Post-game Thread: Celtics-Hawks Home

[Sam]

The Atlanta Hawks, without Horford and Korver, handily bested the Celtics by a 14-point margin, 105-91, at TD Garden. But, frankly, the game was lost during a 3:27 minute span in the second quarter, when the Hawks broke a tie and outscored the Celtics 12-0, never to be tied again. The offensive culprits? Bass (missed jumper) , Sully (missed jumper; bad pass turnover); Young (missed three), Bradley (two missed threes), Smart (foul on Teague), and Zeller (shooting foul on Milsap). No five of these six have played as many as 15 minutes as a unit all season long. In fact, no four of these six (Smart, Bradley, Sully, Zeller) have played as many as 36 minutes together, and their +/- as a group has been -16. A lot of people have been bothered when I've said in the past that just five minutes of floor time for the wrong player combination can lose a game. I rest my case, based on only three minutes.

It is no coincidence that three of only five shots taken by the Celts during those horrific three minutes were three-point attempts. They were three-point happy all night, as forty (that's 40%, as in 4-0) of their shots were attempted threes. The Hawks weren't a heck of a lot more conservative; 29% of their field goal attempts were threes. And the teams were almost equal as far as points garnered from three-pointers. But the difference was that the Hawks got more out of their two-point shots than the Celtics, as the Hawks hit 59% of their twos compared with 46% for the Celtics. Layup after layup, and jumper after jumper seemed to fall for the Atlantans.

The Hawks outran the Celtics (19-5 in fast break points) and obviously set and maintained the pace for the game. In the defensive stat categories, the Hawks outdid the Celts in steals (13-5), blocks (7-2). In the "shoot yourself in the foot" statistical categories, the Hawks committed fewer turnovers (12-17) and committed only about half as many fouls as the Celtics (12-23). You tell me which was the decidedly more aggressive team.

Both teams had very good assist/field goal percentages (65% Celtics, 64% Hawks). And the Celtics did garner more offensive rebounds (13-6), but this is hardly shocking since the Celtics missed 12 more shots than the Hawks.

In this game, it seemed that Jae Crowder came down to earth. Only three other Celtics (Zeller, Pressey and Young) played fewer than Jae' 20 minutes; and, although I didn't see the game, every time I looked , DeMarre Carroll was scoring in one way or another. To be fair, though, only 10 of Carroll's points were scored against Crowder. Perhaps I'm being unfair to my new favorite Celtic, because so much of what he does on the court is intangible that, if you can't see the game, you can't catch the little things he offers. But his 7 points were only part of the feeling I developed (mainly from Brad's substitution patterns—he held Jae out of the fourth quarter entirely) that Jae wasn't the catalyst last night that he has been in other games.

Avery Bradley led the Celtics with 17 points on 6-13 shooting, which certainly wasn't terrible. But I was really angered when, in the midst of the aforementioned 12-0 Hawks' run, he flung up two three-point clankers. One might chide me by saying, "You would have been happy if they had gone in," and that's true. But in a situation like that, I've often commented that it's nice the shot went in but that kind of decision-making does not lead to the kind of aggressiveness that's needed, especially when the momentum needs to be turned. More and more, I'm coming to believe that Avery is a very talented athlete who has made himself much more valuable by improving his shot dramatically, and he's a better-than-average defensive player; but I just don't think he has all that much of a "feel" for the game.

Games of 5-13 for Sully, 0-4 from Zeller, and 1-5 for Turner just don't cut it. For this game, the starters were -11, while the bench was -3. Turner, in particular, took a fair amount of abuse on the Game-on Thread. He did have six assists, which was nice but not impressive. He's being asked to tread a very small line, as his #1 priority is to score the ball, and his #1 priority is to distribute the ball. That's not a typo; his responsibilities are to blend those two talents as best he can. His scoring is actually less consistent than his ball distribution, but I believe it's his abilities in the lane that keep Brad giving Evan minutes that might otherwise have gong to Smart or Pressey.

