Re: Jordan to Mavs

by **worcester** Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:11 pm

Thanks TJ. So if the Mavs suck next year but don't really, really suck, we may get a #8 pick from the Rondo trade plus Jae Crowder? Here's hoping.

Bob, I love your turn of phrase, "Brooklyn would have been so far beyond screwed if he didn't re-sign with them they wouldn't even be able to see "screwed" from where they would be." Not quite Dickens or Twain but damn good.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:01 pm

What scares me is Nets just resigned a bunch of players and they may actually not be lottery bound, which would be terrible for us.

by **bobheckler** Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:05 pm

worcester wrote:Thanks TJ. So if the Mavs suck next year but don't really, really suck, we may get a #8 pick from the Rondo trade plus Jae Crowder? Here's hoping.

Bob, I love your turn of phrase, "Brooklyn would have been so far beyond screwed if he didn't re-sign with them they wouldn't even be able to see "screwed" from where they would be." Not quite Dickens or Twain but damn good.

Thanks, worcester. It was the best of phrases, it was the worst of phrases. I'm afraid Dickens and Twain are out of my league. I'd be obscenely proud, however, just to carry Hunter S. Thompson's bottle of Pinch. Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.

bob

.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:15 pm

Cuban will get to Doc one way or another. He has to be ticked off major.

What happened to the old saying "A man's word is his bond"

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:12 pm

bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:bob why is so much attention given to DeAndre Jordan? thought you said it was the start of a new era and centers aren't needed anymore?

cow,

For the same reason people talk about the last of the Mohicans or the "age of the dinosaurs". They're not common. Why are they not common? It's not because the athletes have gotten smaller. It's because the game has changed. Screens are now being set 30'-35' away from the basket on spread pnrs. We never saw that back in the '80s. The idea of "breaking a point guard loose" 35' from the basket made no sense back then. If pure centers were considered such a required commodity then why is "center" no longer an option on the all-star ballot? How many legit pure centers are there now, players that can only play one position? Jordan, Howard, Pekovic, the Lopezs, Hibbert, Chandler. Anybody else? Not Gobert, not on offense, he's too physically weak to bang. The only reason Gobert is in the league is because his absolutely freakish length lets him get pushed underneath but still have enough to reach up and impact the shot. Horford and Noah could play PF. Noel is an Amir Johnson type (Embiid doesn't count since he has never laced up an NBA sneaker, and maybe never will. We'll wait to see how well Okafur adapts tothe NBA game). Valanciunas? He could play PF too. Cousins wants to play PF (he has actually said that!). Duncan was/is a 4/5.

Hibbert just got dumped because, in essence, he's too big. Not too tall, too big. Too much of a center. Brook Lopez just signed a max contract because Brooklyn would have been so far beyond screwed if he didn't re-sign with them they wouldn't even be able to see "screwed" from where they would be. I'll bet Milwaukee is looking to dump Pekovic in favor of stringbean Dieng. Chandler signed with Phoenix because Cuban thought he had Jordan but Dallas wasn't much with him neither. If Howard and Jordan lose the playoffs for their teams next year because of their free throw shooting again that will produce an impact on their desirability too. Nobody wants to work their ass off all season to get to the playoffs and then get knocked out because a player you have built your team around is a one-man empty possession machine.

As I have said to you more than once before, I am a fan of east coast smash-mouth basketball. I like my bigs down low, pounding guys into paste and earning trips to the line but I love winning more than I am wedded to any one form of basketball. Win pretty, win ugly, just win baby. Unfortunately, from my perspective, Dirk broke the mold. The day of the stretch 4 (ugh!)and even stretch 5s (ugh-squared!) is here. Coaches want the flexibility of being able to move their center out to PF and change, not only the size of their team, but the style of play by having the same players play another position. As Brad said, he doesn't look at players by position, he looks at them as "ball-handlers, wings and bigs". The more variations of "big" a player can play, the more attractive he is to GMs and coaches.

Granted, it's just summer league, but we did a pretty good job of containing 6'11", 270# Jalil Okafur the other day and we don't have a center on our summer league roster. Nobody with the physical capabilities even close to his. We threw various defensive schemes at him that diminished his one-on-one dominance. I see that, backing up what I saw in the playoffs with 6'8" Draymond Green and 6'10" alligator-armed David Lee defending BIG Mozgov, and then exploiting him on the offensive end and I'm seeing something different than what I grew up with.

bob

.

good points, very thorough, seems teams are not discarding bigs like Jordan, Gasol, the Lopez's, Tim Duncan, these guys have no problem getting their deals to stay with their teams. In the draft 2 of the first 3 top picks were still bigs not wings, so as much as the game is changing to open space for players and 3 point shooting, you still need the bigs, or more would get sent away like Hibbert. Are the Clippers better with or without Jordan? the Grizz better or worse with Gasol? the Spurs with or without Duncan? seems despite the new trends teams are not discarding their best bigs, their defensive anchor's, and other teams are still trying to acquire them.

by **rickdavisakaspike** Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:40 am

"Win pretty, win ugly, just win baby."

