so what's the best scenario if we don't get a star?

M. Gasol- stays in Memphis
D. Jordan- LA or Houston
K. Love stay in Cleveland or bolts for LA
L. Aldridge Portland or SA
G. Monroe to NY.

what would still be a good Off-season that would improve the team?

here's my thoughts today.

Celtics trade #16, #28 and 2016 second round pick
To
Indiana for #11 pick
Draft:
#11- SG- Devin Booker (Ken)
#33- C/PF- Rakeem Christmas (Syr)
#45 – C- M. Jaiteh ( Int)- draft and stash.


Free Agents:
C- K. Koufas (Mem)- 4yr/ $34M, $8M first year salary.
SF- C. Crowder (RFA)- 4yr/ $22M, $4.5M first year salary.
PF- J. Jerebko (Bos)- 2yr/ $9M, $4.5M first year salary.

Roster: ( Min player last year)
T. Zeller (1731)
K. Koufas (1348)
R. Christmas (Rookie)- est. 400 min
J. Sullinger (1566)
K. Olynyk (1423)
J. Jerebko (1230)
C. Crowder (1647)
G. Wallace (286)
E. Turner (2260)
A. Bradley (2428)
D. Booker (Rookie)- est. 1100 min
J. Young (332)
M. Smart (1808)
I. Thomas (1726)
P. Pressey (600)

At about $62M in salary’s with this roster or under the cap by about $5M.


how about some other ideas?

Figuring that Crowder (and maybe Jerebko) is resigned and that none of the current younger guys are traded

.........A starting center or at least a center who does not give away the lane when in the game and limits Sullinger
        and Olynyk to less than eight combined minutes at the center position.

.........At least one real solid rookie.  Trade up to get him in the top 8.  Too many draft picks not to use some this    
        summer (and, next summer as well).

.........Two young vets who come by trade or free agency.  Koufos is a good example.  One of the two should be a  
        wing shooter especially if Young does not show some very marked improvement by training camp.

.........Take a gamble somewhere in the draft on a big man who might not already be considered one of the 4 best
         even if he must be stashed in Europe for a year.

.........A power forward or a center who can really bang around the boards to set a 'tone' in the lane.  

I realize that some of these needs may actually be filled by the same guy but it is my list of top level needs.

All in all I think that the Cs need three solid additions to the top 9 man rotation for next season considering that Zeller, Sullinger, Olynyk, Crowder, Bradley, Smart and Thomas will be solid parts (if not traded) of the nine man rotation.  Turner, Jerebko, Pressey would be the likely top twelve.  I also would not mind having Brandon Bass back if he cannot get a better deal somewhere else and especially if either Sullinger or Olynyk get traded.

Should be a very interesting summer.  Go Celtics!!!

Turning a team into a legitimate contender is a monumental task. Since the shot clock introduction there will have been 61 champs crowned.  Of those 61, 53 had at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players on the roster , 7 had I ALL LEAGUE player on the roster , 1 did not have any ALL LEAGUE players on the roster.  Every year a few teams will manage to put together a roster with at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players. And they are the teams that are the serious contenders. The big question as I see it is how long it is going to take Danny to collect the chips , ( via trades , free agency , or the draft ) to replicate his moves of 2007-08 when he added ALL LEAGUE players Allen and Garnett to existing roster ALL LEAGUER  Pierce . Should be a fascinating process to follow over the future months or more likely years. I'll be watching to see how your predictions turn out.

swish

Just nail the draft picks, solid singles or doubles are fine.

16 PF/C Bobby Portis
28 PG Terry Rozier
33 C Dakari Johnson/Robert Upshaw

Starting lineup:
Rozier
Smart
Crowder
Portis
Zeller

Major defensive upgrade at 3 and 4, and Rozier actually is very close to Bradley defensively.
Offense flows better with a hyper-quick point guard in Rozier, who plays a bit like IT4 in Avery Bradley's body, which is going to really stand out in the more spacious NBA.

The best bench in the NBA gets even better with Bradley added to it, and with Sully playing for a contract.
And the starting lineup improves slightly.

I've never been comfortable with the term "star."  Does there come a day in a player's life when he is suddenly a star but wasn't a star the day before?  Of course not.  Players develop in ability, and the make contributions to teams.  When a given player's contribution reaches a certain level, perhaps it's appropriate to call him a star.  But trade him to a different team, and perhaps he's not as valuable for reasons of poor chemistry, difficulty in getting used to the system, or whatever.