It should be mentioned that Sully went for one more than his season rebound average, with nine. If there's one phase of his game that I believe is irrefutably established as high-impact, I believe it's rebounding. He's good under both boards. If only he could manipulate his body defensively the way he does to corral rebounds, the world could be his oyster.

Pressey wasn't bad in 11 minutes (3-4, including 1-1 from the arc, and a couple of assists), but most of those minutes were in garbage time. Smart and Young suffered from the same malady, each taking 6 of his 7 shots from three-point land. Smart had 6 (two threes), and Young had 5 (a three and a two). (See what I mean about Brad's leaning toward a guy who's offense is more oriented toward the basket?)

Kelly had 12, Thornton 10 and Bass 8, but I hardly remember any of them being in the game. Those may have been the quietest 30 points that have been scored by Celtics for a while.

Anyway, I never saw a minute of the action, but I do believe it's possible to deduce a lot from a combination of the box score and the Game-on Thread.

Go Celtics!

Sam

[bobheckler]

I feel like I'm starting to turn against Turner, a bit. I don't doubt he is getting into the paint but he is not finishing. It's like he's 6'7" going on 6'2". When you're 6'7" and in the paint, you'really expected to score. He doesn't or, at least, hasn't in a while. He had 5 assists and only 1 turnover in the first quarter (that would be our only good quarter) but was 0-2 or 3. In the 2nd quarter he added 2 more turnovers and that's it.

Bradley may have chucked up a few ill advised shots but he was the only offensively oriented starter out there. Sully did some too, although his first shot was a 3, but Millsap was holding his own.

I didn't see the game either, but I was amazed at how many blocked shots they got. Neither Antic nor Millsap are known to be good shot-blockers or intimidators.


bob


.

[kdp59]

I watched the game.

and Atlanta's defense was SMOTHERING all game long.

hopefully the Celtic's staff will keep showing video form this game to our players, as to how to play high level NBA defense for a whole game.

of course it's also the reason Atlanta is tops in the east right now also.

[sinus007]

Hi,
I thought that Celtics defense was getting better, based on the last 2-3 games. Not yesterday.
Stevens took 2 timeouts (my interpretation) in the first half just to remind his players about playing defense. First reminder was very effective, the second one - so-so; after that - almost a free fall.

AK

[beat]

Sinus

overall we played about 14-16 minutes of "good" basketball, before the wheels came off. Atlanta did make some tough shots, their first 5 threes were made by 5 different players, and NONE named Korver, as he sat this game out. I do recall one well contested trey but it went in regardless, that happens BUT Atlanta got loose for way to many easy shots. Another time we had 4 guys back near or in the paint before the ball even passed half court and a guy cuts straight down the lane with the ball for a layup. Geesh at least put him on his kister.

I'm actually surprised we stayed as close as we did. They overplayed us out front and we didn't react very well. The play to close out the half was a prime example. Instead of us holding it for the final shot, the Hawks put some pressure on the ball, played the outlet pass and got a dunk with a tick left on the clock. Lots to clean up after this game.

beat

[gyso]

Atlanta is the top team in the Eastern Conference and currently one of the hottest in the league.  We are 3rd from the worst, record-wise.  Even with two of their rotation players sitting out, they have a thing called continuity going for them, for us, not so much.

There is a reason that certain player combinations have not played many minutes together.  We just traded away two of our biggest minute eaters and substituted various other very green players into the rotation.  One of our starters last night comes from the bench of another team, another was from our bench.  We had 8 players that played over 20 minutes each.  Our starting center, considered by many to be only a "good backup", played just a little over 16 minutes.  Sully was our biggest minute player, so he must have spent some time as our "5".

Since the 1st of the year, we have played two backs to backs, with the rest of the games played with a single off day between.  That doesn't allow a lot of time for practice.  When a combination on the floor isn't working out, Brad is left with "plug and play", which doesn't always work, as the game last night proves out.  Other times this season it has worked to our advantage, but more often than not, we will get poor results.

In the next week, we get two games spaced out with two days off between, then back to back, one day off, back to back, one day off, etc. right up to the all star break.  That doesn't allow much time for Brad to find combinations that work well together, so he is left to see how things play out during games.

