Celts want Kyrie

fierce wrote:

kdp59 wrote:only 4 players on the roster from last season now, by my count.

Last year's team was not a legit contender.

This current Celtics roster right now is a legit contender.

Obviously Danny felt that wasy as well..but you have to admit that is a LOT of turnover for any playoff team.

Here's what Ainge said.

“Kyrie is one of the best scorers in the NBA. He has proven that on the biggest stage, the NBA Finals, the last three years,” said Celtics President of Basketball Operations Danny Ainge. “He’s been an NBA Champion, an Olympic Gold Medalist, and a four-time All-Star. For all he’s accomplished, we think his best years are ahead of him.” – via NBA.com

I need to go find a safe place for my head to explode..

kdp59 wrote:

fierce wrote:

kdp59 wrote:only 4 players on the roster from last season now, by my count.

Last year's team was not a legit contender.

This current Celtics roster right now is a legit contender.

Obviously Danny felt that wasy as well..but you have to admit that is a LOT of turnover for any  playoff team.

It's only a lot because of the Brooklyn pick.

But if you think about it, IT might leave the Cavs next summer if Lebron leaves.
That leaves the Cavs getting Crowder, Zizic, and the Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.

Also, I believe the Celts would have not given up that much if IT didn't have an injury.

I meant that is a lot of player turnover.

but I agree that without the Nets picks the trade is a no brainer for everyone/

Much of how this trade ultimately grades out depends on what the Brooklyn pick becomes.

If it's 1-6 (with Bagley III now in the draft) it is VERY risky play by Danny, especially if Irving barely moves the needle vs. his old team in this year's ECF and against the Warriors in the 2019 NBA finals, then opts out and wants 5 years 200 million the summer before Hayward can do and ask for the same thing.

Talent wise, this definitely makes the Celtics better this season.

A 53 win team experts/analytics say played more like 48-50 win a season ago and was one of the weakest #1 seeds of all-time was probably facing an up-hill battle to get to 60 wins, especially with all of the turnover. Yes, there is even more roster upheaval now, but roles are more defined and if they (and the fans) can put aside who they lost from that locker room the chance to be elite was just increased.

Next years Nets pick sure looks to me like it could be a top 3 pick - plus the Celtic are now short 4 players that were very effective scorers last year ( Bradley, Thomas, Crowder, and Olynyk ) with EFG'S OF .533, .546, .572, AND .579 - replaced by Irving, .534 and Haywood, .536 - thats an awful lot riding on the expectations of the youthful pups for picking up the slack next year - especially in a league that is very much dominated by teams that excel in high shooting percentages. Are there more changes coming ?

swish

This trade has a very 2007 Ray trade feel to it only with younger players involved and the fate of the draft pick unknown.

Wally (IT), Delonte (Jae) and the 5th pick (Jeff Green) went to Seattle for Ray (Kyrie) and Big Baby. C's get only the star back, they actually give up a young big in Zizic instead of getting one.

But you can see my point. A deal that involved a highly thought of draft pick (despite it not landing top 2) and clearly the much better player in Ray vs. Wally. Kyrie and IT are closer in talent than those two, although coming off dub ankle surgery at age 32 it was a little closer than people remember it, but still it is a good comparison to be make. That trade made little sense if just meant to turn a bottom 5 team into a defensively challenged middle of the pack one still towing the youth vs. veteran line. But once the KG trade was made the Ray one made sense.

IT for Irving made sense once the Celtics drafted Tatum, signed Hayward and fully moved past looking 3-4 years down the line and wanted to mix it up with Golden State now.

LOTS of pressure on Kyrie.

And that Nets pick really, REALLY needs to fall outside the top 6.

swish wrote:Next years Nets pick sure looks to me like it could be a top 3 pick - plus the Celtic are now short 4 players that were very effective scorers last year ( Bradley, Thomas, Crowder, and Olynyk ) with EFG'S OF .533, .546, .572, AND .579 - replaced by Irving, .534 and Haywood, .536 - thats an awful lot riding on the expectations of the youthful pups for picking up the slack next year - especially in a league that is very much dominated by teams that excel in high shooting percentages. Are there more changes coming ?

  swish

The league is dominated by superstars

You trade IT, Bradley, Crowder and Olynyk for Irving, Morris, Hayward and Baynes every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

This roster was overhauled completely and that is unsettling for fans and will be a challenge for the coach and players to gel and meet expectations. But cherry picking EFG% numbers in a 4 vs. 2 comparison would seem to disregard the fact that the C's actually replaced 4 with 4 and will still carry 15 men on the roster and not 13, so guys like Tatum, Morris, Baynes, etc. also need to be in the comparison.