Beautiful phrase-making, Bob. In terms of writing style and content, it's one of the best posts in a long time. And much as I hate to give credit to that Cretaceous fossil, Cowensaurus, he prompted the post, so, nice job, Cow.

Regarding how the game is changing, here's another observation: There're more talented players in the league now than ever before.

In the inner cities, kids used to play sports according to the seasons, baseball, football, basketball, even track. Now, baseball and football have less participation: too expensive, too many kids required to make a team, too easy a target for troublemakers.

A basketball doesn't cost much and one kid can shoot by himself all day. Professional basketball players are the ultimate heroes to these kids (may the five gods have mercy on us) and the sport represents a way out. If you can't make a rap song, practice your jump shot.

So, where it used to be the league was top heavy with talent, and the superstars were significantly better than their peers, now the talent is spread out across the board. Before, a player could play one or two positions: now, he can play four or five, at least on defense.

There's also the speed and athleticism factor. Just a few years back, there was an influx of speedy, shifty point guards. Now, theye're coming in en masse at every position but center.

Final point: all of the above cries out for a different kind of coaching than in the past. Gone are the days of the coach saying, "Yes Michael. Yes Kobe. Tex, tell 'em how the ball's going to pass through their hands on every play." Except in Cleveland, of course. Everybody sing! Dinosaur James, I got a Dinosaur James, Dinosaur James, oh baby, ooohhh ooohhh ooohhh!

by **bobheckler** Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:06 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:bob why is so much attention given to DeAndre Jordan? thought you said it was the start of a new era and centers aren't needed anymore?

cow,

For the same reason people talk about the last of the Mohicans or the "age of the dinosaurs". They're not common. Why are they not common? It's not because the athletes have gotten smaller. It's because the game has changed. Screens are now being set 30'-35' away from the basket on spread pnrs. We never saw that back in the '80s. The idea of "breaking a point guard loose" 35' from the basket made no sense back then. If pure centers were considered such a required commodity then why is "center" no longer an option on the all-star ballot? How many legit pure centers are there now, players that can only play one position? Jordan, Howard, Pekovic, the Lopezs, Hibbert, Chandler. Anybody else? Not Gobert, not on offense, he's too physically weak to bang. The only reason Gobert is in the league is because his absolutely freakish length lets him get pushed underneath but still have enough to reach up and impact the shot. Horford and Noah could play PF. Noel is an Amir Johnson type (Embiid doesn't count since he has never laced up an NBA sneaker, and maybe never will. We'll wait to see how well Okafur adapts tothe NBA game). Valanciunas? He could play PF too. Cousins wants to play PF (he has actually said that!). Duncan was/is a 4/5.

Hibbert just got dumped because, in essence, he's too big. Not too tall, too big. Too much of a center. Brook Lopez just signed a max contract because Brooklyn would have been so far beyond screwed if he didn't re-sign with them they wouldn't even be able to see "screwed" from where they would be. I'll bet Milwaukee is looking to dump Pekovic in favor of stringbean Dieng. Chandler signed with Phoenix because Cuban thought he had Jordan but Dallas wasn't much with him neither. If Howard and Jordan lose the playoffs for their teams next year because of their free throw shooting again that will produce an impact on their desirability too. Nobody wants to work their ass off all season to get to the playoffs and then get knocked out because a player you have built your team around is a one-man empty possession machine.

As I have said to you more than once before, I am a fan of east coast smash-mouth basketball. I like my bigs down low, pounding guys into paste and earning trips to the line but I love winning more than I am wedded to any one form of basketball. Win pretty, win ugly, just win baby. Unfortunately, from my perspective, Dirk broke the mold. The day of the stretch 4 (ugh!)and even stretch 5s (ugh-squared!) is here. Coaches want the flexibility of being able to move their center out to PF and change, not only the size of their team, but the style of play by having the same players play another position. As Brad said, he doesn't look at players by position, he looks at them as "ball-handlers, wings and bigs". The more variations of "big" a player can play, the more attractive he is to GMs and coaches.