Anyway, I expect more of this for a while before there is less of this.

gyso

[Sam]

gyso,

And single days off between games don't necessarily mean practice opportunities because of travel and the need for rest between games. Usually, if there's just one day off between games, "practice" involves just a walkthrough in preparation for the coming game. There's not a lot of general learning dispensed or chemistry attained.

I don't know whether you say my question elsewhere. Can a team trade away a #1 pick two years in a row if at least one of them was acquired by trade?

Thanks,

Sam

[gyso]

Sam,

That was my point, one day off between games doesn't allow much time for Brad to find combinations that work well together, so he is left to see how things play out during games.  

In other words, no time for actual practice, they are left to figure it out during games.

I didn't see the question.  Here is the bit about trading first round picks:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

It is a very large bit.  I shudder at the thought of trying to grok it.

gyso

[dboss]

I saw the game.  I have been watching a lot of Atlanta Hawks games as of late.

The Hawks have a system in place and a great coach.  There are no superstars on that team.  They have some good players but i would bet that if any players make the Allstar team they will be selected by their coach.

I read an ESPN article where Stevens is praising the Hawks team and talking about how no one can stay in front of Teague.  That was obvious last night.

It was also obvious that Stevens cannot coach.  If you are going up against a player with that type of quickness you must bring help.  I saw no help from the Celtics.  I saw no adjustments.  

Now that the team has been gutted, we can always say that they are just  not talented enough to win.  

Other observations:

Even Turner should not be starting at point guard.  He is a horrible decision maker.  Marcus Smart needs to be the starting point guard.   He is a better defender than Turner and does not try to force things

Zeller has not looked very good since Rondo left.  he is struggling at both ends and has lost his confidence.  

Avery Bradley is the only guy that is playing consistently right now.  Through 8 games in january he is averaing 16.4 PPG and shooting at a 44% clip from behind the arc.

Jared Sullinger is not a realiable 3 point shooter.  Through 8 games in january his percentage is .185%.  He is a good rebounder but not a great rebounder and his defensive rotations do not exist.  Why does coach Stevens allow him to fire away from behind the arch?

KO is 2nd in the league in fouls committed.  He cannot play defense so he has turned into a hatchet man.  He is a pathetic defender.  I thought he was improving a while back but he has not.  He is horrible.

Marcus Smart seems to improve with each game.  Since this team is at the bottom of the tank, I would start Marcus right now.  No need to wait Brad.

Bass and Thornton are just playing out the string before they head out of town for good.

Young may become a good player in 3 years or so.  Right now he is physically weak.  

Guys better be careful not to play well else they will be traded for an 8th grader.

This is the first time in 55 years that I do not enjoy watching the Celtics.  I do not like the coach and I do not trust in Danny.  Fact is there is not one player on this team that I really like except for Avery and Marcus Smart.  So why I am still watching them if I do  not like them?  beats me!

I cannot even think of any good reason why i should continued to post about the Celtics.  Whatever I think of is just negative so it does not serve anything of value.

With that said, I am outta here!

Take care and best of luck to all the Celtics fans.

dboss

[swish]

dboss

"I cannot even think of any good reason why I should continued to post about the Celtics.  Whatever I think of is just negative so it does not serve anything of value.

With that said, I am outta here!"

  Did you quit on the Celtics in 2006-07, when the Celtics were led by a general manager and coach that could only manage a 24-58 record ?

swish

[k_j_88]

The Hawks are playing like a team on a mission. They're very laser-like in their focus and have been beating just about every opponent they face. I used to think that all the Hawks really needed was a legit go-to player. Well, their roster hasn't really changed, but their coaching has. It's very impressive to say the least. The East is up for grabs right now and they are reaching further than any other team right now.

By the way, the Celtics were 11-33 from the 3-point line. Just something to chew on while we debate Steven's coaching competency.


KJ

[dboss]

dboss

"I cannot even think of any good reason why I should continued to post about the Celtics.  Whatever I think of is just negative so it does not serve anything of value.

