HAVE THE CELTIC'S BECOME UNCOACHABLE?

If I may paraphrase Doc "We went away from our game plan in the 3rd period and we deserve what we got"!

There is nothing more to add or comment on. I'll leave my post open for discussion!

112288

If ever there was a plan.....I did not see it today.

Fortunate that Howard got in early foul trouble, and unable to capitalize on it in the second half. Sans Howard Orlando is a very average team at best.

Jerry Tarkanian wrote:If ever there was a plan.....I did not see it today.

Fortunate that Howard got in early foul trouble, and unable to capitalize on it in the second half. Sans Howard Orlando is a very average team at best.

Jerry,

The plan was ball movement and attach the paint aggressively as they did in the first half! Nothing close to that in the 3rd period. With Howard with 4 fouls early in the third they never challenged him to draw the 5th. That's not the coaches fault, it the players! Pathetic!

112288

...start praying for a small miracle....that this team will develop the chemistry it needs to overcome the quarter droughts....If you look at this team, there is generally one quarter that they suck in....absolutely suck in.....that directly leads to their loss....If they could deal with these inevitable let downs enough to at least tread water and not go way under...then anything is possible.....

How far the Celtics have fallen from a team that closes out the opposition to a team that stands helplessly by and allows the opposition to close them out quite passively. Once again the bully has taken our lunch money!-MD.

Breen Jackson & Van Gundy are loving every minute of it. Lebron would have torched us for 50 today!-MD.

". . . we deserve what we got." Wow! I keep wondering what Red would do. I doubt he would be so philosophical and lackadaisical.

Doc's supposed to be a players' coach, but that seems to be the case only if the players are starters. It's horribly ironic because the bench guys are playing their hearts out.

Whatever happened to accountability? If a guy is playing poorly (i.e., Paul and Ray), why leave him in there? You used to have to earn your minutes. Not under Doc. All you have to do is show up and point to the numbers on your paycheck.

Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks as though Paul's turning into a cancer on this team. He doesn't hustle, doesn't even move his feet. There's no enthusiasm in his game. He jacks up threes like he's the second coming of Antoine. It's no coincidence that they went on a winning streak when Paul was on the sidelines.

Ultimately, the fault lies with the coach. He benched Pierce once when he first took over the team. Now he's afraid to sit him down even when he's hurt.

Is there something going on we don't hear about? Is Pierce threatening to jump off the Mystic River Bridge if he doesn't get his minutes? Obviously, his agenda doesn't involve things like team and winning. Ubuntu my arse!

112288 wrote:

Jerry Tarkanian wrote:If ever there was a plan.....I did not see it today.

Fortunate that Howard got in early foul trouble, and unable to capitalize on it in the second half. Sans Howard Orlando is a very average team at best.

Jerry,

The plan was ball movement and attach the paint aggressively as they did in the first half! Nothing close to that in the 3rd period. With Howard with 4 fouls early in the third they never challenged him to draw the 5th. That's not the coaches fault, it the players! Pathetic!

112288

They were only able to attack the paint as a result of Howard committing a pair of foolish fouls.......did not appear to be a plan to this observer. Celts are too perimeter oriented in my opinion this year............and hard to overcome the double digit FT deficit that is indicative of teams that play on the wing.

I do not blame the coaching staff............just feel the team as constituted is unable to consistently score in the paint. Perhaps (and I truly hope) good health will allow Doc greater versatility. Ball movement without an interior threat is a self defeating prophecy in my experience.

tyroneshoelaces wrote:". . . we deserve what we got." Wow! I keep wondering what Red would do. I doubt he would be so philosophical and lackadaisical.

Doc's supposed to be a players' coach, but that seems to be the case only if the players are starters. It's horribly ironic because the bench guys are playing their hearts out.

Whatever happened to accountability? If a guy is playing poorly (i.e., Paul and Ray), why leave him in there? You used to have to earn your minutes. Not under Doc. All you have to do is show up and point to the numbers on your paycheck.

Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks as though Paul's turning into a cancer on this team. He doesn't hustle, doesn't even move his feet. There's no enthusiasm in his game. He jacks up threes like he's the second coming of Antoine. It's no coincidence that they went on a winning streak when Paul was on the sidelines.