I say all this because I think players should be acquired because of the potential synergy they represent with the team rather than because they've been to two consecutive all-star games.  And players with potential for that specific team are likely to experience expedited development to what might be called star status with that team.

So, if one really believes in the star system, one answer to the question posed by this thread is, "Acquire players with the potential to be impact players on your team, and see what happens in terms of of their developmental ceiling."

Sam

swish wrote:Turning a team into a legitimate contender is a monumental task. Since the shot clock introduction there will have been 61 champs crowned.  Of those 61, 53 had at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players on the roster , 7 had I ALL LEAGUE player on the roster , 1 did not have any ALL LEAGUE players on the roster.  Every year a few teams will manage to put together a roster with at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players. And they are the teams that are the serious contenders. The big question as I see it is how long it is going to take Danny to collect the chips , ( via trades , free agency , or the draft ) to replicate his moves of 2007-08 when he added ALL LEAGUE players Allen and Garnett to existing roster ALL LEAGUER  Pierce . Should be a fascinating process to follow over the future months or more likely years. I'll be watching to see how your predictions turn out.

swish

this is exactly why I didn't want no part of the playoffs this year, I knew we obviously weren't ready and saw that sweep coming....I don't care what our record was the last 2 months....with 2 months left we had a top 6 pick, we shoulda stayed there, now everyones scrambling with pathetic ideas to get in better position for a draft pick and a year ago or so I saw a few who were saying we are so far ahead of LA in the rebuilding process. Well they're gonna get a franchise BIG to pair with Randle, this is what most wished for, how do you like me now?

swish wrote:Turning a team into a legitimate contender is a monumental task. Since the shot clock introduction there will have been 61 champs crowned.  Of those 61, 53 had at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players on the roster , 7 had I ALL LEAGUE player on the roster , 1 did not have any ALL LEAGUE players on the roster.  Every year a few teams will manage to put together a roster with at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players. And they are the teams that are the serious contenders. The big question as I see it is how long it is going to take Danny to collect the chips , ( via trades , free agency , or the draft ) to replicate his moves of 2007-08 when he added ALL LEAGUE players Allen and Garnett to existing roster ALL LEAGUER  Pierce . Should be a fascinating process to follow over the future months or more likely years. I'll be watching to see how your predictions turn out.

swish

interesting point about all-league or all-stars on championship teams.

I would note that in some cases winning begets all-stars . Just look at the FOUR "All-stars" from the Hawks this year.

besides Maybe Horford, how many would have made an all-star team if Atlanta had our record?

I say ZERO.

IN a couple years might Smart be an all-star (in the D. Johnson mold)?

I don't disagree that the model is to get one or two All-star type players and I think Ainge will try to do just that. In this thread I was just exercising my mind and attempting to see what type of roster could be put together to improve the team without that new all-star.

I think the team CAN make improvements without a star (if the "stars" don't align) and be able to contend for the Atlantic division crown next season ( gotta walk before you run , youngins') .

rambone wrote:Just nail the draft picks, solid singles or doubles are fine.

16 PF/C Bobby Portis
28 PG Terry Rozier
33 C Dakari Johnson/Robert Upshaw

Starting lineup:
Rozier
Smart
Crowder
Portis
Zeller

Major defensive upgrade at 3 and 4, and Rozier actually is very close to Bradley defensively.
Offense flows better with a hyper-quick point guard in Rozier, who plays a bit like IT4 in Avery Bradley's body, which is going to really stand out in the more spacious NBA.

The best bench in the NBA gets even better with Bradley added to it, and with Sully playing for a contract.
And the starting lineup improves slightly.

it could certainly be the way Ainge ends up going come draft day. However I don't think any likely pick at our current spots will step in as a starter his first year.

Bradley , Thomas and Smart are al better NBA players than Rozier now, so his playing time would be limited to replacing Pressey to me.

Portis , while having solid upside (especially if he as driven anything close to KG has been), but I doubt he'd play a lot over Sullinger and Olynyk at PF his rookie year.

I do understand that you feel Olynyk is fine at center with Zeller and while I also like both players and hope they stay in green next year, I feel Kelly would be much better utilized as a stretch 4. I think that's where his NBA career is best played.

so no center upgrade except maybe Upshaw or D. Johnson as the top of the second round?

KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.

And Zeller is a downright solid starting center, and is still young and getting stronger like KO. It would be nice to upgrade the position with a star, but it's not far and away our weakest position by any means.

