Re: so what's the best scenario if we don't get a star?

by **rambone** Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:16 pm

One last point. We all remember how the NFL used to be an almost exclusively 4-3 defensive front league. Only a couple teams used a 3-4 front, and the Patriots had great results with it, in part because so many of the best 3-4 draft prospects and free agents were not highly valued by other teams. Teddy Bruschi was just a borderline-nfl-level, undersized defensive end, for instance. And Richard Seymour was considered too small to be a DT, and too slow to be a 4-3 DE. And Wilfork was too big and slow to be a great 4-3 DT.

The Patriots had major success with the 3-4, and then half the league or more copied it, and the supply of 3-4 players became much harder to get because they were so highly valued. To the point where it pretty much became more practical to switch to a 4-3 and get all those players who were suddenly less valued.

In the NBA, the prototypical roles for each position are pretty rigidly set, and a lot of the draft steals end up being guys who just didn't fit into the rigid prototypes. Draymond Green and Stephen Curry being great examples of that. And if the rest of that roster didn't compliment Green and Curry so well, Green and Curry wouldn't look nearly as valuable.

Right now, everybody wants a stretch PF and a rim protecting center, and they want a true point guard and a taller shooting guard who is really good from 3.

But there's no reason why a SG sized point guard playing next to a point guard sized SG can't be effective.
And there's no reason why a stretch center can't be combined with a rim protecting PF who plays like a center.

And all of these "misfits" can be found lower in the draft, undervalued like the football 3-4 stars used to be, like Bruschi, Wilfork, and Seymour.

We already have our SG sized PG in Marcus Smart, and we already have a couple good finesse/stretch centers in Zeller and KO. And absent the sudden discovery of the next prototypical superstar rim protecting center, there are other, unorthodox ways to make this a complete and elite team.

And we're pretty damn close already.

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:01 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob

Great post we definitely see the game the same way, smashmouth basketball can still make a comeback, its still a game of cycles. As good as GS is, they still don't get this far without Bogut, you need that load/rim protector and GS has it. Grizzlies have to upgrade their wing positions as Jeff Green gave them NOTHING and TA got injured during series and Conley was also injured, with a little more health and an upgrade, Grizzlies BIGS can still punish and control a series, they just need more help and health. There is still room for the next Moses or Shaq to get it done, Moses and Shaq won with Dr J and Kobe so if the big man can get another star and the RIGHT pieces he can succeed.

cow

cow,

I never said, nor thought, we saw the game that much differently. I've said, many times, that we like many of the same type of players. Where our biggest differences have come is in our opinions of what the draft is worth and, extending from that, whether it is worth it to tank to get a higher pick.

Everything is about cycles, nothing goes in a straight line forever, I'm just not as patient as you. I don't know when the cycle back towards Land of the Dinosaurs will begin, all I know is that there is a serious shortage of behemoths in the league now, so much so they've dropped "Center" from the all-star balloting. What I do know is that the two teams that are in the NBA Finals are not big men-driven teams, they are wings-driven teams. What I do know is that the teams that were big men-driven teams are done. I don't know if a high draft pick will work out (see #2 pick Beasley, Michael; #2 pick Morrison, Adam; #4 pick Dion Waiters; #6 pick Jan Vesely; #10 pick Jimmer Fredette; etc ad nauseum) but even beasts like #1 pick Anthony Davis needed years before he grew into his role. Assuming he remains healthy that could work out quite well for NOP, and that's something else we don't know.

The future is now, Cow, it always is. Carpe Diem. Anything worth having is worth having now. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride which means all the "woulda, coulda, shouldas" aren't worth doodly-squat. The deals, and players, available are the ones you have to live with and nobody is going to do the flagship franchise of the NBA any favors. Having a bunch of mastodons when the league is being built to be able to run away from them is not where we want to be. Maybe someday again, sure, but until then we play with the hand the league's current orientation deals us. If you cannot slow down LeBron you are dead, so you stock up on defensive 3s. Did Miami even have a center when LBJ was there? Bosh? Talk about a NON-physically dominating center! Towns might become the next Moses Malone or he might blow his knees and career out like Andrew Bynum who is, still, only 27 and looks like a pin cushion from all the forks that have been stuck in him or he might end up being the newest mastodon in a land of gazelles.

bob

.

by **wide clyde** Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:19 pm

I am not sure that I can praise Olynyk as much as Rambone does, but Olynyk certainly improved in his second year to the point that it will be quite interesting to see how much more he can improve. His injury that forced him to sit out for almost a month took the shine off some of his improvements, but he clearly did lose some minutes after getting back in the rotation to Crowder, Bass and even Jerebko that he needs to gain back for next season.