Ultimately, the fault lies with the coach. He benched Pierce once when he first took over the team. Now he's afraid to sit him down even when he's hurt.

Is there something going on we don't hear about? Is Pierce threatening to jump off the Mystic River Bridge if he doesn't get his minutes? Obviously, his agenda doesn't involve things like team and winning. Ubuntu my arse!

Pierce "jacks up threes like he's the second coming of Antoine"??? Even with today's 1 for 6, he's 45.6% on threes for the season. That's the dumbest criticism of Pierce I think I've ever heard. Keep jacking 'em up Paul. And Pierce is "a cancer"??? Sheesh. I know you're pissed about losing today's game, but God, get a grip.

steve

Paul was 1 for 6. What's not to criticize? If Sheed kept missing like that, people would be all over him. If your shot isn't falling, you should be doing other things, like playing defense. That's what we used to praise Larry Bird for doing.

You're wrong about me being pissed. I'm flat out worried. I don't care about losing games in the regular season, I do care about getting ready for the playoffs. This guy's supposed to be the captain, the leader, but I'm not seeing anything like that.

The fact is that Paul's having the worst rebounding year of his career. He's lost a step. He cries to the officials while the other team races up the floor (Atlanta game). He doesn't box out. He doesn't dive for loose balls. He doesn't play with any sense of urgency. If I point these things out, it isn't my fault there are so many flaws in his game.

Why should anybody get a free ride? Paul's living off past glories. I don't care if he's shooting 90% for the season. If they aren't falling for him in this particular game, why keep taking them? Answer? National teevee, the three point contest. He's all about Paul.

Last week before Paul got hurt, quiet, make-no-waves Rondo shot his mouth off about someone on the team with an agenda. Who do you think he was talking about? There's a power struggle going on within the Celtics, mainly between Paul and Rajon. Maybe it's time to take off the blinders and take sides.

Even his recent injury has negative overtones. My high school coach liked to say that injuries happen when you don't play as hard as you can.

I don't even blame Paul for what's happening. He is who he is. Ultimately, the fault lies with the coach. Fire Doc (How's that for dumb?)

spike

There are certainly more than enough theories to go around. I found it interesting to hear Donny Marshall's take about Pierce. He was obviously working very hard to be diplomatic, as recognized by Gary Tangway.

Donny said something like the following. Paul's not simply saving himself. He is giving his teammates an opportunity to prove they can do it. It's very likely that, later in the season, Paul will put the team on his back.

There's nothing I like about any of that! Paul's presumably one-fifth of the starting unit, and the team is in great need of establishing a rhythm incorporating five-fifths of the starting unit, not four-fifths. Yet the ironic thing is that, when they struggle, Paul reinforces his imprint by forcing an iso mentality on the team. (It was infectious in the third quarter today.)

I respect Paul's desire to play even when injured. I don't respect any inclination (injured or not) to lay back and patronizingly see what the other guys can do. Doc has now mentioned that Paul looked like he was struggling yesterday and didn't look good out there today. Doc has every justification to send a resounding message in the Captain's direction by holding him out of the next game and putting (perhaps through ownership) intense pressure on Paul to go through whatever procedure is required to opt out of the all-star festivities. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if Paul were even held out of a couple of games after the break.

In the meantime, I'd insert Tony in his place (now that Quis looks as though he can take up a lot of the slack on the bench). I'd insist on a constant ball-movement and even call a lot of plays for Tony to slash. At the very least, that should open up inside-out possibilities at which KG and Rondo excel. (If they can't make the wide-open perimeter shots, at least they will have tried a logical tactic.)

Hopefully, the starters' offense would regain some liveliness and it would spread to the defense. My objective would be to have Paul Pierce return to a team concept that is aggressive and active, so he would hopefully be forced to fit into that concept rather than having the team fit into his concept. One thing I'd like to accomplish by this approach is to get Ray going by some means other than wide, strength-sapping curls. Other teams (Magic?) find ways to free perimeter players for wide open shots without elaborate curls.

The whole thing might sound daunting, but I bet Doc would get Rondo's full cooperation as well as KG's and Ray's. They also missed an open Perk a few times today, and i know he'd welcome more touches down low.

What happens to Tony when Paul returns I don't know. But, if my idea bore fruit, it couldn't help but jack Tony up—whatever role he was assigned to afterwards.

