HAVE THE CELTIC'S BECOME UNCOACHABLE?

Looks to me like Ray is going to be the scape goat for this team this year. If you think for one minute that I think he is the main reason this team is losing, you are crazy. I loved the Wallace signing at the beginning of the year, however, he is beginning to look OLD! He just doesn't do what the team needs him to do and that is to play close to the basket. Those three pointers just aren't falling for him, for every one good game, he has five lousy ones. I hate to say it but he was a mistake. This goes against everything I usually stand for. I like the decisions that Danny has made in the past years, and even thought this was a good one, but Rasheed is OLD.

I will be one sorry fan if they trade Ray, but I see it coming.

I agree with you Ray Allen is a top flight guy, great locker room presence, and like his game better than that of Pierce this year.

I said on my visits here in November as the season started that Sheed was a bad fit as he is now at best a 6'11 perimeter threat and our need was interior presence, and was vilified for it. I take no offense, too old to worry about such things and always willing to be proven wrong if it is to a team's benefit.

The issue is not now, I believe with continuity Doc might surprise some people in April and May (Not in June however).

The issue as I see it is Ray's contract has value at the deadline and none in the off season, as the Celts will still be handcuffed per the cap.

Inside sources, very highly placed, tell me a 3 or 4 team deal is in the works, we may see Kevin Martin and Tyrus Thomas come in one deal and perhaps KirkHinrich in another separate move. Salary considerations are not my niche and I'll let others with more nimble minds play out the realities of such moves, my sources tell me Jason Thompson or Spencer Hawes might move here as well in consideration of cap matching.

Anticipated cost to the C's would be Davis, Allen, Perkins and at least a future Number 1 pick, perhaps throw ins such as Giddens or Walker too.

Chicago is seemingly interested in Allen's contract and Davis, the Kings in Perk and draft picks. Kings are also, though less, interested in Josh Howard and it would behoove the powers that be to move aggressively if they choose to reload now.

If no move is made, be assured, I'll still greatly enjoy this years edition down the stretch, as I agree with Sam, the sum of the parts has yet to equal the potential for success.

In the immortal words of Bill O'Reilly, 'What say you ?'

hey Tark

Ol sheed aint working out all that great is he? But some games he is great...hard to figure.

So who are these cats saying goes to the Celtics?

jeb65 wrote:hey Tark

Ol sheed aint working out all that great is he? But some games he is great...hard to figure.

So who are these cats saying goes to the Celtics?

These moves could have been done a week or so ago when you and I chatted about it, Jeb, and other teams are now bidding, but what do you think of a rotation as detailed below ?

FIRST UNIT

C: Hawes
PF: Garnett
SF: Pierce
SG: Martin
PG: Rondo

SECOND UNIT

C: Wallace
PF: Thomas
SF: Daniels
SG: House
PG: Hinrich

I am no cap expert though that group looks fine to me and would provide the upside of younger talent with more favorable and longer term deals. There are no takers in the league for Wallace....so make the best of him by pairing him with a shot blocker at PF.

As an aside, Chicago would have little interest in re-signing Ray, and, if willing, he could elect to return to the C's at a discount next season.

Tark

I guess I aint the sharpest can in the six pack. But trading Perk and Ray seems to me like just damn giving up on the season.

I just got it in the back of my mind that these guys are going to pull it together.

I seems like some of the fellas on the board were pretty put off by the Orlando game. I didn't see it. But a lot of guys that are not alarmist are ringing bells right now. Hell let me sleep on it.

Jeb,

Agree we take a hit at the C position this year, though I believe Hawes has great upside, and a juxtaposition at this time of year will not bode well for chemistry. Just feel better to add to the future than settle for an at best Eastern Conference Finals berth this year. I think the present unit CAN beat Atlanta and Orlando with a common commitment, but not Cleveland.

Allen can be moved for good value now, and the options this summer are far less attractive.