I am also not as discouraged with Olynyk as Cowens is, but I do see much more ways that he can improve and all of them center around Kelly can getting much stronger even it means that he does not gain much weight.

It is very likely that extra strength will give him more confidence in everything he does on the court. It will allow him to not get pushed around as much and may even help him with his offensive confidence because he will be able to get his shot off more quickly and also not get bumped off his path the the hoop quite as much. Additional strength should also make him quicker on defense and allow him to move laterally to more rebounds next year.

Sam, I fully agree that both Olynyk and Crowder play much more effectively with the second unit (and, for all the same reasons that you mentioned) and this is why I have written several times that the Cs need to add three new players (hopefully not all rookies) to the nine man rotation for next year to become the 50 win season that I am still predicting.

by **Sam** Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:33 pm

kdp and Rambone, this current whatever-it-is (disagreement? hissy fit? war?) is most ironic.

Having been through a situation in which I feel I wasted far too much effort on communicating diligently, thoroughly and knowledgeably, I've had to redefine the worthiness of taking a serious approach to posting extensively.

But, in the course of all this reflection, I thought about you two and how well you've succeeded in contributing enthusiasm and new levels of perspectives to this forum without becoming embroiled in petty confrontations. You two are among the Clydesdales of the board's figurative sleigh, doing an immense amount of the heavy work, and contributing mightily to the board's reputation for basketball knowledgeability.

So it seems ironic—almost laughable (no disrespect intended)—that you two should be talking about avoiding one another. It's obviously your right to do so. It's just that it seems as though you should both be basking in the glow of being major contributors with similar areas of interest. You're obviously on an individual and collective roll as posters. And, from a selfish viewpoint (because I may have learned more than anyone in reading your posts), I hope you can bury the hatchet somewhere other than one another's scalps and keep engaging in the wonderful perspectives you offer while refraining from making it personal.

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:55 pm

bob

Other than Anthony Davis, all of those busts were not big men and it taking Davis a few years to develop his game is well worth it for that franchise. I actually like this draft better than last years ballyhooed draft, theres a potential franchise big in there and there might be more than one. Moses took a team of also rans and role players all the way to the Finals, just like the young Lebron did with the Cavs in his first Finals. Lebron and MJ are the only players to win a title without that requisite big man, the great Dr J finally got through after acquiring Moses, at that time the most dominant big man in the game. But its not like MJ or Lebron didn't have help as Scottie Pippen and Grant/Rodman and Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were all star/all NBA types on their own. Unfortunately right now we don't have one player that is near any of the players I just named in ability or level or as a building block. Perhaps if we didn't whiff on Gobert, who will be a future DPoY, him as a defensive anchor next to Sully could have allowed Sully to blossom into an all star as Sully by himself is not enough as he doesn't have any help in that paint. With those 2 in place it would be so much easier to acquire or develop a functional all star type wing, your not gonna develop that young wing playing next to KO and Z.....so yeah I wanted a chance to upgrade our talent level this year in the draft. Its not like we don't need it.

cow

cow

by **cowens/oldschool** Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:46 am

rambone wrote:Sam, KO's +/- was positive, and team best, throughout the season, in a wide variety of lineups.

And Rondo and Green sucked this year, so they weren't pulling up KO's +/- by any means.
They sucked sucked sucked, and they sucked for the sucker teams we traded them to.

There's a reason this team did a 180 as soon as those loafers were traded, and there's a reason the Grizzlies and Mavs underperformed from the day they got those suckers.

KDP, Upshaw is a great player and a great talent. My wavering was and continues to be about his drug use and character. I just don't want another Len Bias/Reggie Lewis situation, and I don't want another Aaron Hernandez either.

It seems there's pretty much a consensus around here except for Bob that doesn't appreciate how valuable KO is, which is different from how good a player is.