Sam

Sam,

If you look at the turnovers, it killed us. First half only 3 TO. Third quarter we had something like 7 or 8! That is one of the weak spots of the Celtic's.

112288

112288,

The Celtics believe in the extra pass, but they don't move without the ball. Passing from stationary man to stationary man just invites
opponents to jump into the passing lanes. Remaining stationary also invites three-second infractions.

If the Celtics could just get into the habit of coming to the ball a lot more, they'd cut down dramatically on their turnovers. Teaching
Perk how to hold a pick wouldn't hurt either.

Ironically, one would expect that an uptempo offense might result in elevated turnovers. I believe it has the reverse effect. Passing to a
moving target usually results in a completed pass more often than passing to a stationary target.

When the passes aren't working, the Celtics tend to over-dribble, and most of them (except Rondo) are high dribblers, which invites more steals. And Pierce is a lazy dribbler too; he has a sort of loping dribble that is easy to time and jump in to intercept.

So I don't believe the turnover problem is going to go away unless they miraculously start moving better without the ball. (I wish!) But they can win a championship at roughly their current turnover level. They did in 2008 (15.2 per game then, 15.6 both last year and this year).

They just need to do some other things better. On offense, more alert and crisper ball movement is chief among them. On defense, better pick-and-roll defense and better defense of the inside-out game are chief among them.

Sam

damn boys i spent 15 hours roofing today and came home to this. Shucks another loss at home. Teams are just whipping us in our gym. That bugs me.

I dont think PP is healthy. He looks like a different guy after that knee shit. I'd sit him a few games.

Jeb

And one question guys. How was Marquis today?

jeb65 wrote:And one question guys. How was Marquis today?

Jeb,

He never missed a step. He looked great!

112288

well that's a king hell glimmer. Nice to have the full complement of players...now lets build some frickin chemistry.

Pierce,KG and Ray all look different,Ray shows up a half every 4 or 5 games or so,today Ray looked like he has most of this season,not able to hit his shot.Pierce and KG hopefully will look better,KG showed a little flash of rebounding better,wish he could score down low in traffic better.Pierce has trouble finishing his drives since his knee was infected,now I heard hes on antibiotics,that can't be good for his overall strength and energy level.

Anybody getting sick of seeing all these knee braces and wraps?I would rest Pierce until after all-star break.This is an old and brittle team right now,not able to give a good hard 48 minutes.....painful to watch.I hope Pierce and KG can get back their games.If this is how team looks 10 games after all star break then were in big trouble and changes will need to be made after season.We have no post players on offense right now,forcing us to the perimeter for too many stretches.If Sheed,Ray,House and Pierce were all around 40% could be a good strategy,but too many 0-6 games fron Sheed and Ray.....again painful to watch.

cow

I didnt see it but you sound unusualy gloomy so it must have been bad. I concur about kg and pp being diminished but dont on ray. Not from what ive seen. he's doin a lot of good things out there.

Glen and Quis and Tony are going to give us a youth boost.

Healthwise though it's starting to feel very 1988. And that sucks.

jeb I love Ray,just watch the games,last good half he had was the previous Magic game,he got us big lead then we fell apart as no one could do anything in 2nd half,notice a theme here?then he shot poorly,subpar for the next few games and finally had a decent shooting game vs Nets,who were in that game for too long until Eddie had a burst.Hes getting his shot its just not falling this year.

cow

He does way more than shoot. He's a glue guy. The best one we have on the team and it aint even close.

tyroneshoelaces wrote:steve

Paul was 1 for 6. What's not to criticize? If Sheed kept missing like that, people would be all over him. If your shot isn't falling, you should be doing other things, like playing defense. That's what we used to praise Larry Bird for doing.

You're wrong about me being pissed. I'm flat out worried. I don't care about losing games in the regular season, I do care about getting ready for the playoffs. This guy's supposed to be the captain, the leader, but I'm not seeing anything like that.

The fact is that Paul's having the worst rebounding year of his career. He's lost a step. He cries to the officials while the other team races up the floor (Atlanta game). He doesn't box out. He doesn't dive for loose balls. He doesn't play with any sense of urgency. If I point these things out, it isn't my fault there are so many flaws in his game.

