Souring on The Ainges

Thanks, gyso.  No one does it like you do.  Seriously!

Sam

Will Rondo be a Hall of Famer? Too early to tell, but for six years he played like one. Danny has had only 2 decent chances at drafting low. With one he picked Jeff Green whom he traded for Ray Allen, a sure to be H of F'er. With the other he picked Marcus Smart. Too early to see what brcomes of him. Criticize Danny if you must, but not for failing to draft a H of F'er.

I hope my sarcasm was understood, worcester. Danny has some harsh critics around here, and only hall of famers will please them.

I personally think Smart has clear-cut HOF potential. He's a rare leader, and way more team oriented than Rondo.

Smart has been handling the drafting of Rozier, Hunter, and Thornton extremely well.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:History has shown you can win without an offensive dominant big at the 5, however you can't win night in and night out in the NBA without a dominant defensive 5.

Cow,

Golden State, 2015.  Bogut sat,
San Antonio Spurs. 2014.  Splitter isn't a great individual defender.
Miami Heat, 2013.  Bosh, an offensive-oriented  toothpick.

There's 3 out of the last 3 champions.

How far back in history do we have to go before we can claim what history proves, and then keep marching backwards from there?  This is a different league.  Howard and Jordan, with strong teams supporting them, lost.


bob



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we can go back and fourth on this all day long.

Bogut sat for the last games of the Finals, but they don't get close to that seeding without his services during the nightly day in-day out grind of the regular season and to the Finals as Sam pointed out on another thread. Right now San Antonio just got the most prized free agent and is the favorite to win the title, they got bigger and younger and more skilled. GS didn't just win by small ball, they had a really deep bench and rim protection when needed, depending on the match up.

Cowens,

Apparently we are going to go back and forth on this all day long until we get our facts straight.

GSW didn't have a 7 game series the entire playoffs, so that extra home game their playoff seeding gave them was never needed.  So, whatever role Bogut played during the regular season to get that season was a "nice to have" but not a "need to have".  Furthermore, Bogut only averaged 24mpg during the season, so he only played rotation player minutes, not starter minutes.  He also only played 67 games.  They "didn't just win by small ball"?  So, that means they did win with small ball.  Yes, they had a good bench, but not at the center position.  Maurice "Mo' Buckets" Speights is not a defensive player and he only played 6.7mpg during the playoffs.  David Lee is alligator-armed like Kelly (except without Kelly's shooting range, passing and ball-handling) and he only averaged 8.2mpg. Ezeli only played 9.2mpg. Who is this rim protector you're talking about, if not Bogut?  Who kept LeBron from the rim?  Who kept Tristan Thompson off the rim?  Who kept Mozgov off the rim?  Kyrie and Love were out and neither of them are rim protectors nor centers.  GSW didn't win because of their bigs.

What does San Antonio landing Aldridge have to do with them winning the championship 2 years ago?  The question here is "do you need a physically dominating shot-blocking/intimidating center to win the championship?".  He wasn't on the team then.  Duncan had a grand total of 4 blocks and Splitter had 2 blocks.  That's total, over a 5 game series.  6 blocks by their starting center and power forward with their center only getting 2 of them.  The Spurs won because of ball movement and the stellar 2-way play of their small forward/wing Kawhi Leonard and NOT because they had a physically punishing defensive center.

Pop has a helluva good thing going there down in San Antonio.  He is unique in the league.  Unless you have a plan to lure Pop away from San Antonio then let's compare Danny to other GMs and that includes their swing-and-misses too.  When you talk about how Danny missed by not taking Gobert and never mention anybody else's misses you miss the fundamental point which is that the draft is a crap shoot and not just for Danny.  And oh, isn't it interesting that Utah didn't need to get a top 3 pick (and have a horrible season to get it) to get Gobert.  Apparently, tanking isn't necessary after all.  And suppose Gobert spindly little body breaks down in a couple of years because he's not built for the wars underneath or because he played too many minutes when he was young and his joints hadn't grown out first (ask Dr. Worcester about that!), then what?  Will someone say "well, at least we didn't waste a high draft pick on him"?


bob


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Bob and Rambone, I couldn't agree with you guys more.

Meanwhile I think the 2015-16 Celts will shock the NBA with their aggressive D and speedy O.