Hellz Tark Cleve worries me the least. They got two big slow bigs and rely on the three and LJ's iso crap late. I think we match up well with them.

The Hawks are the ones that give me the willies. The Magic might beat us in six or just flat poop the bed...who knows with them but they rely an awful ot on the perimeter game as well.

To be upfront here tark I dont see a clear fav. Each team has significant troubles. Cleve is white hot right now but i feel peaking too early...

what do the rest a yall think about tark's trade here?

Jeb

Appreciate the insight, Jeb, and the season series versus Atlanta would bear you correct...........but what have any of those players done in the postseason ?

Atlanta is a year away IMHO.

And I have always advocated controversial moves...and been criticized as well. But who that defended the signing of Sheed when I stated he was no backup C is willing to say he is a good fit in that slot now ? How many rebounds per minute has he averaged ? And what percentage of his offensive game is in the paint ?

I love Ray and in a different cap environment would love to see him work through his issues right here in Green. But where will that strategy leave the franchise in a year or two ?

My biggest problem with all of this is that Ray has been over worked all year long, really for two years. Whenever he needs a starter to stay on the floor, doc always goes to Ray. He played almost 40 minutes last night. That's cutting hours????? I'm glad he isn't going to the all star game for one reason--REST! I wish they would make Garnett and Pierce stay home too.
I wonder if the team has anything to say about that.

All of these moves you are suggesting just don't make sense to me. I guess if Danny is giving up this year, than maybe it all does. To me, an old timer, this isn't the way you treat a guy who has broken his back for you.

And don't mind me, Jeb, I LOOK for forums such as this where the participants are knowledgeable and the discourse spirited !

Appreciate you,

Tark

RosalieTCeltics wrote:My biggest problem with all of this is that Ray has been over worked all year long, really for two years. Whenever he needs a starter to stay on the floor, doc always goes to Ray. He played almost 40 minutes last night. That's cutting hours????? I'm glad he isn't going to the all star game for one reason--REST! I wish they would make Garnett and Pierce stay home too.
I wonder if the team has anything to say about that.

All of these moves you are suggesting just don't make sense to me. I guess if Danny is giving up this year, than maybe it all does. To me, an old timer, this isn't the way you treat a guy who has broken his back for you.

I do not believe in giving up on this season, rather, opening up new possibilities for success this year AND next. C's will have serious problems this summer and next year given a commitment to the status quo.

rosie t i concur...i shorely do. and tark always glad to have another hoop freak around.

Thanks, Jeb

And keep in mind they are not MY trade initiatives. This is what the C's are attempting to make happen as we 'speak'.

Personally, I would make a run at Amare and attempt to re-sign him with Ray's $.

Adding he on the front line and swapping Allen's in the First Unit would make more sense to this observer...alas, I have no intuition as to what Phoenix might do. Now if you want to talk about Wark and Denver..........lol

Jerry Tarkanian wrote:

jeb65 wrote:hey Tark

Ol sheed aint working out all that great is he? But some games he is great...hard to figure.

So who are these cats saying goes to the Celtics?

These moves could have been done a week or so ago when you and I chatted about it, Jeb, and other teams are now bidding, but what do you think of a rotation as detailed below ?

FIRST UNIT

C: Hawes
PF: Garnett
SF: Pierce
SG: Martin
PG: Rondo

SECOND UNIT

C: Wallace
PF: Thomas
SF: Daniels
SG: House
PG: Hinrich

I am no cap expert though that group looks fine to me and would provide the upside of younger talent with more favorable and longer term deals. There are no takers in the league for Wallace....so make the best of him by pairing him with a shot blocker at PF.

Tark,

We'd get eaten alive at the C position by Orlando, Cleveland, Atlanta and the Lakers with that lineup. Hell, I don't know a team that couldn't kick our starting centers butt with that lineup. Hawes is a backup center on any other team.

