WHY DANNY DID IT

bobheckler wrote:

Mrkleen,

How many years do you think it will take before Tatum is teady to play at an NBA championship level?  Where is our veteran front court?  If Danny doesn't have at least one more on the roster by late-October then how much longer will it take to get him and integrate him?  You cannot compete for a championship without being 10 deep, minimum, and those 10 have to be really good and playing together as a team..

Sure we could trade for a big.  Who do you think we would have to give up to get one that can/will carry his weight in the championship round?  Spare parts?


bob

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There is a big difference between being ready THIS year and throwing in the towel for 3 to 4 years. I never said the Celtics are ready to win the title with this team, this year - in fact, I said just the opposite - that I think they take a step back this year and the title still looks like its between GS and Cleveland. But 3 to 4 years to be good, no way. Danny will not let the Kyrie / Hayward window close without making more moves.

In my eyes, Tatum will be a 10 to 15 PPG scorer by middle of next season, likely the same with Brown. Not sure what you mean by veteran front court. Isnt Horford and Morris with Bynes off the bench a Veteran front court?

As for the 10 deep comment, not sure I agree - but for the sake of argument ok. So the Celtics wont be '10 deep' this year, but next year and for the next 5 years? Unless you have a crystal ball, no way to tell.

Need to see who player #15 is before I'll say we lost depth.
Last year we had Jackson, Young and Mickey....................
I do think a second unit of Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis and Baynes is better than last year.

worcester wrote:Don't get me wrong. I love Isaiah, but his game is not optimum for playoff time. During the regular season he drives to the hoop a lot, gets calls, and makes fritos. During the playoffs refs don't make those calls so often. The difference with Kyrie is that when he drives for a layup playoffs or not, he is not looking to draw a foul but instead to make the basket, which he usually does. He does not depend on getting foul calls whereas Isaiah does. That makes Kyrie a money player in the playoffs and Isaiah less so.

Also, I do believe IT's torn labrum will not get fully better without surgery. I do expect him to falter this year when his hip gets inflamed and further torn. He will be 95% ok after surgery, but he will need 6-9 months to recover whenever that is. My 2 cents.

Great points.

Kyrie and Thomas both fluctuate between being slightly below average to awful defenders in the regular season. However, come playoff time IT remains such a liability b/c he was either doing the best that he could all along, or even if he upped his D a bit those he is defending are upping their offense the same amount to equal that out. Meanwhile, Kyrie puts in a lot more effort on D in the postseason and gets himself to the level of being an average defensive PG. At least he has done so against Steph, Lowry and IT the last few years.

That is a pretty big deal.

Look at it this way:

When fans see basically two A on offense and D on defense regular season PG's they may think this trade was too lopsided and IT is practically worth Irving by himself. But Irving is an A on offense C on D player in the playoffs and Thomas drops to a B on O and remains a D on D. Soo... when his "Brinks Truck" comments combined with being 3 years older, a FA one year sooner and having a hip injury are taken into consideration... it is definitely a no-brainer for Ainge as long as Uncle Drew stays at least the player he has been the last 4 years for the next 6 in a Celtic uniform and the Nets pick isn't a generational superstar things should all be ok.

But since Irving obviously does not try hard on D during the regular seasons AND thinks the world is flat, he hardly escapes this analogy unscathed. He may very well be Rondo weird/difficult albeit it in different ways. That can't excite our fans base too much.

red16russ11 wrote:Need to see who player #15 is before I'll say we lost depth.
Last year we had Jackson, Young and Mickey....................
I do think a second unit of Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis and Baynes is better than last year.

I'd say Theis and Baynes are likely to be at least equal talents/impact players as Olynyk and Jerebko were, but we don't know for sure yet.

Tatum is a 19 year old #3 pick potentially having to only replace the mins/production of Brown, a 20 year old #3 pick a year ago. That is a wash in my book. But Tatum has way more offensive polish and could easily have a bigger impact. We just don't know yet until we see it when it counts.