BleedGreen wrote:

swish wrote:Next years Nets pick sure looks to me like it could be a top 3 pick - plus the Celtic are now short 4 players that were very effective scorers last year ( Bradley, Thomas, Crowder, and Olynyk ) with EFG'S OF .533, .546, .572, AND .579 - replaced by Irving, .534 and Haywood, .536 - thats an awful lot riding on the expectations of the youthful pups for picking up the slack next year - especially in a league that is very much dominated by teams that excel in high shooting percentages. Are there more changes coming ?

  swish

The league is dominated by superstars

You trade IT, Bradley, Crowder and Olynyk for Irving, Morris, Hayward and Baynes every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

This roster was overhauled completely and that is unsettling for fans and will be a challenge for the coach and players to gel and meet expectations. But cherry picking EFG% numbers in a 4 vs. 2 comparison would seem to disregard the fact that the C's actually replaced 4 with 4 and will still carry 15 men on the roster and not 13, so guys like Tatum, Morris, Baynes, etc. also need to be in the comparison.

very astute observations

Regarding the Brooklyn pick, I think the east has significantly gotten weaker with the departure of Jimmy Butler and Paul George.
So I think the Brooklyn pick will most probably land in the top 5, not top 3.

Also, I think IT is a 1 year rental for the Cavs.
IT will leave if Lebron leaves.
That will result in the Cavs trading Kyrie for the 2018 Brooklyn pick, Crowder, and Zizic.

What is the correct course of action ? - Who's right - who's wrong - the answers will come in the future.

swish

The Hawks, Bulls, Suns, Pacers and Magic should all be worse than the Nets.

The Lakers, Knicks, Nets, Kings and Pelicans are my choices for teams picking in the 6-10 range. I posted a few weeks ago the Celtics would likely need some ping-pong ball luck for either pick to land in the top 3, but not out of the question of both are in the 6-10 range.

The Lakers and Nets should both be good enough to avoid top 5 fate simply based upon them both getting marginally better and have no incentive to tank while the 6-7 other teams with the worst records around them will start doing so hard core come February.

I thought the odds of a game-changer top 6 player coming here were great between both picks. Now the C's have reduced odds, needing to hope LA lands between 2-5. It'd be amazing if the Lakers pick hits and the Nets is outside the top 6. I'll take 5 for us and 7 for the Cavs but something like 2 and 11 would be even sweeter.

swish wrote:What is the correct course of action ? -  Who's right - who's wrong -  the answers will come in the future.

  swish

I think the Celts already won.

If you think about it, the KG and Pierce trade to BKN netted James Young, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, the 2018 Lakers pick, and Kyrie.

James Young is the only negative in that trade.

I guess we can stop rooting for the Nets to lose every night. Seems that's been my mindset for about as long as I can remember. Guess I don't remember much these days...

steve3344 wrote:I guess we can stop rooting for the Nets to lose every night. Seems that's been my mindset for about as long as I can remember. Guess I don't remember much these days...

You just shift your focus to rooting for the Lakers to lose every night.

fierce wrote:

steve3344 wrote:I guess we can stop rooting for the Nets to lose every night. Seems that's been my mindset for about as long as I can remember. Guess I don't remember much these days...

You just shift your focus to rooting for the Lakers to lose every night.

Been doing that since I wore diapers.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Will someone shut Felger up please!!!  He is such a jerk.  I saw this attitude from him when KG was signed .  He hates the Celtics so anytime he gets the chance he slams Danny.

He likes to start trouble. He was all over this saying do it do it. Then they do it and he says "Danny could end up looking like a fool with this". What an ass clown

Only way Ainge ends up looking like a fool is if Lebron and IT re-sign with the Cavs next summer and the 2018 Nets pick ends up in the top 3.

If Lebron and IT leave and the the Nets pick ends up in the top 3, it's only fair the Celts gave up a top 3 pick for a proven and legit superstar in Kyrie.

The Cavs would end up the fool if Lebron and IT leave next summer and the Nets pick falls out of the top 5.

steve3344 wrote:

fierce wrote:

steve3344 wrote:I guess we can stop rooting for the Nets to lose every night. Seems that's been my mindset for about as long as I can remember. Guess I don't remember much these days...

You just shift your focus to rooting for the Lakers to lose every night.

Been doing that since I wore diapers.

Haha so true

fierce wrote:Only way Ainge ends up looking like a fool is if Lebron and IT re-sign with the Cavs next summer and the 2018 Nets pick ends up in the top 3.

If Lebron and IT leave and the the Nets pick ends up in the top 3, it's only fair the Celts gave up a top 3 pick for a proven and legit superstar in Kyrie.

The Cavs would end up the fool if Lebron and IT leave next summer and the Nets pick falls out of the top 5.

If LeBron and IT leave and the Nets pick ends up being Bagley or Porter and either one of them turns into one of the new generation of superstars on par with Kawhi or Giannis and Irving leaves the Celtics as a FA after two title-less seasons or has a post age 27 career like Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway AFTER signing an absolutely poisonous max extension that costs 100 million a year in lux tax fees alone... well then the Celtics probably end up looking like fools in that scenario as well.

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:Only way Ainge ends up looking like a fool is if Lebron and IT re-sign with the Cavs next summer and the 2018 Nets pick ends up in the top 3.