Zeller was much better than Bass, for instance, and Sully's way too slow feet on defense are a bigger problem than Zeller's lack of shot blocking.

Portis is a smart player who plays within himself and knows his limitations, unlike Sully, and Portis has less limitations than Sully.

Portis isn't that far off from WCStein as far as defending the pick and role and defending smaller players on the perimeter. His feet are almost as quick. And that's the skill that WCS is most lauded for.

Portis would be a huge upgrade over Sully and Bass defensively, because he has a better combination of length and quickness and instincts. He's longer than either, has about the same footspeed as Bass, but has much better defensive and rebounding instincts than Bass.

And to further compare Portis to WCS, Portis is already stronger, 246 lbs vs 242. And Portis being a year and a half younger than WCS, he's going to put on more muscle over the next couple years than WCS.

If center was our worst position defensively, taking more radical or desperate measures to upgrade the position would make a lot of sense. But Bass and Sullinger are much worse defenders at the PF position than Zeller or KO are at C.

It's easy to get tricked by draft rankings and conclude that a top 10 prospect is head and shoulders better than a prospect ranked 14-16, but that isn't always the case. Portis is a better all around PF than WCS, and in a year or two he'll be a better all around center as well. Just not in the very precise role you personally prefer centers to play in.

Offense was the biggest problem for the starting lineup, but Zeller was definitely not part of that problem, and he got better every week. By the last couple months of the season, he was shooting long jumpers with extreme confidence and great results, in addition to his scoring around the rim.

Avery Bradley however was part of the problem on offense. The only thing he contributes on offense is a long jump shot, and when his shot was off the starting offense generally floundered.

Terry Rozier is a much better ball handler, is much more aggressive at attacking the rim, finishes more efficiently, and draws more fouls, where he's a great FT shooter. He is a much better passer, and is a good shooter who just needs to improve his shot selection. He has experience and has thrived playing both shooting guard and point guard.
As a shooting guard two seasons ago, he shot 35-36 from 3, but his % dipped to 30% this past season on shaky shot selection and a much higher % of off-the-dribble 3s rather than catch-and-shoot 3s.

And having a much more skilled guard like Rozer instead of Bradley in the starting lineup, it makes it easier to start Crowder, who is a big defensive upgrade over Turner.

Zeller starting at center suddenly doesn't look so bad defensively when he has four good/great defenders and rebounders alongside him, and the starting offense would also be improved. Not to mention the reduction in turnovers from having Bradley, Turner, and Bass out of the starting 5.

kdp,

I just want you to know that your line, "...if the stars don't align," was appreciated.

Sam

Here's Rozier's offensive highlights. All the things we wish Bradley could do, and their defense is very comparable

rambone wrote:KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.

And Zeller is a downright solid starting center, and is still young and getting stronger like KO. It would be nice to upgrade the position with a star, but it's not far and away our weakest position by any means.

Zeller was much better than Bass, for instance, and Sully's way too slow feet on defense are a bigger problem than Zeller's lack of shot blocking.

Portis is a smart player who plays within himself and knows his limitations, unlike Sully, and Portis has less limitations than Sully.

Portis isn't that far off from WCStein as far as defending the pick and role and defending smaller players on the perimeter. His feet are almost as quick. And that's the skill that WCS is most lauded for.

Portis would be a huge upgrade over Sully and Bass defensively, because he has a better combination of length and quickness and instincts. He's longer than either, has about the same footspeed as Bass, but has much better defensive and rebounding instincts than Bass.

And to further compare Portis to WCS, Portis is already stronger, 246 lbs vs 242. And Portis being a year and a half younger than WCS, he's going to put on more muscle over the next couple years than WCS.

If center was our worst position defensively, taking more radical or desperate measures to upgrade the position would make a lot of sense. But Bass and Sullinger are much worse defenders at the PF position than Zeller or KO are at C.

It's easy to get tricked by draft rankings and conclude that a top 10 prospect is head and shoulders better than a prospect ranked 14-16, but that isn't always the case. Portis is a better all around PF than WCS, and in a year or two he'll be a better all around center as well. Just not in the very precise role you personally prefer centers to play in.

Sully has limitations, but he is a much better defender than KO, whenever they play together Sully always plays against the bigger player because that bigger player eats up KO too easily and Sully is at least capable to bang and battle that player for position.

rambone wrote:KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.

