Sully may be done

The Boston Celtics announced today that, following further medical evaluation at the New England Baptist Hospital, it was determined that forward Jared Sullinger has sustained a left metatarsal stress fracture and will be out for the remainder of the 2014-15 regular season. NBA.com


I love Sully but it is possible that the weight he can't help but play at is incompatible with his staying healthy and on the court.  I sure hope not.


bob


.

Unfortunately, one of the reasons he fell to us in the draft has come back to visit.

As low compassion and all business as it sounds, this also seriously hurts his trade value, which is an even bigger problem.  I'm getting very happy we kept Bass around; fears and events surrounding Sully and Kelly are probably a big factor in that.

I hope Sullinger can do what's needed to get himself back on the court next year, and have some staying power.

The way he plays reminds me of Paul Silas, so I wish somebody would tell him what Silas did when he found out Red had traded for him. He immediately lost 30 pounds, worked out like crazy, and turned his career around, turned himself into a champion.

Sully can do it. He's still ridiculously young, and he's very smart. He's one of those guys who'll never stop working to get better. I fully expect he'll come back next season 30 pounds lighter and chomping at the bit.

The worse part of this is the leadership vacuum he leaves. He wasn't a vocal leader, but he had a quiet determination and mental toughness that's going to be hard to replace.

The most challenging part of this season has just begun. One bright spot: they'll be a much faster team.

And they'll get better draft picks with Sully gone. I am not in favor of tanking, but this will not be our championship season so might as well benefit from the adversity of Sully's injury.

worcester wrote:And they'll get better draft picks with Sully gone. I am not in favor of tanking, but this will not be our championship season so might as well benefit from the adversity of Sully's injury.

I'm for tanking, this team would gain little by making the playoffs and getting bounced early.

I'm opposed to tanking, in general. If I want the Celtics to emulate someone Sam Hinkie would not be at or near the top of the list.

At this point, even if we do tank, we're going to get a mid-lottery pick. Four teams have records so much worse than ours there is no chance of catching them. Sacto could be caught (as far as falling goes) but Orlando is 3 1/2 games behind us. So, realistically, we're looking at 6th or 7th, and that's assuming the pingpong balls bounce our way (which they never do).

In the case of this team, I could see the adversity overcoming the loss of Sully etc and still making the playoffs as providing character building value regardless of what happens in the playoffs. You aren't going to win a championship without playoff experience and the only way to get that is by making the playoffs. Even if we gut the team for some stars with playoff experience don't you want the bench players who are left to have playoff experience too?


bob


.

Factual note: The Celts won a championship in 2008 with no playoff experience - except for Paul, KG, and Ray. I know, big exceptions.

Why worry about the playoff experience for the players on this years team? Who knows which players on this years roster will still be with the team when the Celtics are once again legitimate contenders?

swish

Excellent point Swish. Most of these guys simply need game experience in Brad's system, particularly Bass, Thomas, Zeller, Kelly O., Bradley, Crowder, Marcus Smart, and James Young. Besides Sully, that's who I can imaging being on the 2015-16 roster, and I'm not too sure about Kelly or Bass.

I doubt Jerebko, Datome, Turner,Pressey, or Randolph will make the cut, and with some luck we'll be done with Wallace too.

worcester wrote:Factual note: The Celts won a championship in 2008 with no playoff experience - except for Paul, KG, and Ray. I know, big exceptions.

W -

Valid point. I also like the point made by Swish, above.

My personal opinion is and always has been that you can place a numerical value on playoff experience.  0.  That's zero.

It doesn't matter, since this is opinion, but I'll quote a New England based guy who might have experience in this area...

According to everyone's favorite Hoodie...

"I think it’ll be the team that plays the best. I don’t think it’s about how many All-Pros or how many playoff games or anything," Belichick said when asked about the experience factor Friday, according to Pro Football Talk. "I don’t think that has anything to do with it. I’ve been on plenty of teams that didn’t have any experience and won. We can go through the league and find just as many examples of that. So, zero."

As I often like to do, I'll suggest we all think back to our own playing/coaching days, whatever sport, high school, college, whatever level.  Weren't you ever on a team in a playoff or championship game with no experience, or didn't you face one?  Wasn't there ever a time the winner had no playoff experience? Do you remember anything different about the game, your preparation, or the difference with any other game after the tip-off, first pitch, kickoff?  Of course not.

