Souring on The Ainges

Sorry, but I am souring on the Ainge's!

I believe it is a very unhealthy relationship to have a father and son team in key positions in a basketball organization. Danny Ainge as president has had a mixed record in many areas of basketball personnel.

THE POSITIVES - DANNY AINGE

- Traded Pierce and Garnett at the right time and got a ton of key picks.
- Collected enough tradeable assets to be able to make a trade for Garnett & Allen.

THE NEGATIVES

- Mixed to poor track record in drafting.
- Never drafted the next Celtic super star.
- Mixed to poor trading record. Hey don't say Garnett - that was a gift from McHale. Who did they ever get beyond that
trade that was of material significance to the team long term - Jeff Green?
- Naming Austin Ainge director of player personnel!

I have a big problem with this arrangement. What deep basketball experience does this kid have to justify him getting that title. Let's look:

1) Coached the Maine Red Claws for a season.

2) Ainge performed scouting duties for the Celtics organization. As a part of this position, he worked with Celtics rookies J.R. Giddens and Bill Walker while they were on assignment with the Utah Flash of the NBA Development League.

3) Ainge served a stint as an assistant coach for Southern Utah University where he was responsible for perimeter players, recruiting, player development, video breakdown, and developing game plans. There, he worked under former Phoenix Suns assistant and BYU coach Roger Reid.

4) Prior to coaching, Ainge has a successful basketball career at Brigham Young University.

So how on earth did Ainge hire his son to oversee a vital area in professional basketball with his son's resume. How could he ever fire his son for doing a poor job. To me I have serious reservations as to the future direction of this team given the current hierarchy!

112288

112288,

I'm not totally sanguine about the father/son business relationship either, something like this always looks like nepotism but:

1.  The trade for KG was NOT a gift from McHale.  I posted an article that quotes Timberwolves owner, Glen Taylor, where he says he was the one that talked KG into accepting the trade and NOT McHale.  Can we please put the "Celtics conspiracy" theory to bed?  Glen Taylor, HIMSELF, said it was him.  As far as what other trade of significance, how about Ray Allen?  No former Celtic involved with that one and it brought us KG and #17.

2.  Austin has a lifetime in the business due to who his father is.  If we like Sully and others because of their family pedigree then that counts towards Austin Ainge too.  It's not just his jobs, it's his curriculum vitae.  He has lived basketball since he could bounce one.

3.  Danny has had two draft picks in over 10 years that were in the top half of the draft, #5 in 2007 (which begat Ray Allen which begat KG, NOT McHale) and Marcus Smart.  Either the draft is a crap shoot in which it doesn't matter whether you make the playoffs or the lottery or the draft is key and you want to pick high.  If the draft is key, then how can you blame Danny because he picked below #20 only 4 times in over 10 years (#19 Bradley, #5 to Seattle for Allen, #16 traded up to #13 for Kelly, #6 Smart)?  If a high draft pick is so important it's worth missing the playoffs to get, then how can you blame Danny for not picking the next Celtic superstar when he rarely gets to pick high and if it's his fault for not gutting the team so they cannot win so he can get a high pick would you then blaming him for giving away the store for nothing?  Besides, tanking is the 180 degree exact opposite of what Tommy wants and Tommy knows a few things about building and playing on a winning team in a winning culture.

4.  You give, as one of Danny's negatives, hiring Austin Ainge and is part of your explanation of why you don't like the Ainge/Ainge connection.  That's circular logic.

You don't like/respect Austin, therefore hiring him is a negative.  The reason why you don't like Austin is because you are unimpressed with his resume and his drafting but don't take into account where he has had to pick, which is also a negative of Danny's, because he hired Austin who has had to draft in the middle to late in the draft most of the time and so he can't get a consensus top player but that isn't taken into account but they're failures because they're not drafting superstars.  Round and round and round...


I boil it down to this:

1.  We sucked for 15 years before Danny took over.  When he took over we were the league's door mat.
2.  He said he'd make us a competitive club in 5 years.
3.  5 years later we won a championship.

How he did it is irrelevant.  If it was "old school ties" with McHale (which it wasn't but even if it was) then aren't we lucky having a GM with all those effective "old school ties"?  If it was just luck he drafted Al Jefferson, then aren't we lucky we have a lucky GM (does Big Al count as drafting "the next Celtic superstar?  No Jefferson then, Ray Allen or no Ray Allen, no KG)?  If Danny can build competitive teams without having to rely upon the annual NBA crap shoot aren't we lucky to have such a successful trader as a GM?