And Zeller is a downright solid starting center, and is still young and getting stronger like KO. It would be nice to upgrade the position with a star, but it's not far and away our weakest position by any means.

Zeller was much better than Bass, for instance, and Sully's way too slow feet on defense are a bigger problem than Zeller's lack of shot blocking.

Portis is a smart player who plays within himself and knows his limitations, unlike Sully, and Portis has less limitations than Sully.

Portis isn't that far off from WCStein as far as defending the pick and role and defending smaller players on the perimeter. His feet are almost as quick. And that's the skill that WCS is most lauded for.

Portis would be a huge upgrade over Sully and Bass defensively, because he has a better combination of length and quickness and instincts. He's longer than either, has about the same footspeed as Bass, but has much better defensive and rebounding instincts than Bass.

And to further compare Portis to WCS, Portis is already stronger, 246 lbs vs 242. And Portis being a year and a half younger than WCS, he's going to put on more muscle over the next couple years than WCS.

If center was our worst position defensively, taking more radical or desperate measures to upgrade the position would make a lot of sense. But Bass and Sullinger are much worse defenders at the PF position than Zeller or KO are at C.

It's easy to get tricked by draft rankings and conclude that a top 10 prospect is head and shoulders better than a prospect ranked 14-16, but that isn't always the case. Portis is a better all around PF than WCS, and in a year or two he'll be a better all around center as well. Just not in the very precise role you personally prefer centers to play in.

rambone,

I appreciate your points and your efforts to highlight changes in the game and how longstanding prejudices can, well, prejudice our eyeballs.  All my life I've been a fan of smash-mouth basketball.  I love my bigs down low pounding people into paste, wrestling offensive rebounds away from them and going to the line and making them pay.  I want to see the fear in opponents' eyes when they come into the paint and see one of my bigs waiting for them.  However, I have been trying to be more receptive to the reality of today's NBA.  "Center" is no longer even a voting option for the All-Star Game.  I don't give a damn about All-Star Games (I can't remember the last time I watched one, in any sport).  I like when my players are nominated to the All-Star team, but ONLY because I believe that will get them, and us, more favorable calls by the refs.  The days of "no free layups" are gone.  You do that now and you get hit with a flagrant foul and they add up to a suspended game and what good is a player that isn't allowed in the arena by the league?

What you said about pulling rim protecting centers out away from the rim because of outside shooting ability is a very well-taken point, in my opinion.  There is, as the saying goes, more than one way to skin a cat (my apologies to board members who are feline fans.  I love cats too, I just can't eat a whole one by myself anymore).  We need length.  What's more, we need athleticism and speed at that position.  A big, lumbering giant who can't reach the action because they are slow of foot has no value.  Nikola Pekovic is a brute, who can VERY difficult to stop once he establishes his position in the blocks.  He is 6'11" with a respectable 7'2" wingspan and yet is not a highly rated defender.  Does he get backed down much?  Probably not, but he would have to be iso'd to worry about that anyway and the better teams in today's NBA use motion, rather than isos, to get their paint points.

Kelly's numbers are quite good.  No, he is definitely NOT a bull.  No, he is definitely NOT a rim protector.  His blocks/36mpg improved this year, but is still underwhelming.  Want to know something, though?  His blocks/36 are better than Dirk's.  Dirk has other skills (although it took me most of his already long career for me to accept that a 7'0" "stretch 4" could be a good thing to have) but as far as shot blocking/intimidation goes Kelly's marginally better and improving.  Vucevic, the starting center for Orlando, has a career blocks/36 that is equal to what Kelly did last year and Vucevic is no better, if not worse, on defense than Kelly.  Andrew Bogut, of the league-best GSW, averaged fewer blocks/36mpg in his first two seasons than Kelly has in his first 2 seasons and Bogut was the #1 pick in the 2005 draft.  Starting in his 3rd year, though, his numbers took a big jump up.  Who knows with Kelly?  His arms won't grow longer, but his rotations might be faster, his positioning better and he might start getting some calls from the refs.

Dwight Howard is a strong, low post bull.  Did he outplay Bogut?  Yeah, I'd say so, in just about every category except ft%.  He's also enjoying his summer, convincing himself he's a champion no matter what anybody says.  Apparently, having 2 All-League players (Harden and Howard) wasn't a silver bullet after all.  Smoking hot shooting from Curry, great crunch time play by Harrison Barnes and Swiss-Army knife Draymond Green (not to mention solid play from Iggy and Klay Thompson) prevailed.  After Bogut, nobody on GSW's starting 5 was taller than 6'8", 210# Harrison Barnes and nobody was heavier than 6'7" 230# Draymond Green.  Their backup center is raw Uncle Festus Ezeli.  Ezeli played above himself offensively, but that's not saying much.  Memphis had Gasol and Randolph and Koufos.  And how did that work out for them?  In the '80s it would have worked out well for them, but this isn't the '80s.