With that said, I am outta here!"

  Did you quit on the Celtics in 2006-07, when the Celtics were led by a general manager and coach that could only manage a 24-58 record ?

swish

Swish no I did not quit on them after that horrible record.  I have been through several rebuilding projects.

But times change.  That rebuild yielded a championship so i guess everyone should be happy about that but that rebuild was a non-sustaining exercise.

By year three there were already cracks in the foundation.    I am just tired of watching danny turn this team over every year.  It is not just about the recent trades over the past two years.  This team cannot reach a level of stability because there are too many changes every year.  

If Danny used the Spurs formula we would not be in the situation that we are in now.  He is obsessed with adding draft picks and has traded away too many good players.  I am not waiting another 3-5 years for this dysfunctional franchise to get back to winning.  The quality of basketball is not fun to watch.  I love the game of basketball more than I care to watch the Celtics.  

No one knows when or how Danny's will put humpty dumpty back together again.  All the cap clearing transactions may not make it possible to add a high end free agent.  At least during the last rebuild the team had Paul Pierce.  I just do not believe that a franchise type of player is going to want to be on this team.  I expect to see Danny screw up the draft by making too many lousy picks and I expect him to overpay for some veteran.  Players in the league do not have the same level of respect for this franchise like they used to.  And I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that any high end player wants to play for a college coach not named Coach K.

I  see no good things happening here and it is not fair to the board members to be subjected to my negativity.

In other words if you do not have something good to say don't say anything at all.  I am sure some people may think I am a band wagon fan but I submit my 55 years as evidence of being a loyal and sometimes fanatical Celtics fan.

I see no good reason to subject myself to a cycle of disappointment.

dboss

[BaronV]

[quote="dboss"]

dboss

By year three there were already cracks in the foundation.    I am just tired of watching danny turn this team over every year.  It is not just about the recent trades over the past two years.  This team cannot reach a level of stability because there are too many changes every year.  

dboss

Unfortunately, this is kind of an issue with a salary capped league. Aside from the current Spurs, who else has managed to maintain a long term standard of excellence in the NBA recently? It's kind of how the system is designed.

Step 1: You suck, and are possibly (not definitely)rewarded with a high draft pick. (We obviously didn't get one of the top picks last year, despite being horrible)
Step 2: You draft that guy. You hope he turns out to be both good and healthy. (You could draft Darko or Oden)
Step 3: Assuming your top draft choice is actually any good, your team sucks less, especially if you did a tank by design the previous year and freed up cap space to sign complimentary players in the off season.
Step 4: Because your team does better, you don't get a high pick again in subsequent years. If you are near the cap, or have old expensive contracts on the books, you can't surround your new star with the right cast before his rookie contract runs out. Or you trade away your future picks to get the right guys now.
Step 5: You have to pay your drafted star a ton of money, or he leaves. Or maybe you trade him for future picks, and start your rebuild again. If you pay him a ton of money, you have to be very careful not to get in a situation where you can't afford to hire the depth you need to win, especially if your star gets hurt.
Step 6: As your star gets older, you have to choose whether to keep him around until he retires with the team, which is popular with the fans but can set you up for long-term issues, or trade him for picks or prospects and start again.

And the whole draft approach doesn't really seem to work anyway. OKC has built through the draft since they got Durant, but they still haven't won, though they've been good. Cleveland seems to have gotten every #1 pick in the last decade and they still suck. Philly has picked high in several consecutive drafts and they really suck.

On the flip side, you have the 'big three' model. Get several star players on the same team, and try and make a run in the few years they have together. Exciting while it lasts, but doesn't really build fan loyalty, and can lead to teams with limited depth that can't handle injuries well. And as Cleveland has shown so far this year, the three stars actually need to be able to play together.

Unless the expected rise in the salary cap in 2016 helps with this, I wonder if we'll see more teams put together like the Hawks we saw last night, which seems built in a manner similar to the Pats... no real star player, but lots of above average players who don't make a lot of mistakes, creating depth and allowing their 2nd team to outplay their opponents. The current crop of Celtics, with a few additions, could become this with proper coaching. Not sure if this type of team can beat a superstar led team in a playoff series today, but would be interesting to see.