It's like if KO and the team keep thriving in any and every lineup he's in, it doesn't matter, and if he peaks out at merely a super-sub level, he needs to be shipped out on the first train, just to punish him for not being a super star.

The Heat and the Spurs have been the two dominant teams in the NBA for the last decade, and neither team had a single great shot blocker. What they did have was smart bigs who could stretch the floor a bit and make great decisions and passes. Meanwhile, the other teams' rim protectors were pulled away from the basket, and space opened up to score inside.

Shot blocking is the most overrated stat in the NBA. More than half the time, it doesn't even lead to a change of possession. If the Celtics, unable to find the next Bill Russell, can put together a team that is good/great at every aspect of the game except shot blocking, then we're doing extremely well.

I too like interior toughness and intimidation, but you can get that from other positions, like PF, SF, SG, and PG. Especially when your stretch centers have neutralized the other team's rim protector by pulling them away from the battle. What good is Dwight Howard when he's standing out at the 3 point line on defense?

Meanwhile, our PFs, SFs, SGs, and PGs can be winning the physical battles at the rim.

And for as much as Kelly Olynyk fails the eye test and the cool test and the tattoo test, he's actually pretty much average defensively against centers, in large part because the 280+ lb center is an endangered species, and more teams are playing Bosh type PF/C hybrids at the position.

KO's footspeed against PFs is his big defensive weakness, as with Jared Sullinger. KO's strength is just fine as a backup center, and he simply makes the team better in every single lineup he's placed in. But what this team really needs, more than a shot blocker at center, is a power forward with quick feet, good length, a high motor, and a good bbiq. Portis brings all of those, and in the ever evolving NBA, he'll even be a good overall center within a couple years, in all likelihood better than WCS overall.

Honestly, Sully is a better center than WCS, and this will become clear over the years.

KDP, I'm fine with avoiding your threads, and I'm done defending one of our team's better contributors.

Tim Duncan is a great defensive player and shot blocker and has been for years.

Shot blocking is important, its not just the actual shots, its also the huge number of shots that shot blockers alter as they are jumping on an offensive players shooting hand.

We must be watching different games, C's always put KO on the weaker defender whether its the 4 or 5 because the better stronger player overpowers KO too easily.

KO is a top 20 center in the league? that is laughable, hes a worse center than Zeller and Sully on his own team. If hes a top 20 center why is he always getting destroyed and shoved around like a rag doll in the paint? Hes too slow to get to rotations, he doesn't have athletic ability or strength to stop post ups, he barely has any help defensive ability and everyone on defense has to help him, as the offense attacks him, which puts the overall defense in bad positions.

by **cowens/oldschool** Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:54 am

Grizzlies actually went on a 10 or 11 game winning streak as soon as they got Green, then as season wore on he faded and faded and gave them nothing down the stretch and was even worse in the playoffs, as Barkley and Shaq were calling him out, saying hes got to give the team something. Well we know how that always works out for Jeff Green, Mr Disappointment, hes a future veteran minimum contract and bench player going forward.

Nice move Danny

by **bobheckler** Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:58 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob

Other than Anthony Davis, all of those busts were not big men and it taking Davis a few years to develop his game is well worth it for that franchise. I actually like this draft better than last years ballyhooed draft, theres a potential franchise big in there and there might be more than one. Moses took a team of also rans and role players all the way to the Finals, just like the young Lebron did with the Cavs in his first Finals. Lebron and MJ are the only players to win a title without that requisite big man, the great Dr J finally got through after acquiring Moses, at that time the most dominant big man in the game. But its not like MJ or Lebron didn't have help as Scottie Pippen and Grant/Rodman and Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were all star/all NBA types on their own. Unfortunately right now we don't have one player that is near any of the players I just named in ability or level or as a building block. Perhaps if we didn't whiff on Gobert, who will be a future DPoY, him as a defensive anchor next to Sully could have allowed Sully to blossom into an all star as Sully by himself is not enough as he doesn't have any help in that paint. With those 2 in place it would be so much easier to acquire or develop a functional all star type wing, your not gonna develop that young wing playing next to KO and Z.....so yeah I wanted a chance to upgrade our talent level this year in the draft. Its not like we don't need it.

cow

cow

cow,

Beasley and Morrison might not be centers but they are bigs, 6'9" each.