Among the biggest fallacies in sports at any level is that playoff experience matters.  That and 'I don't know how the steroids got into my blood-stream.'

Now, in my opinion, again, (oh Dear God, here comes NYCelt's opinion again...please make it stop) there may be positives and negatives associated with our making the playoffs apart from experience.  The biggest positive in making the playoffs, may be the ability to attract a free agent or two.  It might make us look a little more appealing, and a little further along the road to being competitive.  The downside?  Selecting lower in the draft.  It depends where you think the best shot is; a promising but NBA-untested new young player, or whatever is in the free agent pool in a given year.

I don't like the idea of tanking, so I'm not suggesting that.  Furthermore, I find it questionable and rare that a professional athlete, coach, or owner with the least bit of competitiveness in their blood could willingly do it.  Looking at free agency this year, however, and the number of talented bigs and guards that might realistically be obtainable by us in the draft this year, I'd rather finish out of the playoffs and draft higher.  That may seem somehow incongruent with disliking the thought of tanking, but I just can't see the value in a first round pounding and exit.  A quick butt-kicking could possibly turn a free agent away too, after all.

One other argument in favor of making it might be the extra coin for Wyc and company.

So on this rare occasion that I'm with The Hoodie (OK, the guy really is one of the best...ever) I'll go with playoff experience is a big fat zero.  No need to go there in order to simply accomplish nothing.

My .02.

This probably needs a different thread...

Regards

In 1965 i won the New England high school wrestling championship at 147 lbs., upsetting a guy with 32 straight wins over 2-3 seasons. I was too young and dumb to know better. The 2015-16 Celts could be the same.

Maybe you are right, but I do think that having a young coach who is just getting his feet wet in the NBA is not a great help. Also, Bass and Wallace are the only veteran's on the team and really, Bass is the only true "Celtic", even though Stevens gives Wallace alot of pats on the back. To me it is hard to "train" young players to be pro's . What this all means in the long run is possibly nothing, but,,to me to have these guys make any kind of a run at the playoffs they need some guidance. Let's suit up Leon and Scal, along with Walter maybe they could whip these kids into shape.

Rosalie

worcester wrote:In 1965 i won the New England high school wrestling championship at 147 lbs., upsetting a guy with 32 straight wins over 2-3 seasons. I was too young and dumb to know better. The 2015-16 Celts could be the same.

W -

I'm impressed.

Well, not only by the championship, which is very impressive, but the 147lbs. I remember 147 lbs. Long time ago.

Rosalie,

I'm with you on sending in the old vets because I still, love, Waltah! I was happy when he returned as a coach.

Regards

My normal high school weight was 165 then, and I had to work real hard to make weight. That was eons ago. Now I bounce between 190 and 200. Too many hours indoors.

worcester wrote:In 1965 i won the New England high school wrestling championship at 147 lbs., upsetting a guy with 32 straight wins over 2-3 seasons. I was too young and dumb to know better. The 2015-16 Celts could be the same.

Did you wrestle Brian Williams cause I think I heard him say he won.

beat

Yes, he was the guy with 32 wins. This was just after his tour in Vietnam as a Green Beret.

NYCelt.....It is funny, two summers ago I had to bring my computer to be repaired right up the street here in Waltham. I told the guy I had to have it back for the beginning of the season! He laughed, called me in three days and told me to come and get it. When I went in, we were talking and he told me that Walter had dropped his computer off there to be fixed and his wife picked it up

I told my son, and then Sam and Bob, to watch, Walter would be working for the Celtics before long. Little did I know, he already was, in community relations. When Brad came, he hired him on as a coach. Recently the Celtics hired Leon Powe, a move I love, in the same position. Having guys like this around can only help Brad in the future if he really wants to listen.

There is only one way here, The Celtics Way, so you need guys who will help forward the message. Stick around, the next really big hire next season will be Paul Pi
erce.

Rosalie

Swish and NYCelt,

Aside from any other considerations, one reason to get playoff experience for this team is that they are unlikely to get that far without necessarily developing a winning mentality.  And a winning mentality can remain with a team regardless of how many generations of players pass through its portals.  It's very unlikely that the entire roster would suddenly depart; and those who are carried over to various iterations of the team encourage (by example) newcomers to embrace the winning spirit.  Heck, I know of a team that maintained an extraordinary winning mentality for well over a decade despite the fact that only one player was there for all of those years.  People come and go, but traditions and cultures can be long-lasting.  But first, they have to be established—and the sooner the better.