One reason I think the above scenario may play out more is that fans, as we saw from dboss's comments, get fed up with the 'we're great, we suck, we're ok, we're great, we suck' cycle that this causes. Do fans in LA, Boston, New York, Philly, etc., want to see their team put garbage on the floor intentionally for a few years in the hope of getting a good draft pick? That has to cost the teams money in the long run, especially if other teams in that city are doing well at the same time, and it diminishes the league overall. If you are an Atlanta fan, do you even watch when your team plays Philly and Boston back to back, rests half the starters, and still blows them out? This is one reason I like the 'draft wheel' system that was discussed last year... by not having to blow up your team to have a shot at a great player in the draft, its more likely that every team would be more competitive, making every game fun to watch.

Anyway, kind of a rant, but I think this system is not doing good things for the league overall.

-V

[dbrown4]

dboss,

Another sad thing is even if Danny clears all this cap space and let's say he goes after a LeBron and he starts the injury parade to ride out his NBA career and we're left with $20M+ per year that won't come off the books for the length of the contract and be a zero producing asset. Then we're left worse off than the Len Bias situation. It's all still a BIG crapshoot. Danny's just going down one of the many NBA rabbit holes by accumulating draft picks and exemptions.

We were very fortunate that KG, PP and RA bought into the sales pitch DA offered them. They were in the twilights of their respective careers and DA said this is it. Play like a championship team. And they bought into it the best they could. We got one championship and almost a second over the span.

There are no guarantees in this league.

db

As CLE is now finding out, this Big 3 thing doesn't always work out.

[beat]

I don't give a damn how bad things are to some people, that's there opinion but I ain't going anywhere....

I like Stevens and hope Ainge can push the right buttons but it takes 2 teams to deal (or more)

beat

[Sam]

Dboss,

If anyone were even to hint that you're a bandwagon fan, feel free to send him or her to me. That would be the biggest load of crap since Hitler.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I posted at the beginning of this season that I was considering leaving the board because there are so many other things I wanted to do and I'll be 78 soon. Then I watched opening night unfold, and the familiar tingle returned, and I reenlisted for at least another season.

If the tingle has disappeared for you, please rest assured that your contributions to this board over the years (and to BDC earlier) have been extremely valued. I still remember how hard you worked to guide me through Excel during my stat-posting period. And, in addition to your support of the board, you've always been a good friend.

It's true that the tingles haven't come any faster than the glimmers this season. But, in a weird kind of way, that fact makes me cling more tightly to those that become available. (Right now, the closest thing to a glimmer for me is Crowder.) The fascination of watching a team put together certainly doesn't hold as much appeal for me as it did in the past, but it's still there. It's sort of like I tell my friends: I want to live forever, because I want to find out how the whole damn thing comes out. Same with the Celtics.

I've always been a believer in the fact that we all have to pay dues for most of the good stuff that happens in our lives. Sometimes we pay the dues in advance; sometimes after the fact. The fact that you and I experienced the very best in basketball so early in our lives has always meant, to me, that I owe an awful lot to someone. I'm not a particularly religious person; so, in my case, I figure I owe it to the team that made my Celtics inspirations possible. I guess that, if I lost all interest just when the team needs fan support the most, I would not be paying my retro-dues to Red, Cooz, Russ, Sam, John, Satch, Rams, KC, Bails, Nellie, Siggy, and all the guys who provided you and me with an unparalleled—absolutely UNPARALLELED—ride so early in our respective lives.

We all walk to our respective beats, and yours must be respected. I fervently wish you'd stay, even if you wanted to become a Hawks fan. I will miss you that much if you leave. But, if you really choose to go in other directions, you have my best wishes (and I'm sure those of the entire board) for a healthy, happy and productive future and our sincere thanks for all you have contributed.

If you leave, I hope you'll drop in to say hi occasionally and let us know how you're doing. And, of course, the door is always wide open for your return. I'll buy the confetti!