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Michael Olawakandi?

How about #8 pick 6'11" center Channing Frye?

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Andrea Barf-nani?

How about #9 pick 7'0" Patrick O'Bryant?

How about #10 pick 6'11" Mouhammed Sene?

How about #1 pick 7'0" Greg Oden?

How about #10 pick 7'0" Spencer Hawes?

How about #2 pick 7'0" Hashem Thabeet?

Is that enough Top 10 draft picks, including a number of top 2 picks that should have been "no brainers", to make my point? These were from 2005 to 2009 and that's all. I would think 5-9 years should be enough time for these bigs to develop their games, don't you? In Oden's case he was a victim of, what amount to, career-ending injuries but so what? Durability is part of the game too. If Gobert's feet turn into Bill Walton's, then what's so great about him? A player who can't stay on the floor because he's fragile is no more valuable than a player who can't stay on the floor because he can't manage his conditioning and control his weight (I'm looking straight at you now, Sully) or because he can't control his personal life/habits (e.g. Vin Baker and Larry Sanders).

bob

by **bobheckler** Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:09 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Grizzlies actually went on a 10 or 11 game winning streak as soon as they got Green, then as season wore on he faded and faded and gave them nothing down the stretch and was even worse in the playoffs, as Barkley and Shaq were calling him out, saying hes got to give the team something. Well we know how that always works out for Jeff Green, Mr Disappointment, hes a future veteran minimum contract and bench player going forward.

Nice move Danny

cow,

Seeing you, of all people, write "Nice Move Danny" makes me wonder if you're serious or being sarcastic. From the context I'd say serious but...

The deal is still probably rolling forward. Green went for Prince, who went for Jerebko and Gigi. Depending upon what happens with them we'll start to see if that deal worked out. I am no longer underwhelmed by Danny's trades since I know he is not a patient man and is more than willing to roll the deal forward when he gets a good offer. Danny had to roll 'Toine and Jiri Welsch forward a few deals before he ended up with the players and picks he needed to get Rondo and the players he traded for Ray Allen, who begat us KG. A lot of that was timing. Seattle was ready to go young, so franchise player Ray Allen could be had and, as that article about KG showed, owner Glen Taylor of Minny was nudging KG out the door too. KG just didn't want to go to Boston, even though a deal was on the table to Taylor, until Ray Allen came here and then he saw the possibilities that could come with Ray and Paul and him.

Danny has said that he wanted to make some bigger deals last year and before, but we didn't have the assets to be a principal in those deals, just facilitators. The fruits are ripening, with the possibility of the fruits we own from Brooklyn in 2016 and 2018 being especially sweet.

bob

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:12 am

bob I was refering to the biggest boneheaded move in Celtics history, trading for Green in the first place, dismantling a championship roster, taking away the teams toughness and identity. Next year the guy will be 30 and hes run out of the word potential as hes been a tease every stop. Danny thought with his Worthy like athleticism, he'd be the next star piece. Every stop he has had all NBA talent to play off of, Durant and Westbrook, KG and Pierce and Rondo, then Gasol and Randolph....and hes done nothing, but be a big tease and big disappointment.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:27 am

bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:bob

Other than Anthony Davis, all of those busts were not big men and it taking Davis a few years to develop his game is well worth it for that franchise. I actually like this draft better than last years ballyhooed draft, theres a potential franchise big in there and there might be more than one. Moses took a team of also rans and role players all the way to the Finals, just like the young Lebron did with the Cavs in his first Finals. Lebron and MJ are the only players to win a title without that requisite big man, the great Dr J finally got through after acquiring Moses, at that time the most dominant big man in the game. But its not like MJ or Lebron didn't have help as Scottie Pippen and Grant/Rodman and Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were all star/all NBA types on their own. Unfortunately right now we don't have one player that is near any of the players I just named in ability or level or as a building block. Perhaps if we didn't whiff on Gobert, who will be a future DPoY, him as a defensive anchor next to Sully could have allowed Sully to blossom into an all star as Sully by himself is not enough as he doesn't have any help in that paint. With those 2 in place it would be so much easier to acquire or develop a functional all star type wing, your not gonna develop that young wing playing next to KO and Z.....so yeah I wanted a chance to upgrade our talent level this year in the draft. Its not like we don't need it.

cow

cow

cow,

Beasley and Morrison might not be centers but they are bigs, 6'9" each.