Furthermore, with that much turnover in the roster you can pretty much forget about a ring this year. There will be almost no chance for them to get it together in time for the playoffs.

bob

Truly would weaken the C position, but one has to give something to get something.....and, truth be told, we're already being eaten alive by each of the teams you interject.

If no moves are made what do you see as the 2010-2011 rotation and how successful might that group be ?

Tark

The attached is from your own post, bob:

Red Auerbach faced three great critical junctures; when Bill Russell was added to the mix in 1956, when Russ retired in 1969, and then after John Havlicek retired and his core aged in the late 1970s.

In the first instance, Red brilliantly understood he needed to get a defensive center to elevate his slightly above-average team to legitimate championship contention. He made a trade for the ages.

In the second instance, Red drafted Don Chaney, Jo Jo White and Dave Cowens in consecutive years and corralled Paul Silas is a steal from Phoenix. The Cs had but one losing season and were two-time champions in the early to mid 1970s.

In the third instance, Red drafted Larry Bird and then brilliantly traded for Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. The 1980s Cs were one of the great teams in NBA history, winning three flags. Again there were only two seasons with losing records separating the Hondo-Cowens teams from the Bird era.

The critical juncture following the slow descent of the Bird-McHale teams in the late 1980s and early 1990s was not so kind to the Cs. Between 1988 and 1993 the Cs were a solid winning team, built around its aging Hall-of-Famers as well as some intriguing young players. But the team was never a serious threat to win the title. When the original Big Three were retired or over-the-hill and Reggie Lewis died in 1993, the team entered a decade long period of utter confusion as it was a regular participant in the lottery. In retrospect, it is obvious that the Cs blew opportunities to accelerate their necessary rebuilding project in the final years of the Big Three, not to mention in the incoherent years under Dave Gavitt, M.L. Carr and Rick Pitino. Until Wyc Grousbeck and Danny Ainge came along in 2003 the management of the team was completely lacking in vision.

Those are the two extremes of how to rebuild as a team loses its genuine contender status. And they are directly relevant to Danny Ainge and the Boston Celtics , circa February 2010.

The reason is clear: it is now obvious that the Boston Celtics will not win the 2010 NBA title. And their chances of winning the 2011 NBA title, as presently constituted, are even more remote. In other words, the team is no longer a genuine contender.

I would re-tool now and take the chance that Doc is as good a coach as I believe and can mold a younger group quickly to contend, play a synergistic brand of ball, and be well positioned for tweaks that will provide future title runs.

Kind regards,

Tark

This is also from your 'real gm' post, bob:

There is another crucial reason for urgency. The trade deadline is very quickly approaching. The Cs currently have a whopping seven players in the final years of their deals, with a combined salary total of around $32 million. After the trade deadline the Cs will lose the ability to trade these players and most of them have little or no market value.

But for the next week the Cs will be able to find considerable interest in Ray Allen, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrine, Marquis Daniels, Eddie House, Shelden Williams and J.R. Giddens. (Bill Walker also can be included as his minimum salary is not guaranteed after this season.) Ray Allen is the big fish here. The interest has nothing to do with the players and everything to do with the expiring nature of their contracts. Two types of teams will be especially interested. Some teams, like the Knicks and the Bulls, are desperate to clear more cap space to become bigger players in the vaunted 2010 free agent market. Many other teams, like the Sixers, Golden State and Sacramento, are desperate to dump long-term deals because their finances are in disarray.

So Danny has a unique opportunity to parlay expiring contracts for players who do not figure into the team’s future and who have little market value into some quality assets. Players that might be available include Andre Iguodala, Kevin Martin and many more.

The catch is that the Cs owners have to be willing to swallow some deals that will not taste all that great, like Sam Dalembert or Eddy Curry or Corey Maggette, in order to get the Iguodalas or Anthony Randolphs or Danilo Gallinaris. (If the owners are willing to swallow hard, they may even get some other team to take Rasheed Wallace’s now ugly deal off their hands.)

Makes sense to me and I thank you for the keen insight.

All the best,

Tark