Sam

Sam

I'm partial to high draft picks. Just making the playoffs with a sub 500 record does nothing for me. I would much rather that the Celtics do their very best but come up short in the win column. But like they say - To each his own.

swish

Sam and Swish,

I've got to agree with the last post from Swish; on the topics of skipping the playoffs, high draft picks and, of course, to each their own thought.

It makes me wonder what Celtic management's "own" is.  Other than Ainge, I don't recall reading any opinions on the topic.  I'm sure the only answer is "we're trying to win every game," and that's as it should be.

As I mentioned, I don't at all believe there's any value in playoff experience.  What's more, I think getting punked early on, does more to foster a losing attitude.  The feeling after losing a championship game, is very much like finishing last.  The feeling from getting beat early on, is that you didn't belong in the first place.

That's my thought, however, and apparently Ainge's isn't far off.  It makes me wonder what's on the minds of Stevens, Wyk and others.  

Regards

My guess is that, if the Celtics were to make the playoffs, they would be thinking much more about winning than losing.  I call that a winning mentality, regardless of how they might fare in the playoffs.

Just making the playoffs, after the discontinuities and challenges of this season, would be a huge coup that would represent a win of sorts just to be on the playoff stage.  Becoming disconsolate when losing in the playoffs, especially if the team had been installed as underdogs, is for fans, not for players.  I've had a smattering of experience with pro basketball players; and, in that experience, losing makes them want to win in the future all the more.  I call that a winning mentality.

Even if they were to lose early in the playoffs, I'm betting the crowd at Boston Garden would burst their collective larynx just at the prospect of rooting for this team in the playoffs after the struggles of this season.  Just as virtually every player who joins the Celtics comments on how great the Boston crowd is, I believe the players couldn't help but become more determined, more encouraged by the experience, and hugely rewarded by the support of the crowd for their efforts in making the playoffs.  I call that a winning mentality.

Moreover, who can say what this team will be like come playoff time?  Perhaps it's just the winning mentality in me, but there is always the possibility that they would experience some actual (horrors, dare I mention the word?) winning in the playoffs.  Assuming they would lose badly is already a losing mentality reserved pretty much for fans.  Does not compute in my part of the basketball world.  I care about a winning mentality.

I can understand that the draft represents an annual form of entertainment for many people.  They get to handicap the players, conjecture about drafting strategies, and engage in an activity tantamount to gambling without spending a cent.  And there's absolutely nothing wrong with any of it.  To each his/her own.

Sam

The 02 Celtics made it to the ECF in a weak Eastern conference and Danny knew going forward that was still a flawed team that had to make alot of changes to really contend. Well this years team is alot worse than that team, though we have some good young chips. Playoff run means nothing to me as acquiring real personnel to compete is key and this team has too many flaws even though they play hard and get the most of their limited ability.

We can have a winning mentality and still play young (James Young) players who are not ready for prime time.

cowens/oldschool wrote:The 02 Celtics made it to the ECF in a weak Eastern conference and Danny knew going forward that was still a flawed team that had to make alot of changes to really contend. Well this years team is alot worse than that team, though we have some good young chips. Playoff run means nothing to me as acquiring real personnel to compete is key and this team has too many flaws even though they play hard and get the most of their limited ability.

cow,

The 01-02 Celtics, which was the first year they made the EC Finals, had Pierce and 'Toine as mainstays.  Of those two, I'll credit Pierce and not Walker.  Other than them who did we have?  Blount, Battie. Potapenko and Vin Baker?  That's better?  More, yes, but better?  The only one on that list that deserves kudos is Potapenko.  Who would you rather have, Sully or Vitaly?  Eric Williams, Kedrick Brown and McCarty.  You think that Tony Delk and Kenny Anderson did better in the playoffs than Bradley, Smart and Thomas would do?  

The next year Kenny Anderson was gone, replaced with JR Bremer.  We got swept by NJ 0-4 in the EC Finals.  Take the back court roster from 01-02 and replace Anderson with Bremer.  You think that's a better back court than what we have now?

I know there are people on this board who disagree with me (why should you all be different than most of the rest of the people in my life?) but I think nothing, nothing, is better than winning.  Sucking, so you can be better later, means you suck.  Does this roster need upgrades?  Absolutely, just like the 02-03 roster did, but winning is its own reward and losing today in the hope you can be better later is defeatism.  Remember Reggie Lewis?  Remember Len Bias?  The future is always now because Murphy's Law says that it probably won't be what you think/expect/hope it will be.  