Granted, it's just summer league, but we did a pretty good job of containing 6'11", 270# Jalil Okafur the other day and we don't have a center on our summer league roster. Nobody with the physical capabilities even close to his. We threw various defensive schemes at him that diminished his one-on-one dominance. I see that, backing up what I saw in the playoffs with 6'8" Draymond Green and 6'10" alligator-armed David Lee defending BIG Mozgov, and then exploiting him on the offensive end and I'm seeing something different than what I grew up with.

bob

.

good points, very thorough, seems teams are not discarding bigs like Jordan, Gasol, the Lopez's, Tim Duncan, these guys have no problem getting their deals to stay with their teams. In the draft 2 of the first 3 top picks were still bigs not wings, so as much as the game is changing to open space for players and 3 point shooting, you still need the bigs, or more would get sent away like Hibbert. Are the Clippers better with or without Jordan? the Grizz better or worse with Gasol? the Spurs with or without Duncan? seems despite the new trends teams are not discarding their best bigs, their defensive anchor's, and other teams are still trying to acquire them.

cow,

Yes, that's because they are rare.

As far as whether the Clips are better with or without Jordan, I don't think that's a legit question. I think a better question would be "would they be better with DeAndre Jordan or with Noah?" Noah could play PF. He has a nice high post game. He is a superior, even elite passer from the high post and he's a good defender. He's not the physical brute Jordan is, he doesn't block shots like Jordan does but he hits his free throws, can hit mid-range jumpshots, runs the floor and doesn't need someone to feed him for a dunk, and only dunks, for his offense.

Tim Duncan is one of, if not the, best in history. Asking if a team would be better or worse without one of the top 50 players of all time is a ridiculous question. If Tim Duncan was the greatest SF in history the Spurs would be worse off without him. Of course. He is NOT a pure center so, if you're trying to prove your point about how a big brute is needed, he's not a good example.

Sure, teams are trying to acquire centers. They are rare. That's my point. If you need to build your team around a unicorn you're not going to ever have a good team. I'm still pointing out that the current World Champions, the Golden State Warriors, beat a team with a better center, a real freaking brute, and they did it by sitting their 7'0", #1 pick in the draft, center and won using speed and shooting.

Jordan and Howard's competition in that series boiled down to who was going to lose the series for their team at the line. Howard won by hitting one or two fritos more than the guy that everybody is drooling over. Specifically, in game 7, Howard was 4-8 from the line and Jordan was 2-7. The Clippers didn't lose by just 2 points, but Jordan became a distinct liability in crunch time, as did Howard. What good is having a player your team is built around if you can't have him on the floor when the game is on the line?

Memphis was losing Koufos, so they were going to keep Gasol. Whether Gasol is worth all the additional money than Koufos is something else.

bob

.

by **worcester** Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:08 am

When are we going to initiate a Golden Keyboard award for the great writers we have posting on this site? Much better reads than are to be found in newspapers. Kudos to you all.

FYI rickdavisakaspike, there are 14 Gods who are comfortably ensconced atop Mt. Olympus. Check out this website: http://www.greek-gods.info/ Note how many of their names curiously start with A, D, or H.

THE OLYMPIAN GODS
Aphrodite

Apollo

Ares

Artemis

Athena

Demeter

Dionysus

Hades

Hephaestus

Hera

Hermes

Hestia

Poseidon

Zeus

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:12 pm

bob

Duncan might not be a pure brute, but he is the Spurs brute and has been their best low post defender for years, since Mr Robinson left. Not only are these above mentioned players rare, they are needed for teams success and hard to replace if they leave, the other options out there are worse. GS may have found a good match up in Finals by leaving Bogut off the floor for Lee and inserting Igoudala in the starting lineup, but for the long grind of the 82 game season and beyond, would that lineup work, would 33 year old Iggy hold up? why don't they just get rid of Bogut? Also Warriors hit a perfect storm of injured teams that were at a disadvantage as Beverly and Motiejunas were injured. Beverly is an all defensive team defender and without him Steph Curry had free rein that series. Cavs lost Love and Kyrie, really like their pick up of Mo Williams, depth is always good. Cavs were a crippled team and Grizz had to play Jeff Green, who killed them he was so BAD.

So yeah small ball, 3 ball won, they hit a perfect storm, but they still had collection of bigs to do enough to neutralize the brutes, so they wouldn't get killed inside, like us most nights....so that they could go all the way to the promised land. Also there is an influx of bigman in this draft, Towns, Okafor, Miles Turner, who I love, Dakari Johnson, and Upshaw, even though he didn't get drafted and some 4-5 stretch players in Porzingis and Kaminsky.

cow

by **Sam** Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:09 am

Good, thoughtful post, Cow.

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:20 am

sam wrote:Good, thoughtful post, Cow.

Sam

sorry, but I had to rip Jeff Green

by **Sam** Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:36 am

But that was just a small part of a post that showed enough analytical objectivity to give everything in it, including the remark about Jeff, a ring of credibility.

Sam

by **worcester** Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:12 am

Excellent analysis Cow. The Warriors did win with the benefit of a perfect storm. I'll be amazed if they repeat.

by **bobheckler** Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:20 am

sam wrote:Good, thoughtful post, Cow.

Sam

I agree. Who are you and what have you done with my friend Cowens?

bob

.

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