We can only assume Smart and Rozier will be better versions of themselves due to still improving age 24 to 23, but that is not 100% a guarantee. Remember, we saw Rondo peak age 23-25 and then actually decline and not improve even before his ACL injury.

I'd say after the 3 for 1 trade for Irving the bench can be better or it can be worse. Prior to this trade it absolutely, 100% was better than a year ago.

http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/danny-ainge-first-overall-pick-markelle-fultz-philadelphia-76ers-trade-looks-better-after-getting-cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving

BleedGreen wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:Need to see who player #15 is before I'll say we lost depth.
Last year we had Jackson, Young and Mickey....................
I do think a second unit of Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis and Baynes is better than last year.

I'd say Theis and Baynes are likely to be at least equal talents/impact players as Olynyk and Jerebko were, but we don't know for sure yet.

Tatum is a 19 year old #3 pick potentially having to only replace the mins/production of Brown, a 20 year old #3 pick a year ago. That is a wash in my book. But Tatum has way more offensive polish and could easily have a bigger impact. We just don't know yet until we see it when it counts.

We can only assume Smart and Rozier will be better versions of themselves due to still improving age 24 to 23, but that is not 100% a guarantee. Remember, we saw Rondo peak age 23-25 and then actually decline and not improve even before his ACL injury.

I'd say after the 3 for 1 trade for Irving the bench can be better or it can be worse. Prior to this trade it absolutely, 100% was better than a year ago.

Bleed,

I can go along with the Theis-Jerebko comparison for now, until we actually get to see Theis play, but Baynes and Kelly are completely different players.  Baynes is a low post banger with no outside game and who is not known for running the floor.  Kelly was an outside threat with the ability to put the ball on the floor and create (however awkwardly he looked when he did it) and ran the floor pretty well but had no inside game unless he had a mismatch against a SF or smaller.  

Our inside game should improve with Baynes (couldn't get much worse), he is also a better rebounder than Kelly or Zeller, but he is not a floor spacer at all.  Nor can the offense run through him like we could with Kelly.  For example, last year Brad played an inside-out game with Kelly on the perimeter and Marcus Smart in the low post torturing some poor soul.  That worked because Kelly's man couldn't just leave him alone at the arc.  That same play won't work if it's Smart and Baynes because nobody fears Baynes from there.


bob


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bobheckler wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:Need to see who player #15 is before I'll say we lost depth.
Last year we had Jackson, Young and Mickey....................
I do think a second unit of Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis and Baynes is better than last year.

I'd say Theis and Baynes are likely to be at least equal talents/impact players as Olynyk and Jerebko were, but we don't know for sure yet.

Tatum is a 19 year old #3 pick potentially having to only replace the mins/production of Brown, a 20 year old #3 pick a year ago. That is a wash in my book. But Tatum has way more offensive polish and could easily have a bigger impact. We just don't know yet until we see it when it counts.

We can only assume Smart and Rozier will be better versions of themselves due to still improving age 24 to 23, but that is not 100% a guarantee. Remember, we saw Rondo peak age 23-25 and then actually decline and not improve even before his ACL injury.

I'd say after the 3 for 1 trade for Irving the bench can be better or it can be worse. Prior to this trade it absolutely, 100% was better than a year ago.

Bleed,

I can go along with the Theis-Jerebko comparison for now, until we actually get to see Theis play, but Baynes and Kelly are completely different players.  Baynes is a low post banger with no outside game and who is not known for running the floor.  Kelly was an outside threat with the ability to put the ball on the floor and create (however awkwardly he looked when he did it) and ran the floor pretty well but had no inside game unless he had a mismatch against a SF or smaller.  

