

Okay Sam your right good points,you really outworked me.

Cow,

It's not a competition. I really believe what I'm saying, as you do.

More important, Tony continued to look great tonight. I was thinking of you as he did his Energizer thing...and also reflecting on my comment that I felt he'd work better with the starters as a replacement for Pierce than as a replacement for Ray.

I'm not quite sure how to say this without ruffling a lot of feathers. But I believe one of Doc's challenges during the remainder of the season will be how to monitor the imprint Paul Pierce has on this team versus the imprint the "Young Turks" have on the team. I'm feeling a distinct undercurrent of partially tapped energy among the Rondo-Perk-Davis-Tony group, and perhaps Daniels can be added.

I just hope that this youthful energy (which pervades both the starters and the bench) can more fully achieve its rightful balance in the Celtics arsenal of weapons by the time the playoffs arrive. Because, if they can find a healthy balance (is that a brand of margerine?) between the impacts of the veteran savvy and the youthful exuberance, we could potentially be a fulfilled group of people for longer than just this season.

If these guys can stay healthy, I really believe we're all in for a fascinating remainder of the season—and enough opinions and conjecture to fill several message boards.

And, by the way, I believe the reason why Ray is still shooting a lot of blanks from the perimeter is the flatness of his shot. You may want to read what I wrote about it in the post-game thread for this game.

All the best,

Sam

Sam

Worked late last nite,missed game,saw TA's steal in highlights.....I also think this kid Walker can play,shame we haven't developed him more,the thing about Ray is all year whether with whatever circumstances,seen him get his shot and looks that he would want and hes just not hitting them enough.So you can say flat shot,I'm sure your right,something is off,did he play too many minutes vs Bulls in playoffs and its carried over to this season?Who knows.....I think he could do Houses role better than Eddie and less minutes could help him,again I still am rooting for Ray,McHale went back to bench in 91 to get a quicker team in there,to me if Rondo has another athlete to hound and run with,can take advantage of the speed of both of them,makes our defense even better.I still remember in 08 when Ray missed a few games for a stretch and we played great with TA starting and I noticed our defense was even better.During that stretch were some really sick lockdown defensive games.Am I dreaming that the added defense and speed didn't hurt us too bad in those games and we still had spacing when Posey and House got there minutes?

cow

Sam I have a feeling your going to outwork me again,and I can't argue your points as they have definite validity,just agree that my points also make some sense.

Some great posts here by Sam and Cow. I definitely like the concept of having at two quick, energetic guards in the starting lineup. I also see how moving Tony from the bench would create a void there. I've been saying for a while now that I really think Ray coming off the bench would be a great thing, and I definitely agree that Ray could play Eddie's role better than Eddie. I just don't think anybody on our bench deserves to be a starter right now.

Cow,

You have a good memory. I found four games in 2008 (maybe you can find more) in which Tony replaced Ray in the starting lineup.

In the first game, Tony scored and admirable 20 points in 33:30 of play, as the Celtics bombed the then-hapless Heat 117-87 and Pat Riley said, "I'm embarrassed by the effort." Leon Powe had a then career-high 25, Roneo had a then career-high 23, and Eddie had 20. Paul Pierce had only 7, which may or may not say something about the chemistry among the revamped starting group. (Scal also replaced KG.)

In the other three games, Tony's stats were:

Boston 99-Milwaukee 77:
Tony: 5 points in 26:44

Boston 93-San Antonio 91:
Tony: 4 points in 26:05
(17 for Sam Cassell in that one)

Boston 94-Houston 74:
Tony: 6 points in 20:53

Tony had a total of two assists in those last three games.

Tony actually had a much better stretch as a starter before the Three Amigos joined the team. It may be significant that he tends to break out when he isn't playing with both Pierce and Garnett. Which is exactly one of my concerns in terms of chemistry if he replaced Ray in the starting lineup.

Sam

Sam
Tonys stats weren't great,but you just backed me up proving that we can and have won with Tony starting for Ray.I believe Ray didn't play in those games so if we also have access to Ray,we've got to be even better.Your saying no driving lanes and spacing,but look how good we looked vs LA recently in 2nd quarter.....and we did win those 4 games from 08,and now Rondo is so much better.With TA thats one of the best defensive backcourts in league to complement the best 4-5 defensive combo in the game in KG and Perk.
cow