It took Danny 5 years to take us from door mat to champion.  Maybe that was because of a perfect storm of fortuitous events, but it happened and it happened because of him.  We are about to start the 3rd year of another rebuild.  If building a champion in 5 years was just luck and conspiracy then how can we be impatient because he hasn't done it again in less than 3 years?  Now that the initial free agent feeding frenzy is passed the time for trading will begin.  We have about 2 1/2 months until camp opens.  Danny didn't get Zeller until 7/10 last year, so 7/5 is quite early.  The Lakers are out of the DeMarcus Cousins sweepstakes and the Kings have just signed their 3rd center.  The Sixers are up to their eyeballs in bigs but need guards.  The smoke is starting to clear and the battlefield is become more clear, not less.


bob


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112288 me and you both

well free agency is about over, looks like we whiffed on that....unless you think Amir Johnson is gonna become something special.

You say "souring" as in present tense, but your list of "positives" for Ainge ends in 2007.

Not sure who you're trying to kid.

Maybe you would have preferred Danny not trade KG and Pierce for a boat load of draft picks.

Maybe you wish Danny had kept them, even though they were clearly on the steep decline. Maybe you think he should have packaged as many future first rounders as possible, add a Rodney Rodgers type, and make one last run at a title like the Nets did when they traded for PP and KG.

Maybe you opposed Danny getting a first rounder out of Doc Rivers, while upgrading his head coach significantly, and at a fraction of the money Doc was making.

Maybe you oppose Danny getting Tyler Zeller and IT4 for free basically. Perhaps they're not your kind of player

Because you sure didn't list any of these moves as "positives".

rambone good move getting the picks for KG and Pierce.

IT can look good against weak teams and have good moments then get shutdown in the playoffs which is why Ainge went for more PG help in the draft.

Zeller....please, good hands, but if he's your best defensive big, your in big trouble on the floor and need a major upgrade at the position.

Bottomline were in the same position we were 2 years ago, no center when Danny passed on Gobert for some girl looking soft player with girlie hair.

I understand he whiffed on Melo, but how can he be so gunshy to draft a 5 and then get so many redundant guard types?

We're not anything like two years ago, and if you can't tell the difference, you're probably not the GM material you think you are, oldschool.

rambone 112288 did in fact list getting the draft picks for PP and KG as a positive.

It's not like either of you would have hired Brad Stevens. Not in a million years.

How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big? I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises. He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45. There was no downside.

cowens/oldschool wrote:rambone 112288 did in fact list getting the draft picks for PP and KG as a positive.

Ok, then I apologize. It wasn't listed under Danny Ainge's "positives" so I stopped reading.

My bad 112288

rambone so if we had Gobert instead of KO, we woudn't be better?

rambone wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:rambone 112288 did in fact list getting the draft picks for PP and KG as a positive.

Ok, then I apologize. It wasn't listed under Danny Ainge's "positives" so I stopped reading.

My bad 112288

maybe your not GM material either? learn to read

steve3344 wrote:How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big?  I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises.  He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45.  There was no downside.

ditto

My positive ends in 2014 with the trdae of Garnett and Pierce to Brooklyn, with many negatives!

112288

Steven's move will only be qualified in the next 2 years.

112288

cowens/oldschool wrote:

steve3344 wrote:How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big?  I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises.  He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45.  There was no downside.

ditto

And it's especially annoying that it will be the Lakers who will benefit if he turns out to be a gem.

112288 bet you loved the KO pick LOL.

steve3344 wrote:How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big?  I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises.  He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45.  There was no downside.

Plenty of downside. Upshaw had red flags with his heart health, probably because of drug use. And he didn't even swear off drugs, he actually said that he told G.M.s that "mistakes will be made."

That's like drafting a guy who likes to play Russian Roulette, and who tells you "mistakes will be made".

Also, Zeller is better than some of you realize. I get that you prefer a defensive center over an offensive center, but Zeller is really efficient offensively, and he's still getting better. And his defense isn't terrible. So he's an average center, and we got him for free.

Look at Robin Lopez, a guy who is no better overall than Zeller, even though he is better defensively. Lopez and defensive centers like him without offensive skills do major damage to their team's offense, even though you can't see it from reading a box score.

Lopez just got 14-15 million a year or something, while Zeller gets like 3 million.

Just imagine this team last year without Zeller... A center no better than he is would have cost 12-15 million, and that's if you get lucky and they choose Boston, which we all know rarely happens.

It's easy to complain about players, until you actually have to replace them, at which point you realize the grass isn't always greener.

steve3344 wrote:How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big?  I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises.  He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45.  There was no downside.

Wrong. There's a reason the Celtics sucked every time Rondo was on the court, and there's a reason why the Celtics always played better when he was injured and away from the team, or at least not playing and practicing.