Offensively, Kelly has it all over the above players except for future HOFer Dirk Nowitzki.  He's a better shooter, a better passer, a better finisher on the fast break and a better ball handler.  Where he falls behind all of them is in self-confidence.  He needs to shoot more.  Period.  If he misses, he misses.  As long as they are "his shot" he should take them, every time.  That's what Brad is telling him, that's what his teammates are telling him and, most importantly, that's what I'm telling him.

I love Sully's game.  I love that he's a brute, that he is as good an offensive rebounder as we've had on the Celtics in a long, long time (our best offensive rebounder on the Celtics under Doc was Leon "junkyard dog" Powe and sometimes Big Baby, due to Doc's philosophy of "fall back on defense and set up") but his shots get blocked a lot when he goes up in the paint and he has that weight problem and he does NOT run on fast breaks.  If our game plan is to be uptempo then Sullysaurus is an overly round peg in a square hole league.

Adapt or die.  I'm trying to too.


bob



.

bob

Great post we definitely see the game the same way, smashmouth basketball can still make a comeback, its still a game of cycles. As good as GS is, they still don't get this far without Bogut, you need that load/rim protector and GS has it. Grizzlies have to upgrade their wing positions as Jeff Green gave them NOTHING and TA got injured during series and Conley was also injured, with a little more health and an upgrade, Grizzlies BIGS can still punish and control a series, they just need more help and health. There is still room for the next Moses or Shaq to get it done, Moses and Shaq won with Dr J and Kobe so if the big man can get another star and the RIGHT pieces he can succeed.

cow

rambone wrote:KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.

And Zeller is a downright solid starting center, and is still young and getting stronger like KO. It would be nice to upgrade the position with a star, but it's not far and away our weakest position by any means.

Zeller was much better than Bass, for instance, and Sully's way too slow feet on defense are a bigger problem than Zeller's lack of shot blocking.

Portis is a smart player who plays within himself and knows his limitations, unlike Sully, and Portis has less limitations than Sully.

Portis isn't that far off from WCStein as far as defending the pick and role and defending smaller players on the perimeter. His feet are almost as quick. And that's the skill that WCS is most lauded for.

Portis would be a huge upgrade over Sully and Bass defensively, because he has a better combination of length and quickness and instincts. He's longer than either, has about the same footspeed as Bass, but has much better defensive and rebounding instincts than Bass.

And to further compare Portis to WCS, Portis is already stronger, 246 lbs vs 242. And Portis being a year and a half younger than WCS, he's going to put on more muscle over the next couple years than WCS.

If center was our worst position defensively, taking more radical or desperate measures to upgrade the position would make a lot of sense. But Bass and Sullinger are much worse defenders at the PF position than Zeller or KO are at C.

It's easy to get tricked by draft rankings and conclude that a top 10 prospect is head and shoulders better than a prospect ranked 14-16, but that isn't always the case. Portis is a better all around PF than WCS, and in a year or two he'll be a better all around center as well. Just not in the very precise role you personally prefer centers to play in.

I have to say I am offended by you calling me "slow to grasp" anything frankly...... or that "we've been over this".
implying that I must too stupid to understand your obviously enlightened thoughts. very Boston. com like of you I will say.

this is not the first time I will add that you have used these un-flattering tactics here.

I would remind you that what YOU think........ is just opinion (like mine are). i guess the difference bewtween you and I is that I understand my opinions may be very wrong and I look for honest disagreements as a way to explore deeper thoughts, not to insult or imply others are somehow "slow" to see how good your opinions are.

I understand what you think (today) about Kelly, I say today, because we all have seen you hawk a certain player here or there as a future great, only to seem to change you mind later on.

only a week or so ago YOU seemed to feel Upshaw was the gratest thing since sliced bread and wil be a longtime NBA starter. Maybe not so much now, I don't really know and frankly don't care either. now you might feel the same about the favor of the day Portis, great!

you certainly are allowed.

what you will NOT to is have a conversation with ME where you will attempt to belittle or imply that your OPINION is somehow fact or truth. I don't play that game and never have any time to give people that resort to those tactics.