Our inside game should improve with Baynes (couldn't get much worse), he is also a better rebounder than Kelly or Zeller, but he is not a floor spacer at all.  Nor can the offense run through him like we could with Kelly.  For example, last year Brad played an inside-out game with Kelly on the perimeter and Marcus Smart in the low post torturing some poor soul.  That worked because Kelly's man couldn't just leave him alone at the arc.  That same play won't work if it's Smart and Baynes because nobody fears Baynes from there.


bob


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Bob

Would you mind putting together a poll?

potential questions

Who won the Trade?
Are The Celtics a better team as a result of the trade?
Will Boston make it to the finals within the next 2 years


Feel free to add or subtract from these questions.

dboss

bob


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bobheckler wrote:



bob


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While heaping praise on IT Brad didn't attempt to answer the kid's question. Maybe because HE wasn't the one who traded Thomas. At least he didn't say, "You have to ask Danny."

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:



bob


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While heaping praise on IT Brad didn't attempt to answer the kid's question. Maybe because HE wasn't the one who traded Thomas. At least he didn't say, "You have to ask Danny."

Steve,

Do you think a trade that significant happened without Brad's support?


bob


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bobheckler wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:



bob


.

While heaping praise on IT Brad didn't attempt to answer the kid's question. Maybe because HE wasn't the one who traded Thomas. At least he didn't say, "You have to ask Danny."

Steve,

Do you think a trade that significant happened without Brad's support?  


bob


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I'm thinking Brad first heard about it when we did. No? Danny probably didn't want to bother him with work stuff while he's on vacation...

Brad knew. The trade had potential from the moment Kyrie said he wanted out. Thomas had to be included to make it work. Brad Stevens knew of this trade long before we did.

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:



bob


.

While heaping praise on IT Brad didn't attempt to answer the kid's question. Maybe because HE wasn't the one who traded Thomas. At least he didn't say, "You have to ask Danny."

Steve,

Do you think a trade that significant happened without Brad's support?  


bob


.

I'm thinking Brad first heard about it when we did. No? Danny probably didn't want to bother him with work stuff while he's on vacation...

Steve,

I cannot imagine Danny trading away two of Brad's starters from last year without bringing him in on the discussion. I'm sure he more than half-expected that Jae would be gone once we landed Hayward, but IT? I don't think a new point guard was on Brad's shopping list.


bob


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bobheckler wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:



bob


.

While heaping praise on IT Brad didn't attempt to answer the kid's question. Maybe because HE wasn't the one who traded Thomas. At least he didn't say, "You have to ask Danny."

Steve,

Do you think a trade that significant happened without Brad's support?  


bob


.

I'm thinking Brad first heard about it when we did. No? Danny probably didn't want to bother him with work stuff while he's on vacation...

Steve,

I cannot imagine Danny trading away two of Brad's starters from last year without bringing him in on the discussion.  I'm sure he more than half-expected that Jae would be gone once we landed Hayward, but IT?  I don't think a new point guard was on Brad's shopping list.


bob


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Was obviously kidding with that post.

worcester wrote: . . . Also, I do believe IT's torn labrum will not get fully better without surgery. I do expect him to falter this year when his hip gets inflamed and further torn. He will be 95% ok after surgery, but he will need 6-9 months to recover whenever that is. My 2 cents.

Worcester: I haven't run across this viewpoint elsewhere and have been wondering why.

My dear friend suffered a torn labrum in her right hip six years ago and it still hasn't healed, not in the least. The inflammation goes down, it starts to feel better, and she tries to put normal pressure on it, such as walking. Boom! She ends up in so much pain she is unable to walk, stand, or even sit for any extended length of time. She finds sleeping difficult because she can't lie on her right side. I don't know if her torn labrum is worse than IT's; for his sake, I hope not.

It sounds to me as though Danny and Brad know the prognosis and included the Nyets pick as the real value in the deal. I'll miss IT. He's a warrior and an inspiration and doesn't deserve to be banished to Cleveland, but life isn't fair.

I'm glad it's not the 2018 Lakers pick.