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Michael Olawakandi?

How about #8 pick 6'11" center Channing Frye?

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Andrea Barf-nani?

How about #9 pick 7'0" Patrick O'Bryant?

How about #10 pick 6'11" Mouhammed Sene?

How about #1 pick 7'0" Greg Oden?

How about #10 pick 7'0" Spencer Hawes?

How about #2 pick 7'0" Hashem Thabeet?

Is that enough Top 10 draft picks, including a number of top 2 picks that should have been "no brainers", to make my point? These were from 2005 to 2009 and that's all. I would think 5-9 years should be enough time for these bigs to develop their games, don't you? In Oden's case he was a victim of, what amount to, career-ending injuries but so what? Durability is part of the game too. If Gobert's feet turn into Bill Walton's, then what's so great about him? A player who can't stay on the floor because he's fragile is no more valuable than a player who can't stay on the floor because he can't manage his conditioning and control his weight (I'm looking straight at you now, Sully) or because he can't control his personal life/habits (e.g. Vin Baker and Larry Sanders).

bob

good points, alot of those players we weren't in position to take, Dannys job is to take the best player there for our needs. The year we pass on DeAndre Jordan, we take JR Giddens and Bill Walker, why not take a chance on an athletic freak like Jordan just as a role player for further length and defense behind Perk and KG? All the scouting reports stated he was raw and freaky athletic and we needed more length off the bench as all we had was Leon and Big Baby as our back up bigs.....you already know how I feel about Gobert. We missed out on Jordan developing into a real force with KG teaching him the game.

by **bobheckler** Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:24 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob I was refering to the biggest boneheaded move in Celtics history, trading for Green in the first place, dismantling a championship roster, taking away the teams toughness and identity. Next year the guy will be 30 and hes run out of the word potential as hes been a tease every stop. Danny thought with his Worthy like athleticism, he'd be the next star piece. Every stop he has had all NBA talent to play off of, Durant and Westbrook, KG and Pierce and Rondo, then Gasol and Randolph....and hes done nothing, but be a big tease and big disappointment.

cow,

I was a fan of Perk too, I used to extol the intangibles he brought to the court all the time but saying trading Perk, the weakest link of that championship team, "dismantled" it is, in my opinion, a gross overstatement. Perk was valued, but he wasn't, isn't and never will be the "difference maker" in any form or manner.

You think Perk was the poster child of that team's toughness and identity and not KG? Really? Man. It all changed with KG. Pierce fought like hell for years on crappy teams (which included Perk, btw) but couldn't effect the change. KG came in and, through very vocal leadership (Pierce didn't lead verbally, he led on the court) changed us. Perk couldn't anchor a defense well before KG got here and didn't anchor it well in OKC either. The defensive anchor of that team was, and still is, Serge Ibaka, NOT Perk. To OKC's surprise and dismay, Perk turned out to be exactly what he was here, a fine complementary player.

Perk blew out his knee. Perk weighs 280# (which doesn't bode well longterm for a rebuilt knee. He's only 30 years old, averaged less than 10mpg on Cleveland and less than 20mpg on OKC this year, and has nothing left but playing the thug role) and wanted pretty big money for a player whose best part of his game is his game face. Your points about Jeff Green are well-made and I agree with them, I'm not disputing them, I'm supporting them, but OKC was disappointed in what they got in Perk too. They found he was not a big upgrade over Nenad Krstic and man, that really hurts because Krstic was soft as a grape.