Win now and the chances of signing a big-time free agent in the off-season goes up.  Win now and the chances of another team being interested in one of the "nice young pieces" you talk about goes up.  Win now and the pieces that are left, after trading/waiving/cutting for the quality players you want, will be better.  Winning makes whatever sales job Danny and Brad have to make to players, both current and prospective, that much easier because it won't just be "blue sky" they're pitching.  Winning cures a multitude of ills, from morale to roster holes.  Winning makes me want to win more.  Losing makes me want to punch Evan Turner.  I might want to do that even if we're winning but losing definitely will.

btw, Danny was hired after the 0-4 rout in '03. We proceeded to suck 3 of the next 4 years as Danny overhauled the roster, shuttling players in and out. And then...

If we're going for the "let's suck so we can get a good draft pick" then let's not bash the team and the coaches because they're not winning, not getting better, not becoming competitive. If we're going for the "let's suck so we can get a good draft pick" then let's not bash Danny if the draft pick doesn't pan out. Maybe he knows something about the crapshoot which is the NBA draft and that's why he wants picks as trade bait and not for our roster.


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:The 02 Celtics made it to the ECF in a weak Eastern conference and Danny knew going forward that was still a flawed team that had to make alot of changes to really contend. Well this years team is alot worse than that team, though we have some good young chips. Playoff run means nothing to me as acquiring real personnel to compete is key and this team has too many flaws even though they play hard and get the most of their limited ability.

cow,

The 01-02 Celtics, which was the first year they made the EC Finals, had Pierce and 'Toine as mainstays.  Of those two, I'll credit Pierce and not Walker.  Other than them who did we have?  Blount, Battie. Potapenko and Vin Baker?  That's better?  More, yes, but better?  The only one on that list that deserves kudos is Potapenko.  Who would you rather have, Sully or Vitaly?  Eric Williams, Kedrick Brown and McCarty.  You think that Tony Delk and Kenny Anderson did better in the playoffs than Bradley, Smart and Thomas would do?  

The next year Kenny Anderson was gone, replaced with JR Bremer.  We got swept by NJ 0-4 in the EC Finals.  Take the back court roster from 01-02 and replace Anderson with Bremer.  You think that's a better back court than what we have now?

I know there are people on this board who disagree with me (why should you all be different than most of the rest of the people in my life?) but I think nothing, nothing, is better than winning.  Sucking, so you can be better later, means you suck.  Does this roster need upgrades?  Absolutely, just like the 02-03 roster did, but winning is its own reward and losing today in the hope you can be better later is defeatism.  Remember Reggie Lewis?  Remember Len Bias?  The future is always now because Murphy's Law says that it probably won't be what you think/expect/hope it will be.  

Win now and the chances of signing a big-time free agent in the off-season goes up.  Win now and the chances of another team being interested in one of the "nice young pieces" you talk about goes up.  Win now and the pieces that are left, after trading/waiving/cutting for the quality players you want, will be better.  Winning makes whatever sales job Danny and Brad have to make to players, both current and prospective, that much easier because it won't just be "blue sky" they're pitching.  Winning cures a multitude of ills, from morale to roster holes.  Winning makes me want to win more.  Losing makes me want to punch Evan Turner.  I might want to do that even if we're winning but losing definitely will.

btw, Danny was hired after the 0-4 rout in '03.  We proceeded to suck 3 of the next 4 years as Danny overhauled the roster, shuttling players in and out.  And then...

If we're going for the "let's suck so we can get a good draft pick" then let's not bash the team and the coaches because they're not winning, not getting better, not becoming competitive.  If we're going for the "let's suck so we can get a good draft pick" then let's not bash Danny if the draft pick doesn't pan out.  Maybe he knows something about the crapshoot which is the NBA draft and that's why he wants picks as trade bait and not for our roster.


bob


.

bob Your below comment.

"Maybe he knows something about the crapshoot which is the NBA draft and that's why he wants picks as trade bait and not for our roster."

And the higher the draft pick, the greater the value of the pick in a trade. As to the draft being a crap shoot -- Which chip would you prefer to hold when trying to make a trade ? -- A number 5, 15, or 25 pick.

swish