So from now on, i'll stay away from threads you start or are prominate in, no loss to me or you I presume

I'll ask that you don't post in any threads I start as well, please.

sam wrote:kdp,

I just want you to know that your line, "...if the stars don't align," was appreciated.

Sam

you caught that did you?

LOL

Rambone,

Exceptionally high praise for Kelly Olynyk.  You obviously think a lot of him.

One of the things for which I believe he doesn't receive due credit is that, on a club for which energy turned into a real weapon as the season wore on, Kelly tries as hard as anyone (except maybe Crowder).  The fact that he sometimes looks gangly and (to me) heavy-legged out there tends to camouflage his energy output as he pounds down the floor or makes a sudden move to the hoop.

I don't believe he has learned how to use his energy to best advantage on the defensive end.  He too often seems to arrive too late to the party, and then he has to reach in with those short arms.  Not as much of a problem at PF as at center, which is one reason I have difficulty of envisioning him as a center, so say nothing of being one of the 20 most valuable centers in the league.

I don't believe in using the +/- stat to evaluate individuals; but, as part of combinations, many of his "pluses" were derived with Celtics starters—especially during the early part of the season and most notably with combinations including Rondo and Green.  I thought the move Olynyk to the bench was an inspired one by Brad because it would allow Kelly to play against second-echelon players.  However, his stats per 20 minutes didn't really improve much.  For the most part, they dipped in the other direction.

His minutes per game dropped from 24.5 (pre-all-star) to 18.5 (post all-star), which is why I used "per 20 minutes" as the common length of time.

His points per 20 minutes increased slightly from 9.1 to 9.5, but that was because he shot more (his shot numbers per 20 minutes increasing from 7.0 to 8.3).  His shooting percentage plummeted from 51.2% to 44.2% after the break, and shooting more threes had relatively little to do with that (he shot 1.1 more three per 20 minutes after the break than before).

As usual, there's not much that's definitive in terms of defensive statistics, and I don't trust the new metric estimates.  His blocks per 20 minutes dropped from 0.6 to 0.4, but he's never going to hang his hat on blocks.....or on steals (which went up from 0.8 to 1.1 per 20 minutes—probably a result of playing with that energized second unit).

It's likely that Kelly hasn't come close to reaching his potential, and who knows what that might be?  But I think it's a bit premature to classify him as one of the 20 most valuable centers in the league; and I wish that visions of Brad Lohaus didn't enter my mind whenever I think of Kelly.

As for +/-, I don't believe in using that stat to evaluate individuals.  The player combination on which he played the most minutes consisted of starters, two of whom (Rondo and Green) are no longer with the team.  Otherwise, Kelly seemed to collaborate well with Smart, as they formed 40% of units that combined for a +57 total. I'm not sure what the implication of that might be with respect to Kelly, but maybe he performs a lot better with strong defensive players around him.

Actually, I believe that the more offense that is injected into the starting unit, the greater the reason for Crowder not to start.  I kept fairly careful track of his time as a starter, and he had great difficulty getting touches.  Going five minutes without a touch was not uncommon as he languished on the perimeter.  I believe the lack of touches also tended to make him more of a risk-taker in his shot selection.  The second unit made dramatically better use of his skills than the starting unit.

Sam

kdp don't be so sensitive, he didn't outright call you a name or anything, Sam and I go at it all the time and we LOVE each other.....just go back at him on your point. I personally wish we could get rid of KO, he is a wus we can't hide on the court as offenses know how soft he is, to go right at him, its an easy match up. There was a 7'2" foreign player that was my pick in that draft that would be the biggest thing since sliced bread on this team if Danny would have made the right move.

kdp59 wrote:

rambone wrote:KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.

And Zeller is a downright solid starting center, and is still young and getting stronger like KO. It would be nice to upgrade the position with a star, but it's not far and away our weakest position by any means.

Zeller was much better than Bass, for instance, and Sully's way too slow feet on defense are a bigger problem than Zeller's lack of shot blocking.

Portis is a smart player who plays within himself and knows his limitations, unlike Sully, and Portis has less limitations than Sully.

Portis isn't that far off from WCStein as far as defending the pick and role and defending smaller players on the perimeter. His feet are almost as quick. And that's the skill that WCS is most lauded for.