Trading Perk "dismantled" that championship team? I think you got your linchpins confused, bro.

bob

.

by **bobheckler** Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:43 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:bob

Other than Anthony Davis, all of those busts were not big men and it taking Davis a few years to develop his game is well worth it for that franchise. I actually like this draft better than last years ballyhooed draft, theres a potential franchise big in there and there might be more than one. Moses took a team of also rans and role players all the way to the Finals, just like the young Lebron did with the Cavs in his first Finals. Lebron and MJ are the only players to win a title without that requisite big man, the great Dr J finally got through after acquiring Moses, at that time the most dominant big man in the game. But its not like MJ or Lebron didn't have help as Scottie Pippen and Grant/Rodman and Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh were all star/all NBA types on their own. Unfortunately right now we don't have one player that is near any of the players I just named in ability or level or as a building block. Perhaps if we didn't whiff on Gobert, who will be a future DPoY, him as a defensive anchor next to Sully could have allowed Sully to blossom into an all star as Sully by himself is not enough as he doesn't have any help in that paint. With those 2 in place it would be so much easier to acquire or develop a functional all star type wing, your not gonna develop that young wing playing next to KO and Z.....so yeah I wanted a chance to upgrade our talent level this year in the draft. Its not like we don't need it.

cow

cow

cow,

Beasley and Morrison might not be centers but they are bigs, 6'9" each.

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Michael Olawakandi?

How about #8 pick 6'11" center Channing Frye?

How about #1 pick 7'0" center Andrea Barf-nani?

How about #9 pick 7'0" Patrick O'Bryant?

How about #10 pick 6'11" Mouhammed Sene?

How about #1 pick 7'0" Greg Oden?

How about #10 pick 7'0" Spencer Hawes?

How about #2 pick 7'0" Hashem Thabeet?

Is that enough Top 10 draft picks, including a number of top 2 picks that should have been "no brainers", to make my point? These were from 2005 to 2009 and that's all. I would think 5-9 years should be enough time for these bigs to develop their games, don't you? In Oden's case he was a victim of, what amount to, career-ending injuries but so what? Durability is part of the game too. If Gobert's feet turn into Bill Walton's, then what's so great about him? A player who can't stay on the floor because he's fragile is no more valuable than a player who can't stay on the floor because he can't manage his conditioning and control his weight (I'm looking straight at you now, Sully) or because he can't control his personal life/habits (e.g. Vin Baker and Larry Sanders).

bob

good points, alot of those players we weren't in position to take, Dannys job is to take the best player there for our needs. The year we pass on DeAndre Jordan, we take JR Giddens and Bill Walker, why not take a chance on an athletic freak like Jordan just as a role player for further length and defense behind Perk and KG? All the scouting reports stated he was raw and freaky athletic and we needed more length off the bench as all we had was Leon and Big Baby as our back up bigs.....you already know how I feel about Gobert. We missed out on Jordan developing into a real force with KG teaching him the game.

cow,

That same argument can be made about every 2nd rounder who sticks in the NBA and certainly every 2nd rounder who ends up starting in the NBA.

Draymond Green, Chandler Parsons, DeAndre Jordan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, our Isaiah Thomas, Kyle Korver, Khris Middleton, Goran Dragic, Monta Ellis, NBA 6th man Lou Williams, Hassan Whiteside, Paul Millsap, Marc Gasol. Every one of these players were 2nd rounders. One could ask the same question of every single GM in the league you're asking of Danny, "why didn't you take a chance on them?".

My answers to that question:

1. Because the draft is a crap shoot and sure things aren't always and long shots sometimes come in.
2. Because there were red flags flapping around those players that caused every single GM picking in the 1st round to decide to not take the chance.

Inre Jordan, here's something from draftexpress's write up about him from back in 2008, when he was at Texas A&M, the bolds are mine:

March 26, 2008
Texas A&M lost a very close matchup with UCLA, but that didn’t have all that much to do with DeAndre Jordan’s play. The freshman came off the bench and contributed 6 points, 4 rebounds and 4 turnovers in 15 minutes. He was immediately called for a moving screen violation right after entering the game, but seemed to be off to a good start after making one very fluid pivot move in the lane for a nice looking basket, and then scoring on an athletic offensive rebound put-back dunk. Things mostly went south after that, as he was called for his second offensive foul for hooking Lorenzo Mata-Real while trying to establish position in the paint, and then committed another turnover after being doubled-teamed in the post, not having the strength or reaction time to handle it quickly enough—which has been typical for Jordan this season. He did score another basket on an easy layup after his man left him alone underneath the basket to double-team someone on the perimeter, but was finally benched late in the game after a foolish turnover on a lazy cross-court pass, and two rejections he suffered underneath the rim courtesy of Kevin Love.