All the best,

Sam

[BaronV]

On the issue of stability, if the league is going to become one where players, including stars, move around a fair amount, as seems to be happening now, one way to generate stability is in the front office and coaching staff. In that regard, the Cs have done much better than a lot of teams. Danny has been in his job for a long time, and managed us through one worst to first cycle. Doc was here for the entirety of the last run, and now BS has been hired to a long term deal to put his stamp on the team. It becomes easier to continue to root for the jerseys rather than the players when the team has a clear plan and a system in place that the fans can relate to. Kind of like college in that regard.

-V

[bobheckler]

A sad day, for sure.  I hope you step back from the edge and reconsider, dboss.  This isn't an opium den, where everybody dreams of a wonderful life even when it is not, it is a sports board.  More specifically, it is the sports board of a team that is in a dramatic state of flux  (to say the least!) and is struggling to find itself.  Not surprisingly, there is a wide range of optimism vs pessimism.  International wasn't happy because he felt foreign players weren't getting their due, not from Danny and not from this board.  I encouraged him, rather than just folding up his tent and disappearing into the night, to stay and persuade us otherwise.  I saw he has initiated some threads recently.  They weren't happy "everything is wonderful on Celtic Planet" threads, quite the opposite, but they were well-presented and cogent.  Works for me.  Mrkleen has been waging a one-man Battle of the Alamo on behalf of Jeff Green for years.  His personal life has reduced his posting levels but he hasn't bailed, not even after Green got traded.

I have pointed out, repeatedly, that we are only 1 1/2 years into a 3-5 year rebuild.   If you're not happy it's safe to say, based upon the positively frenetic trading pace this year, that Danny isn't either.  In fact, Danny came right out and said thst in one of the videos I posted.  Watching sausage being made is never pretty.

I liked Paul Pierce, I liked Big Al  (always hoping his defense would catch up with his offense, which it never has) but that's about all I really liked about that team.  I didn't like Raef,  I didn't like 'Toine, I didn't see Gomes as being a high quality player (although he did well with his limitations), I hated Telfair and my eyes spun like a Vegas slot machine at the mention of Gerald Green.  Doc, if you remember, had a very caustic relationship with Pierce in the beginning and our record sucked worse than it does now.  We suffered through a franchise worst 18-game losing streak, and that was with a coach who had won COY.  West grew on me but that's about it:  Pierce, Jefferson and OK with West.  And then 'poof' they were all gone and the sun broke through the 22 years of clouds.

Present your misgivings congenially, never with ad hominem attacks, and it's all good.  This is a tough stretch for Celtic fans, staying positive isn't for the faint of heart.  Danny has made some moves that has all of us scratching our heads (ok, maybe not kdp, he already has visions of draft picks and massive cap space dancing in his head) but wasn't that the way we were when Danny traded 'Toine for Raef?  Jiri who?  And then years, not months or a single year, later 'poof'.

As the immortal Yogi Berra said "it ain't over until it's over" and nothing is over until I am dead and can't keep fighting anymore.  It'd be nice to see you in our corner.  Either way, best of everything.  Someday there will be a reason for me to be in the Atlanta area and I will try to look you up.


bob



.

[mrkleen09]

I feel your pain D. I start every game on the edge of my seat, like I did in the 80s and when KG got to town. As the game goes on, I slowly slide back - and by half time, my feet are usually up and my attention is divided with a bunch of other things. This isnt a very good team, as side for Sullinger, Smart, AB and James Young - I dont see any of these guys being her long term. I simply cannot live and die with every play and game like I used to.

BUT, I worry more about the name on the front of the shirt than the back. This is my hometown team, they represent my city and I have been watching them for more than 40 years. I grew up perpetually wearing a green t-shirt...spent my high school days watching Bird, McHale and Parish as I sold ice cream in the second balcony of the Garden.

The Celtics are my family - and I dont turn my back on family ever, particularly when they are down. They have given me so much joy over the years. The least I can do is give them my support, particularly when they need it the most.

Do what you need to do, but you should know we will leave the light on for you.

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