Bob, I'm in the middle in this debate, or to paraphrase Sam: ask me later when we see how it works out. Like some, I am tired of the Celtics being undersized and trying to Mikki Moore their way through the season. We're all homers here, so I think we'd love to give DA the benefit of the doubt. It was that way with Doc, too, at first, but after repeated let-downs, some of us, me included, joined the fire Doc movement.
I'm not nearly there with DA or AA, although if we barely make the playoffs again, I may subscribe to a different kind of AA.
I do take issue with the draft described as a "crap shoot" however as a way to minimize mistaken picks or underestimate the importance of drafting position. Is the draft a sure thing? No. We can all list top picks who failed. But on the board we have repeatedly seen that higher picks have a much better success rate than lower picks. What better evidence of the importance of lottery position than Danny's offer of multiple picks (and Jordan's refusal) for a chance to move up? I know the reluctance to accept the importance of drafting position is directly related to the obvious and unpalatable tactic for improving drafting position: deliberately fielding a weak team.
I don't think we've done that this off season and maybe we've done as well as Rambone suggests. We get our first glimpse tonight! Hawk

bob I don't know what your watching, but Duncan's defense was great when they beat Miami last year, you can be a great defender without being elite at shotblocking, Dave Cowens and Rick Mahorn come to mind. Duncan still stopped alot of shots from going in by challenging the shooting hand and forcing the offensive player to alter their shot and Bogut had alot of key blocks and challenged shots as well through their run.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Bob, I'm in the middle in this debate, or to paraphrase Sam: ask me later when we see how it works out. Like some, I am tired of the Celtics being undersized and trying to Mikki Moore their way through the season. We're all homers here, so I think we'd love to give DA the benefit of the doubt. It was that way with Doc, too, at first, but after repeated let-downs, some of us, me included, joined the fire Doc movement.
  I'm not nearly there with DA or AA, although if we barely make the playoffs again, I may subscribe to a different kind of AA.
  I do take issue with the draft described as a "crap shoot" however as a way to minimize mistaken picks or underestimate the importance of drafting position. Is the draft a sure thing? No. We can all list top picks who failed. But on the board we have repeatedly seen that higher picks have a much better success rate than lower picks. What better evidence of the importance of lottery position than  Danny's offer of multiple picks (and Jordan's refusal) for a chance to move up? I know the reluctance to accept the importance of drafting position is directly related to the obvious and unpalatable tactic for improving drafting position: deliberately fielding a weak team.
  I don't think we've done that this off season and maybe we've done as well as Rambone suggests. We get our first glimpse tonight! Hawk
 

hawk,

MJ's refusal to take Danny's offer might be because of the same reason he his team, which he became the GM in 2006, has only been in the playoffs twice in 10 years and lost in the first round both times.  He was a great, great player but is a dilletante as a GM and owner.  In short, he knows how to lead a team and how grind opponents into paste but he doesn't know how to build a team.

Let's wait until Frank Kaminsky laces up a pair of NBA sneakers before we decide on whether Danny's offer was weak or MJ was just being MJ.


bob


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Danny must be working on something. So far both the Lakers and Knicks have made upgrades to their starting lineups while Danny basically is paying more money for rotation players.

Looks like no one wants to play for the Celtics. This was apparent once Rondo and Green were traded. There is no high profile person to entice a free agent to even visit for a free dinner.

This is what happens when you have a young coach that does not have the ability to get a good player to sign.

Dboss

what about that playoff run? that supposedly proved were an up and coming team that free agents would want to play for.....NOT

cowens/oldschool wrote:what about that playoff run? that supposedly proved were an up and coming team that free agents would want to play for.....NOT

As opposed to sucking so badly you can't even make the playoffs in the lousy EC being a draw for free agents? Do you really think that would have worked better? Don't tell me that getting a good draft pick would draw them, high quality veterans aren't impressed with untested rookies. Did you notice all the high quality free agents that signed with Philly this off-season? Lord knows they've got tons of talent...on paper.

Either we kept Rondo, and had a shot at good free agents, or we didn't. Once it became clear that Rondo was going to shop himself around with no loyalty (and possibly lost some of his game) it made sense to move him and once that happened the nature of the rebuild changed.