Defensively, things weren’t any better. He left his defender wide open for at least four wide open jump-shots, not hedging and recovering quickly or aggressively enough on pick and roll plays, and did a poor job denying position inside the paint, which gave Kevin Love a fairly easy jump-hook shot right over him. His lack of awareness was really exposed when he was supposed to switch on a screen and cover Darren Collison, but instead tried to get his teammate to switch back in mid-possession, and ended up giving up an easy 3-pointer.

Jordan did not finish off the season very well at all, scoring in double-digits just four times in all of January, February and March, after he was able to do so nine times in November and December. It’s pretty obvious by now that Jordan is a project with a capital P, one that will demand a great deal of nurturing and patience before he’s able to contribute much of anything in the NBA. He obviously needs another year in college to help prepare him for the pros, but the danger of not improving enough and damaging his stock badly may be too much to risk, even if it’s rumored that he is currently leaning towards staying. That’s the sad state of the NBA draft unfortunately. Jordan will have to develop a great work ethic and love for the game if he’s going to have any chance of achieving his great potential.

As it turns out, Jordan did NOT stay that extra year in school, he was in the 2008 draft. You're wondering why NOBODY, not just Danny, thought a "project with a capital P" was worth a 1st round pick?

Did you watch the Clippers/Rockets series? Jordan's free throw shooting almost single-handedly lost that series for them.

bob

.

by **Sam** Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:58 pm

Bob, don't you know that hindsight is king?

Sam

by **bobheckler** Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:00 pm

sam wrote:Bob, don't you know that hindsight is king?

Sam

sam,

Yeah. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed hindsight is king.

bob

.

by **worcester** Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:50 pm

I sure hope Danny trades for a center rather than tries to draft one. His one blind spot as a GM has been drafting (or not drafting) quality centers.

by **bobheckler** Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:42 pm

worcester wrote:I sure hope Danny trades for a center rather than tries to draft one. His one blind spot as a GM has been drafting (or not drafting) quality centers.

worcester,

Don't let Cow see this, Danny drafted Perk.

bob

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by **worcester** Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:52 pm

True dat.

by **wide clyde** Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:54 pm

bob,

I can see your points about Perkins as not being a really good player, but sometimes a team functions better with certain players (and not even star players) than they do without them. I think that Perkins fits this category in his Celtics days.

Yes, Garnett was the MAN in leading the toughness of the Celtics defense in those years, but Perkins clearly complimented Garnett in an exceptional manner. No one the Cs have had in his position after his trade duplicated his productivity in his position.

Perkins did not replicate his Celtics role in either OKC or in Cleveland, he got paid too much in OKC, he was never a quality offensive player and his stupid continuation of committing terrible offensive fouls angered me to the bone, but he was a very important part of the 2008 championship to the point of if he had been healthy in 2009 we may have won back to back titles.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:24 pm

bob

Your missing the point, I'm trying to show that the year we passed on Jordan, there actually was a need for length, as our 2 bigs behind the starters were Leon and Davis, two 6'7"-6"8" PF's. I actually enjoyed watching them play and used to refer to them as Silas and Unseld.

Also just cause I didn't mention KG doesn't mean I forgot his HoF abilities and contributions, he was like another coach on the floor and I said many times those years we have the best defensive 4-5 combo in basketball and with a young Rondo shutting down opposing PG's. I used to call that defense the Bermuda Triangle, and as great as KG was Perk made his defense even better and obviously KG made that defense and team. Take away Paul Silas, how much harder would Dave Cowens have to work and would he be effective enough to carry that team by himself?

I thought the year before we acquired KG, management decided to have the best shot in the draft as possible, something they should have done this year. They never played Perk with Big Al together with Pierce, it was always Gomes and Big Al, undersized at the 4 and 5. The few instances they played Big Al and Perk together, they looked great in that paint. Perk in fact anchored the Thunder all the way to the Finals that year of the trade. Dwight Howard used to call Perk his toughest match up, but we don't need to rehash the past, lets stop talking about Perk....one thing he can do is anchor a defense.

cow

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:06 pm

wide clyde wrote:bob,

I can see your points about Perkins as not being a really good player, but sometimes a team functions better with certain players (and not even star players) than they do without them. I think that Perkins fits this category in his Celtics days.