Portis would be a huge upgrade over Sully and Bass defensively, because he has a better combination of length and quickness and instincts. He's longer than either, has about the same footspeed as Bass, but has much better defensive and rebounding instincts than Bass.

And to further compare Portis to WCS, Portis is already stronger, 246 lbs vs 242. And Portis being a year and a half younger than WCS, he's going to put on more muscle over the next couple years than WCS.

If center was our worst position defensively, taking more radical or desperate measures to upgrade the position would make a lot of sense. But Bass and Sullinger are much worse defenders at the PF position than Zeller or KO are at C.

It's easy to get tricked by draft rankings and conclude that a top 10 prospect is head and shoulders better than a prospect ranked 14-16, but that isn't always the case. Portis is a better all around PF than WCS, and in a year or two he'll be a better all around center as well. Just not in the very precise role you personally prefer centers to play in.

OK I am bit offened by calling me "slow to grasp" anything frankly. or that "we've been over this".

I would remidn you that what YOU think is just opinion (like myself).

I understand what you think (today) about Kelly. I will remind you and anyone reading that only a week or so ago YOU felt Upshaw was the gratest thing since sliced bread and wil be a longtime NBA starter. Maybe not so much now, I don't really know and frankly don't care either.

I'll stay away from your posts, as you seem to be too close to the Boston. com mode of operation , than the standard that has been here way before I was ever here.

I'll ask that you don't post in any threads I start as well, please.

kdp,


1.  I don't see where his post was specifically addressed to you.  

2.  I tend to hammer points over and over again (there's a reason why Cowens nicknamed me "the pitbull" and it isn't because of my underbite).  There might be posters who feel I'm too demagogic or overbearing in how I am just slow to recognize that I have made my points and I don't need to belabor them.  I don't mind when they point that out, I just buckle down and research my points more thoroughly.  I don't get offended and I don't back off either.  I compete intellectually, win or lose, and take my emotional lumps when I fail to convince others of my glorious righteousness and divine inspiration.

3.  It's just sports and this is just a sports board.


Yo' mama.


bob


.

cowens/oldschool wrote:kdp don't be so sensitive, he didn't outright call you a name or anything, Sam and I go at it all the time and we LOVE each other.....just go back at him on your point. I personally wish we could get rid of KO, he is a wus we can't hide on the court as offenses know how soft he is, to go right at him, its an easy match up. There was a 7'2" foreign player that was my pick in that draft that would be the biggest thing since sliced bread on this team if Danny would have made the right move.

thats fine we all fight with loved ones.

I edited my post as I flt I needed to make myself clear.

Look I sitll go over and read the forum and Bsoton .com (though rarely post there anymore) the snarky name calling and implications that some people are just soo much smarter than (anyone thet disagrees with them ) is complete BS. and one of the things that caused this forum to be started (at least as I understand).

I am too old to desire any contact with people that think that way, and I am privilaged enough that I never have to in real life. I certainly won't engage in any on an online chat room.

kdp my profession as a young man was a bouncer in NYC and I worked at the biggest clubs in the city, never had a problem getting work for 15 years, and I have a passion for basketball. BDC kicked me off cause I would use the wrong words with instigators that came on that board just to incite....anyway I don't mind a confrontation as I was used to it and how a man reacts to that scenario says alot about that person. I don't mind being called out, I can take it.

bob,

he was answering my post that replied ot his (no attacks in mine at all, I understand we all have different opinions).

this is what he worte:

KO is a great backup center. He led the team in +/- by a large margin, and all the advanced stats show he was a major contributor, and the team almost always played better with him on the court.

We've been over this.

He might get dunked on sometimes, or pushed around sometimes, but in general his defense is very solid and the team's offensive efficiency with him on the court is off the charts. He's also pretty clutch in the fourth quarter, when a lot of guys like DeAndre Jordan are sitting on the bench because they can't hit free throws.

I get that you prefer your centers to play a very specific role.

But for some reason you've been slow to grasp the concept that having a center who pulls opposing centers (aka rim protectors) far away from the rim has a huge if little appreciated impact on a team. We see that every night with KO.

I get that you're desperate for a rim protecting center. But KO is quietly one of the top 20 most valuable centers in the NBA, and that's pretty damn good for a guy off the bench.


so who is the you?

I got what he was was saying loud and clear.

I've been around the block, I didnt start and run my own contruction business for over 25 years now by being stupid, slow, unable to adapt or change or be able to read people.

I also don't tolerate personal insults (especially from a sports forum)that are un called for.