If Lebron and IT leave and the the Nets pick ends up in the top 3, it's only fair the Celts gave up a top 3 pick for a proven and legit superstar in Kyrie.

The Cavs would end up the fool if Lebron and IT leave next summer and the Nets pick falls out of the top 5.

If LeBron and IT leave and the Nets pick ends up being Bagley or Porter and either one of them turns into one of the new generation of superstars on par with Kawhi or Giannis and Irving leaves the Celtics as a FA after two title-less seasons or has a post age 27 career like Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway AFTER signing an absolutely poisonous max extension that costs 100 million a year in lux tax fees alone... well then the Celtics probably end up looking like fools in that scenario as well.

Kyrie is a former #1 pick who's a proven winner.
He's a legit NBA superstar.

It's only fair you risk giving up the chance to get Bagley or Porter for a proven superstar in Kyrie.

Ainge just sacrificed part of the future for the present.

Remember, the Celts still have the 2018 Lakers pick.
It's not like the Celts gave up both the 2018 BKN and LAL picks.

fierce wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:Only way Ainge ends up looking like a fool is if Lebron and IT re-sign with the Cavs next summer and the 2018 Nets pick ends up in the top 3.

If Lebron and IT leave and the the Nets pick ends up in the top 3, it's only fair the Celts gave up a top 3 pick for a proven and legit superstar in Kyrie.

The Cavs would end up the fool if Lebron and IT leave next summer and the Nets pick falls out of the top 5.

If LeBron and IT leave and the Nets pick ends up being Bagley or Porter and either one of them turns into one of the new generation of superstars on par with Kawhi or Giannis and Irving leaves the Celtics as a FA after two title-less seasons or has a post age 27 career like Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway AFTER signing an absolutely poisonous max extension that costs 100 million a year in lux tax fees alone... well then the Celtics probably end up looking like fools in that scenario as well.

Kyrie is a former #1 pick who's a proven winner.
He's a legit NBA superstar.

It's only fair you risk giving up the chance to get Bagley or Porter for a proven superstar in Kyrie.

Ainge just sacrificed part of the future for the present.

Remember, the Celts still have the 2018 Lakers pick.
It's not like the Celts gave up both the 2018 BKN and LAL picks.

There's only a small window we get the Lakers pick as it has to fall between 2 and 5. Otherwise it turns into Sacto's first round pick in 2019 as I imagine everyone on here knows. I would've rather given them that pick and keep the Nets pick next year. But we'll see how it all turns out. Bottom line, this trade is one of the most high risk trades in memory with no less than our ability to win a championship in the next several years hanging in the balance. Danny has balls of titanium. Hope he is right about this.

steve3344 wrote:

fierce wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:Only way Ainge ends up looking like a fool is if Lebron and IT re-sign with the Cavs next summer and the 2018 Nets pick ends up in the top 3.

If Lebron and IT leave and the the Nets pick ends up in the top 3, it's only fair the Celts gave up a top 3 pick for a proven and legit superstar in Kyrie.

The Cavs would end up the fool if Lebron and IT leave next summer and the Nets pick falls out of the top 5.

If LeBron and IT leave and the Nets pick ends up being Bagley or Porter and either one of them turns into one of the new generation of superstars on par with Kawhi or Giannis and Irving leaves the Celtics as a FA after two title-less seasons or has a post age 27 career like Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway AFTER signing an absolutely poisonous max extension that costs 100 million a year in lux tax fees alone... well then the Celtics probably end up looking like fools in that scenario as well.

Kyrie is a former #1 pick who's a proven winner.
He's a legit NBA superstar.

It's only fair you risk giving up the chance to get Bagley or Porter for a proven superstar in Kyrie.

Ainge just sacrificed part of the future for the present.

Remember, the Celts still have the 2018 Lakers pick.
It's not like the Celts gave up both the 2018 BKN and LAL picks.

There's only a small window we get the Lakers pick as it has to fall between 2 and 5. Otherwise it turns into Sacto's first round pick in 2019 as I imagine everyone on here knows. I would've rather given them that pick and keep the Nets pick next year. But we'll see how it all turns out. Bottom line, this trade is one of the most high risk trades in memory with no less than our ability to win a championship in the next several years hanging in the balance. Danny has balls of titanium. Hope he is right about this.

A lot of teams in the east have fallen on hard times.
Teams like the Bulls and Pacers, both playoff teams last season, will most likely miss the playoffs this coming season.
And because the star power in the west has greatly increased, there's really a bigger chance the Lakers pick is going to be better.

Law of averages says it's very difficult for the Celts to end up with the #1 pick in two successive drafts.
So the 2 to 5 range is reasonable.

I really find hard it hard to believe the Lakers will fall out of the top 5 this coming season.

OKC has Westbrook and PG13

Minny has added Jim Butler.

The Clips are still better than the Lakers with Blake and DeAndre.

I think the only team in the west worse than the Lakers is the Kings.
And that's because of Zach Randolph's arrest.