Besides, which high quality free agent do you think would come here? LaMarcus Aldridge, another PF? Many of the top free agents are staying put, like LeBron and Love and DWade and Anthony Davis. Who did we miss out on that we really wanted? Robin Lopez and Koufos. That's it, and they were considered "so hot" they were in the 2nd, maybe even 3rd, wave of free agent signings. Who else makes you drool? For what we need there weren't many.


bob



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Maybe if we actually won a game.

dboss wrote:Maybe if we actually won a game.

dboss,

Maybe.  Does losing in 4 straight to a team that made it to the finals, and competed in all 4 games, when they were healthy (as opposed to when they played GSW and were missing both Love and Irving) look worse to a free agent compared to sucking SO BAD we couldn't even make the playoffs in the horribly weak EC?  Do you think only winning 25 games again in 2014 would make high quality free agents' eyes light up?  Names please.

Once again, I ask, WHICH FREE AGENT DID YOU WANT THAT WE HAD A LEGITIMATE SHOT AT?  The only two I can think of are Robin Lopez and Koufos.  I cannot explain why Lopez would go to NYK (except maybe to be able to hang out with his twin brother.  They played together at Stanford) but Koufos went to Sacto because they have Cousins and Rondo and Gay.  In other words, they've got a decent roster that is primed to go.  

TO ALL THE COMPLAINERS WHO WANT TO KNOW WHY DANNY DIDN'T SIGN A HIGH PROFILE FREE AGENT, PLEASE PROVIDE A NAME OF ONE THAT WE HAD A REAL SHOT AT THAT YOU WANTED.  LaMarcus Aldridge was NEVER going to come here.  Never.  We don't have a screaming need for a player playing his position and he knows it.  He knew that Tim Duncan is in his last year and so next year the team would be his.  Anybody else?  Names please.

We got a defensive player in Johnson.  Isn't that what we've been calling for?  Everybody is saying "center, center, center".  Why center?  We need a defensive presence in the middle.  If Johnson can fill that role then we made progress.  If he can't then he's a 1 year rental in just year 3 of a 5 year rebuild (assuming he isn't traded mid-year).  Other than Lopez and Koufos who would fit that bill better than Johnson?  Names please.

I'm going say this, right here, right now, that if Danny pulls off a coup later this off-season or later in the next season I am going to be laughing my ass off at all the Chicken Littles bemoaning the falling sky less than 1 week after the opening of free agency.  When will all you people learn that Danny NEVER sleeps.


bob


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It must suck to be a dinosaur. 'Bring back the old days. Nothing these days is ever good enough. It's always better to live in the past. Bring back the ways things used to be, even if things didn't used to be that way.'

(Sarcasm alert) This board seems to have more dinosaurs than Jurassic World. Cowensaurus, Dbossiraptor. Help! Runnnnn!

Danny (who won a championship as GM - does that count at all?) did two things with this past draft. He put into effect two sayings that are not quite old: 1) if you can't get what you want, get what you can. and 2) if you can't win, change the game.

Because the game is changing. THE GAME IS CHANGING. Three point shots are making a huge difference in the way the game is played. It's the same as when the jump shot entered the game in the '40s and '50s. It's taken a while, but it's happening. Also, now there's defense from every position, and players who can defend every position. The dinosaurs can't even see it. Hell, the Warriors made Lebron look like a dinosaur toward the end.

Anybody criticizing the draft is just flat out wrong. Danny plugged a hole with Rozier. Speedy, shifty guards, like Irving, hurt this team last year, even with Smart and Bradley on defense. Now we have our own speedy, shifty guard who apparently also loves to play defense.

Hunter and Mickey also seem to plug holes, outside shooting, blocking shots. And James Young is going to take the league by storm next season. It's actually starting to look like a well-rounded team - oops, except without that rim job, excuse me, rim protector the dinosaurs keep howling for.

Sorry, dinosaurs, but you're going to regret all these negative waves. This new Celtics team is going to be more fun than last year, more exciting. They're going to need a nickname, that's how good they're going to be. And I just thought one up: the Boston Bombers.

Maybe not.

In any case there is a reason why we did not get a sniff of good free agent.

Amir is good but is more of a lateral move.