Best for me to stay away from his posts and I will, all I asked is Rambone do the same for mine.

kdp59 wrote:

swish wrote:Turning a team into a legitimate contender is a monumental task. Since the shot clock introduction there will have been 61 champs crowned.  Of those 61, 53 had at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players on the roster , 7 had I ALL LEAGUE player on the roster , 1 did not have any ALL LEAGUE players on the roster.  Every year a few teams will manage to put together a roster with at least 2 ALL LEAGUE players. And they are the teams that are the serious contenders. The big question as I see it is how long it is going to take Danny to collect the chips , ( via trades , free agency , or the draft ) to replicate his moves of 2007-08 when he added ALL LEAGUE players Allen and Garnett to existing roster ALL LEAGUER  Pierce . Should be a fascinating process to follow over the future months or more likely years. I'll be watching to see how your predictions turn out.

swish

interesting point about   all-league or all-stars on championship teams.

I would note that in some cases winning begets all-stars . Just look at the FOUR "All-stars" from the Hawks this year.

besides Maybe Horford, how many would have made an all-star team if Atlanta had our record?

I say ZERO.

IN a couple years might Smart be an all-star (in the D. Johnson mold)?

I don't disagree that the model is to get one or two All-star type players and I think Ainge will try to do just that. In this thread I was just exercising my mind and attempting to see what type of roster could be put together to improve the team without that new all-star.

I think the team CAN make improvements without a star (if the "stars" don't align) and be able to contend for the Atlantic division crown next season ( gotta walk before you run , youngins') .

kdp59
I specifically use ALL LEAGUE as the measuring stick because it is more difficult to attain all league status then all star status. All league is top 15 while all star is top 24. The only all leaguer on the Atlanta club this year was Horford. You do a very thorough job, and I'm sure time consuming , of presenting your opinions. Keep them coming.

swish

Sam, KO's +/- was positive, and team best, throughout the season, in a wide variety of lineups.

And Rondo and Green sucked this year, so they weren't pulling up KO's +/- by any means.
They sucked sucked sucked, and they sucked for the sucker teams we traded them to.

There's a reason this team did a 180 as soon as those loafers were traded, and there's a reason the Grizzlies and Mavs underperformed from the day they got those suckers.

KDP, Upshaw is a great player and a great talent. My wavering was and continues to be about his drug use and character. I just don't want another Len Bias/Reggie Lewis situation, and I don't want another Aaron Hernandez either.

It seems there's pretty much a consensus around here except for Bob that doesn't appreciate how valuable KO is, which is different from how good a player is.

It's like if KO and the team keep thriving in any and every lineup he's in, it doesn't matter, and if he peaks out at merely a super-sub level, he needs to be shipped out on the first train, just to punish him for not being a super star.

The Heat and the Spurs have been the two dominant teams in the NBA for the last decade, and neither team had a single great shot blocker. What they did have was smart bigs who could stretch the floor a bit and make great decisions and passes. Meanwhile, the other teams' rim protectors were pulled away from the basket, and space opened up to score inside.

Shot blocking is the most overrated stat in the NBA. More than half the time, it doesn't even lead to a change of possession. If the Celtics, unable to find the next Bill Russell, can put together a team that is good/great at every aspect of the game except shot blocking, then we're doing extremely well.

I too like interior toughness and intimidation, but you can get that from other positions, like PF, SF, SG, and PG. Especially when your stretch centers have neutralized the other team's rim protector by pulling them away from the battle. What good is Dwight Howard when he's standing out at the 3 point line on defense?

Meanwhile, our PFs, SFs, SGs, and PGs can be winning the physical battles at the rim.

And for as much as Kelly Olynyk fails the eye test and the cool test and the tattoo test, he's actually pretty much average defensively against centers, in large part because the 280+ lb center is an endangered species, and more teams are playing Bosh type PF/C hybrids at the position.

KO's footspeed against PFs is his big defensive weakness, as with Jared Sullinger. KO's strength is just fine as a backup center, and he simply makes the team better in every single lineup he's placed in. But what this team really needs, more than a shot blocker at center, is a power forward with quick feet, good length, a high motor, and a good bbiq. Portis brings all of those, and in the ever evolving NBA, he'll even be a good overall center within a couple years, in all likelihood better than WCS overall.

Honestly, Sully is a better center than WCS, and this will become clear over the years.

KDP, I'm fine with avoiding your threads, and I'm done defending one of our team's better contributors.