Yes, Garnett was the MAN in leading the toughness of the Celtics defense in those years, but Perkins clearly complimented Garnett in an exceptional manner. No one the Cs have had in his position after his trade duplicated his productivity in his position.

Perkins did not replicate his Celtics role in either OKC or in Cleveland, he got paid too much in OKC, he was never a quality offensive player and his stupid continuation of committing terrible offensive fouls angered me to the bone, but he was a very important part of the 2008 championship to the point of if he had been healthy in 2009 we may have won back to back titles.

clyde it was KG who went down in 09, we had the best record in the league at the time and had a 19 game winning streak that year before his injury.

Perk went down in game 6 of the Finals in 2010, at the time we had a 3-2 lead in the series and Lakers had a 6 point lead in 2nd quarter of game 6 at time of injury, that team easily could have added another championship to their resume.

by **Sam** Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:49 pm

Bob,

I've always loved the expression, "There's none so blind as those who will not see." It has been on my mind often in the past few days. The Moody Blues (whom we happening to be watching on tv at this minute) use the phrase in "I Know You're out there Somewhere," and it's my favorite of their many great songs. In fact, we're going to see Justin Haywood in Boston on August 21. I almost hate to mention it because he's a relatively old guy and he doesn't crouch when he sings.

Sam

by **bobheckler** Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:20 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob

Your missing the point, I'm trying to show that the year we passed on Jordan, there actually was a need for length, as our 2 bigs behind the starters were Leon and Davis, two 6'7"-6"8" PF's. I actually enjoyed watching them play and used to refer to them as Silas and Unseld.

Also just cause I didn't mention KG doesn't mean I forgot his HoF abilities and contributions, he was like another coach on the floor and I said many times those years we have the best defensive 4-5 combo in basketball and with a young Rondo shutting down opposing PG's. I used to call that defense the Bermuda Triangle, and as great as KG was Perk made his defense even better and obviously KG made that defense and team. Take away Paul Silas, how much harder would Dave Cowens have to work and would he be effective enough to carry that team by himself?

I thought the year before we acquired KG, management decided to have the best shot in the draft as possible, something they should have done this year. They never played Perk with Big Al together with Pierce, it was always Gomes and Big Al, undersized at the 4 and 5. The few instances they played Big Al and Perk together, they looked great in that paint. Perk in fact anchored the Thunder all the way to the Finals that year of the trade. Dwight Howard used to call Perk his toughest match up, but we don't need to rehash the past, lets stop talking about Perk....one thing he can do is anchor a defense.

cow

cow,

Jordan was drafted #35 in the 2008 draft. I think we did pretty well in 2008 without the size you are citing.

If you watched the Houston/Clippers series, and I'm sure you did, you saw Kevin and Doc using Hack-a-Shaq strategies against the other team's center. The series boiled down to which center could make a free throw. I lost count of all the empty possessions BOTH teams had because neither center could put the ball in the hole from the line. It was disgraceful.

bob

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:55 am

Sam I don't know that much about your music tastes, but I always thought the Beatles were great, but also overated....they were just the first 4 guys that used that format. So I guess they were ahead of their time, others used the same format and surpassed them IMHO.

by **Sam** Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:26 pm

Cow,

I think the Beatles were great from two perspectives: their writing and their performances. Virtually every format in popular music is derivative. Being among the first to introduce a new form is a biggie. The Beatles' style was derived from John Lennon's skiffle group, The Journeymen. Skiffle was a combination of several musical forms, including folk, jazz and blues. So the Beatles fit neatly into the evolution of popular music, although their ability to communicate their special form is much of what set them apart. As for being "overrated," I can't possibly imagine on what basis that could be true.

As for my music tastes, they cut across most types, from classical to swing (I had my own swing band at age 14), to band, pop, folk, jazz, hard rock, alternative, operatic, etc. But the performance genre I like best is unquestionably orchestral which I link closely with sports like basketball because, in both activities, there are no second chances allowed. If you fail in your responsibility, you risk screwing it up for the others, so absolute dependability is a must. A line from my funeral reads, "One of the few experiences that can rival making a game-saving catch is the absolute thrill of being depended upon—with no second chances allowed—in a live orchestral performance."

Sam

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