Chemistry is so much more important than most fans realize, we just don't hear about most team chemistry problems until much later, if ever, because everybody reads from the same script when they talk to the media.

rambone wrote:

steve3344 wrote:How much more excited would we be if we were soon going to be checking out the potential of Robert Upshaw this summer considering our glaring need for an athletic big?  I know every team passed on him with his baggage but I wanted us to be the team to see if we could help him get his head screwed on right and overcome his past indiscretions (and recent health scare) and see if he can be that talented late second round pick that surprises.  He was worth at least that when he was available to us at #45.  There was no downside.

Plenty of downside. Upshaw had red flags with his heart health, probably because of drug use. And he didn't even swear off drugs, he actually said that he told G.M.s that "mistakes will be made."

That's like drafting a guy who likes to play Russian Roulette, and who tells you "mistakes will be made".

Also, Zeller is better than some of you realize. I get that you prefer a defensive center over an offensive center, but Zeller is really efficient offensively, and he's still getting better. And his defense isn't terrible. So he's an average center, and we got him for free.

Look at Robin Lopez, a guy who is no better overall than Zeller, even though he is better defensively. Lopez and defensive centers like him without offensive skills do major damage to their team's offense, even though you can't see it from reading a box score.

Lopez just got 14-15 million a year or something, while Zeller gets like 3 million.

Just imagine this team last year without Zeller... A center no better than he is would have cost 12-15 million, and that's if you get lucky and they choose Boston, which we all know rarely happens.

It's easy to complain about players, until you actually have to replace them, at which point you realize the grass isn't always greener.

"Plenty of downside"??? Let's see how much production we get out of Marcus Thornton, who we picked at 45, either by him playing for us (a longshot) or what we could ever get for him in a trade. There was very little downside in my opinion. When was the last time a player drafted that low actually became anything of significance for the Celtics?

History has shown you can win without an offensive dominant big at the 5, however you can't win night in and night out in the NBA without a dominant defensive 5.

Oldschool, if Upshaw dropped dead on the basketball court, the media would crucify Ainge, Brad, and Celtics ownership. They'd say, "this is the third time" a Celtic dropped dead.

They'd say, "there were so many warning signs", etc etc.
Or what if he goes Aaron Hernandez? Think about the damage that case did to the Patriots as a franchise.

Then there's the laziness of Upshaw, which Brad, being quite possibly the best developmental basketball coach in the world, knew would be a very bad influence on young Celtics like James Young and other young guys.

You don't build a winning culture with losers. Sully was under the influence of Rondo and Green, both who had quit on the team long before they were traded. How did those guys rub off on Sully? He gained like 20 lbs, right in the middle of the season.

Also, Danny didn't draft Upshaw, but he drafted literally the next best thing as far as shot blocking, in Jordan Mickey.

You can get rim protection from positions other than center, especially when you're blessed with two talented offensive centers. Getting our rim protection from PF in Mickey and Amir Johnson is going to work out just fine, and as i've said before, our defense wasn't even the problem last year. The team's biggest weakness was the offense of the starting five, and Ainge addressed that in Rozier.

cowens/oldschool wrote:History has shown you can win without an offensive dominant big at the 5, however you can't win night in and night out in the NBA without a dominant defensive 5.

Cow,

Golden State, 2015. Bogut sat,
San Antonio Spurs. 2014. Splitter isn't a great individual defender.
Miami Heat, 2013. Bosh, an offensive-oriented toothpick.

There's 3 out of the last 3 champions.

How far back in history do we have to go before we can claim what history proves, and then keep marching backwards from there? This is a different league. Howard and Jordan, with strong teams supporting them, lost.


bob



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rambone wrote:Oldschool, if Upshaw dropped dead on the basketball court, the media would crucify Ainge, Brad, and Celtics ownership. They'd say, "this is the third time" a Celtic dropped dead.

They'd say, "there were so many warning signs", etc etc.
Or what if he goes Aaron Hernandez? Think about the damage that case did to the Patriots as a franchise.

Then there's the laziness of Upshaw, which Brad, being quite possibly the best developmental basketball coach in the world, knew would be a very bad influence on young Celtics like James Young and other young guys.

You don't build a winning culture with losers. Sully was under the influence of Rondo and Green, both who had quit on the team long before they were traded. How did those guys rub off on Sully? He gained like 20 lbs, right in the middle of the season.

Also, Danny didn't draft Upshaw, but he drafted literally the next best thing as far as shot blocking, in Jordan Mickey.

You can get rim protection from positions other than center, especially when you're blessed with two talented offensive centers. Getting our rim protection from PF in Mickey and Amir Johnson is going to work out just fine, and as i've said before, our defense wasn't even the problem last year. The team's biggest weakness was the offense of the starting five, and Ainge addressed that in Rozier.

Rambine,

Excellent point about being able to get shot blocking and rim protection from positions other than center.


bob


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