Why should anybody get a free ride? Paul's living off past glories. I don't care if he's shooting 90% for the season. If they aren't falling for him in this particular game, why keep taking them? Answer? National teevee, the three point contest. He's all about Paul.

Last week before Paul got hurt, quiet, make-no-waves Rondo shot his mouth off about someone on the team with an agenda. Who do you think he was talking about? There's a power struggle going on within the Celtics, mainly between Paul and Rajon. Maybe it's time to take off the blinders and take sides.

Even his recent injury has negative overtones. My high school coach liked to say that injuries happen when you don't play as hard as you can.

I don't even blame Paul for what's happening. He is who he is. Ultimately, the fault lies with the coach. Fire Doc (How's that for dumb?)

spike

You write "Paul was 1 for 6. What's not to criticize?" My point exactly. Paul was 1 for 6. That is MUCH too small a sample for a comment saying he jacks up threes like Antoinne. Everyone can have a poor game. ESPECIALLY someone coming off an ankle sprain who probably shouldn't be playing. I repeat, he's currently shooting 45.6% on threes. You have no case. And that cancer accusation still has me shaking my head.

Steve,

WHAT cancer accusation? I missed that one. Old eyes!

Sam

Sam

I wrote this: 'Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks as though Paul's turning into a cancer on this team. ' Steve thinks I wrote that Paul "is" a cancer. Perhaps it's just a failure to comunicate, but I did start the sentence by admitting that I could be wrong and continued by saying 'it looks as though' and he's 'turning into'. Not 'is' but 'is turning into'. Lots of wiggle room there, if you ask me. A solid statement of fact, if you ask steve. I suppose it depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is.

I based that apparently hideously offensive statement on a number of things.

1) Rondo's comment about agendas, which was almost certainly aimed at Paul;
2) Paul taking the outlet pass too many times recently and slowly dribbling the ball upcourt while Rondo waves frantically and calls for him to advance it to him;
3) all the little things that Paul isn't doing, such as boxing out, hustling, moving his feet on defense, making the extra pass, and on and on;
4) Paul's insistence on playing even when he's barely able to walk and is clearly hurting his team; and
5) most egregious of all, Paul's defiance of Doc's new rule about three pointers.

In case you missed that last bit, Doc was on WEEI a couple of weeks ago saying he had instituted a new rule that, if a player misses two three-pointers in a row, he can't take any more until he finds another way to score, such as driving or passing or hitting a midrange shot. Doc didn't say so but I think the rule was aimed at Sheed, who, to his credit, has been abiding by it.

So, for the team captain to defy his coach's orders in such a brazen fashion, let's just say it doesn't cut it with me. Many times in the last few weeks, Doc has talked about how he tells the team to do one thing in the huddle or in the locker room, then they get out on the court and do something different. You have to ask yourself, who is he referring to. When you combine what Doc's been saying with Rondo's talk of agendas, well, that's why I think Paul is metastisizing the team (or whatever it is that happens in the precancerous stage).

No one can argue with one fact: when Paul was sidelined, they won those games and were an exciting team to watch.

Here's what I think is happening: Paul is not really suited to being the captain. He leads by example or did until this year. But Rondo is extremely well-suited to being the leader of this team. Watching Rondo pat Perk's backside was almost as good as watching Peyton Manning blow up.

Rondo's uptempo game is exactly the way Paul doesn't like to play. There's a changing of the guard on this team and Paul appears to be resisting it as hard as he can. Remember earlier this season when we were all talking about how they didn't look like they were enjoying playing together. I keep thinking about when Doc took over the team and tried to introduce such things as ball movement and help defense, while Paul fought him tooth and nail until Doc finally got fed up and benched him.

I hope I'm wrong about all this. That's why what steve said it doesn't bother me. I'll be happy to eat some crow (probably tastes like chicken). I have faith in Paul's good nature and desire to get along. The blame lies with Doc more than with Paul, although Doc's in an extremely tough position.

One last thing: regarding shooting percentages and the question of whether a shooter should keep shooting even though his shots aren't falling and he's hurting so badly that he shouldn't even be playing - in Paul's last five games, he's made 7 of 20 three point attempts, or 35%, which is roughly his career average. Players tend to shoot their average over the course of the season, which means, over the second half of the season, Paul's going to stink as badly as the elephants used to make the old Garden smell, back in the good old days.