In absence of a big time trade this team is worse than last year as compared to other teams in the East and West.

The vision may be there but the ability of mgt to execute is in doubt.

Dboss

The problem is that many teams just made MUCH bigger advances in terms of talent than we did, both in their advantage of drafting higher that we did and in signing more significant free agents (not that I held out much hope of us doing that). For example, Miami has around five players better than ANYONE we have on our team. Other teams have two, three or four better than anyone on our roster. Who is our best player? Who is our go-to guy? In absence of some major trade we are going to have to seriously over-achieve just to win 40 games again and sneak into the playoffs and getting a mediocre pick again.

Treading water is giving guys like Greg Monroe or Tobias Harris max contracts, and then coming up way short of a championship until the next rebuild.

Luck is when preparation meets opportunity, and every championship team got a little lucky...

steve3344 wrote:The problem is that many teams just made MUCH bigger advances in terms of talent than we did, both in their advantage of drafting higher that we did and in signing more significant free agents (not that I held out much hope of us doing that).  For example, Miami has around five players better than ANYONE we have on our team.  Other teams have two, three or four better than anyone on our roster.  Who is our best player?  Who is our go-to guy?  In absence of some major trade we are going to have to seriously over-achieve just to win 40 games again and sneak into the playoffs and getting a mediocre pick again.

This team didn't shatter your expectations last year by riding the coattails of a big star.

And they'll do it again this year. 47-52 wins.

You might as well see it coming.

rambone wrote:

steve3344 wrote:The problem is that many teams just made MUCH bigger advances in terms of talent than we did, both in their advantage of drafting higher that we did and in signing more significant free agents (not that I held out much hope of us doing that).  For example, Miami has around five players better than ANYONE we have on our team.  Other teams have two, three or four better than anyone on our roster.  Who is our best player?  Who is our go-to guy?  In absence of some major trade we are going to have to seriously over-achieve just to win 40 games again and sneak into the playoffs and getting a mediocre pick again.

This team didn't shatter your expectations last year by riding the coattails of a big star.

And they'll do it again this year. 47-52 wins.

You might as well see it coming.

Last year I posted a detailed account of around 6 wins we got in the last couple of months against teams that had MAJOR injuries. And our last two gift wins against Cleveland were when they wanted to lose to us to guarantee they met us in the first round of the playoffs instead of playing ANYONE else. Our record in the second half of last season (that projected to 50-55 wins over a full season) was not real. As presently constituted this is not a 47-52 win team. Not with what a lot of other teams did that we have to beat. Remember, I said as PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED. Danny could still pull off a major deal by packaging a bunch of picks and players for an impact player. I will wait and see.

steve3344 wrote:The problem is that many teams just made MUCH bigger advances in terms of talent than we did, both in their advantage of drafting higher that we did and in signing more significant free agents (not that I held out much hope of us doing that).  For example, Miami has around five players better than ANYONE we have on our team.  Other teams have two, three or four better than anyone on our roster.  Who is our best player?  Who is our go-to guy?  In absence of some major trade we are going to have to seriously over-achieve just to win 40 games again and sneak into the playoffs and getting a mediocre pick again.

Miami already had better personel than us before the draft, now they got Winslow, who looks like a future all star swingman. We had the 6th pick at the all star break, woulda been nice to get a Winslow or Miles Turner.

I don't see Boston being more than a .500 team next season unless they make a significant trade.
Many of the dreadful teams in the East have added significant talent this offseason, mainly through the draft.
Orlando, Charlotte and Miami should be much better.
When you look at Boston's roster, most teams in the NBA have 1, 2, or 3 players better than Boston's best player.
That does not guarantee success, but it does help.
Also, Boston was quite healthy last season compared to other teams.
Boston didn't lose any players to a season ending injury.
Some missed a number of games as that always happen, but Boston didn't lose key players to injury for an extended period of time.

tjmakz wrote:I don't see Boston being more than a .500 team next season unless they make a significant trade.
Many of the dreadful teams in the East have added significant talent this offseason, mainly through the draft.
Orlando, Charlotte and Miami should be much better.
When you look at Boston's roster, most teams in the NBA have 1, 2, or 3 players better than Boston's best player.
That does not guarantee success, but it does help.
Also, Boston was quite healthy last season compared to other teams.
Boston didn't lose any players to a season ending injury.
Some missed a number of games as that always happen, but Boston didn't lose key players to injury for an extended period of time.

Even the Knicks who added Robin Lopez, Prozingas and others will not win 17 games again next year. Probably around 30-35 and will be stiffer competition. Other teams made similar improvements. We didn't do much of anything. So far.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

steve3344 wrote:The problem is that many teams just made MUCH bigger advances in terms of talent than we did, both in their advantage of drafting higher that we did and in signing more significant free agents (not that I held out much hope of us doing that).  For example, Miami has around five players better than ANYONE we have on our team.  Other teams have two, three or four better than anyone on our roster.  Who is our best player?  Who is our go-to guy?  In absence of some major trade we are going to have to seriously over-achieve just to win 40 games again and sneak into the playoffs and getting a mediocre pick again.

Miami already had better personel than us before the draft, now they got Winslow, who looks like a future all star swingman. We had the 6th pick at the all star break, woulda been nice to get a Winslow or Miles Turner.

Cow,


Yeah, Miami was a MUCH better team than us last year.  That's why we made the playoffs and they didn't.   As long as they have the better team on paper that's all that matters. Why bother playing the games at all?  Just add up the PERs, net out the +/- and total all-star appearances and there's your winner.  


TJ,  

Injuries are part of the game.   We were doing pretty damn well in the Finals in, I think, 2010 until we had a season-ending injury in game 6.  That is why you have a well-developed bench.  You cannot fully replace some players but you're supposed to try to not slide all the way downhill.  Everybody has injuries.   Winners prepare for them, minimize their loss (e.g. Delly for Irving and Thompson for Love) and just hope they don't happen at the worst possible times.   You say that Cleveland threw the last few games to us?  Well, Indy, Charlotte and Miami sure didn't and it was those head-to-head wins that knocked them out and got us in.

OKC almost made the playoffs, would have made then in the east, and they lost Durant and Ibaka. Injuries are part of the game. The last third of the roster aren't just practice players and cheerleaders.


bob


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steve3344 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:I don't see Boston being more than a .500 team next season unless they make a significant trade.
Many of the dreadful teams in the East have added significant talent this offseason, mainly through the draft.
Orlando, Charlotte and Miami should be much better.
When you look at Boston's roster, most teams in the NBA have 1, 2, or 3 players better than Boston's best player.
That does not guarantee success, but it does help.
Also, Boston was quite healthy last season compared to other teams.
Boston didn't lose any players to a season ending injury.
Some missed a number of games as that always happen, but Boston didn't lose key players to injury for an extended period of time.

Even the Knicks who added Robin Lopez, Prozingas and others will not win 17 games again next year.  Probably around 30-35 and will be stiffer competition.  Other teams made similar improvements.  We didn't do much of anything.  So far.

Aaron Afflalo is also a definite upgrade at SG for New York.
With the Knicks not having their 1st round pick in 2016, there will be no temptation to tank or rebuild for the future as they did this summer.

Steve wrote:Our record in the second half of last season (that projected to 50-55 wins over a full season) was not real. As presently constituted this is not a 47-52 win team. Not with what a lot of other teams did that we have to beat.

This team that played so well the second half of the season played great from the start. Imagine how well they will play with a full summer and preseason together to really iron things out.

But more importantly than gaining that familiarity, this was about the youngest roster in the league last year. This team will naturally play like they gained a Greg Monroe or Tobias Harris, just by virtue of everybody improving a little bit.

Every young player will improve at least a little bit, and collectively that makes a big difference that isn't as easily identified as a big free agent signing.

Similarly, we didn't have a top 10 draft pick, but we did have more picks than just about everybody, and got solid-great value for at least 3 of those picks.

You're about to find out that Jordan Mickey isn't just a fraction of WCS, he's more like 90-95% of WCS.

Similarly, Rozier is 95-105% the player that Emanuel Mudiay is, and he might be better than Reggie Jackson already. Jackson just signed a 15 mil/per contract.

And RJ Hunter will make an impact as well.

This team improved in a lot of sneaky, under-the-radar type ways, and with no Rondo around, this team will not be opening the season with a big dropping of suck.