The Matchup Celtics vs Lakers

Sam wrote:TJ,

Actually, I believe the Celtics' successes in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 2008 do have an impact on the current series. Not directly, which is what I'd expect Lakers fans to argue against. But indirectly, as follows.

I don't know of another franchise in the NBA (including the Lakers) in which the championship definition of greatness has been as deeply established for as long a time, and passed down through as many generations, as it has been with the Celtics. Only championships matter. The heritage of the current Celtics players has absolutely nothing to do with finals appearances. Nobody cares. The fans don't care. The players don't care. If that's true in L.A., it's certainly not borne out by the vast numbers of Lakers fans who talk trash about their 30 finals appearance. Fine, bridesmaids can be pretty too.

When the Celtics play in the finals, they're automatically accountable to their heritage. I'm sure they don't think, when they're standing at the free throw line, "Golly gee, I'd better not miss this one because I'm accountable to my heritage." But in thinking about the finals and what they mean, and in preparing mentally for the finals, and in getting themseves "up" for the finals. I personally guarantee it was a key factor at the time when Jack Kent Cooke was hanging up his balloons.

I believe history plays a greater role in the Celtics' perspective and resolve, whereas the possibility to make one's own imprint is more likely to play a greater role in the minds of competing players. The Boston Celtics' history as a criterion of greatness simply has far better established roots than those of any other team in the league. Championships are a huge part of what the Celtics legacy is uniquely all about.

I don't follow the Lakers closely, so I don't know how intertwined with the current team are Lakers legends of the past. But nothing can make me believe the notion of implicit accountability to Lakers' past greats is nearly so strongly emblazoned on their minds as is true of the Celtics. In fact, this is the first Celtics championship era that didn't include a player or coach from the Russell teams. And we all saw what an impact the reationship between Russ and KG had.

Not that the current Celtics don't also want to establish their own imprint on history. But that motivation simply adds to their sources of resolve.

I'm sure you won't agree with me. I've talked with many fans of other teams, and it's something they want so badly to believe their teams possess as well. But they don't. Accountability to the past was a HUGE part of the motivation that kept aging teams, year after year of losing future hall-of-famers to retirement, focusing intently on the next one. It was an incredible motivator; and perhaps only people who witnessed the immensity of it, up close and personal, can imagine how it could be handed down to current generations of Celtics.

None of this is a prediction of the outcome of this series, and you're absolutely right. The games still have to be played. I'm commenting solely on the matter of motivation. It's simply a way in which the Celtics are different. If you polled 1,000 basketball fans around the country and asked them what single word was most synonymous with each of the 30 NBA teams, the word most associated with the Celtics would be "champions" or "championships." More so than any other team.

Sam

Sam,

Many valid points but some I can't agree with. Motivation can be a factor but not a huge part. KG might be motivated for the Celtics, maybe someone else for their sick child or maybe just to avenge a previous loss. But when it comes down to it, talent and execution will win out. That's what makes these 7 games series great.

You discount Finals appearances which gives Boston a free pass for the 1987-2007 seasons. Wasn't it a little embarrassing watching the Nets, 76ers and Pacers play in the Finals against LA?

I agree that wearing the Celtics uniform or the Yankees pinstripes is an added level of responsibility and honor. But that doesn't mean the players in the Boston uniforms will win this series or the Yankees will win the World Series, if they get there.

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:Artest is a big part of that. Subtracting Radmonovic and adding Artest and Bynum into this series has made them much tougher and a MUCH better defensive team.

In 2008, they gave up 100.2 ppg. This year, the Lakers are 11th out of 16 playoff teams in opponent PPG giving up 101.7 ppg. Does that sound MUCH better to you?

tjmakz wrote:When is the responsibility to the Celtics going to motivate Rasheed to rebound and play defense? Outside of a handful of games this postseason, he has been an embarrassment to the Celtics organization.

You can say what you want - but unlike Odom - who the Lakers NEED to come up big if they are to have any chance, the Celtics dont need Rasheed to be a major factor in this series. Sheed will use up all 6 of his fouls by hacking, pulling, pushing and intimidating Gasol and Odom every minute he is on the court - and we all know those two guys are SOFT and can be taken out of their game by aggressive play.

tjmakz wrote:When was is that BBD cried? Last year or the year before? Was BBD "in line" earlier this year? How did Garnett let the team deterioriate so bad to the point of Rasheed screaming at Doc on the court and everyone was just sitting there, afraid to say a word?

Talk about grasping at straws - What difference does it make when Glen Davis cried? He has grown immensely since then - and when he draws 3 or 4 charges in one game and takes the ball at Odom's chest a few drives - you will see what a "big baby" he has turned into.

Glad to see the level to which you are questioning the green team. Unfortunately the Lakers coaches and players know better than to underestimate the Celtics.

Kleen,

If nobody here wants to recognize the 226 points that Boston gave up to Phoenix in 2 losses this year, why are we referencing the Lakers points against Phoenix? One of those losses was when Boston was 6-0 and playing great defense.

It is about scoring more then your opponent. Why don't you reference how many points the Lakers have scored?

If your expectation of Rasheed this series is to just get 6 fouls, then you might be see that. He plays D with his arms and racks up more fouls then rebounds. When Perk blows up and gets a tech, you will really be counting on the softest big man in the league. (Rasheed).
I didn't bring up BBD first. Boston fans wanted to run him out of town when the season started. Isn't it funny how winning heals all wounds?

All teams can be questioned. I expect LA to win and I am pretty sure LA's coaches and players do also.

It takes no time at all. The organization has a way, mystical as it may be to outsiders like myself and others peering in, of instilling it upon hire. Once part of the family, you are always part of the family. So this would include the likes of Posey, Cassell, PJ and even Stephon.

Families argue and yell and scream. They laugh, they cry, they get angry. The Celtics are just like any other family in many ways yet very strikingly different in very many ways. They're not perfect by any stretch. A true basketball family is accountable to each other, grows up together, grows old together, does everything together, loses players to trade together and wins and loses championships together. I think BBD as of today is in line and ready to go to war.

As much as all of us would like to think, we are not part of the Celtic organization unless someone on this board is employed by them. The Celtics, through their generosity and attention to marketing and desire to make a profit, allow us to comment on them, buy tickets,go to their games, cheer for their team, buy their jerseys, etc. All we get to do is watch, participate in the crowd if we go to games or watch them on TV. It is an organization I admire for many reasons. But there is a certain mystique/aura about them that none of us will know (barring Sam since he actually spent time with the teams travelling in the 60's) unless we actually are on the payroll and are privy to what makes this organization tick on a daily basis.

Trust me, Rasheed has already done what we hired him to do in spades. And we still have one more series to go. You're looking for this massive all-incompassing effort or team to beat Boston. It's alot like the US attack on Iraq a few years ago where we saw the military perform minute by minute on tv before our very eyes. There wasn't this massive WWII hundreds of thousands of planes carpet bombing cities into Bolivia, as Mike Tyson said. It was laser-like precision in the middle of the night blowing up completely unsuspecting vital targets. It was simply beyond belief. Shock and awe I think they called it. But it was set up by intense preparation and attention to detail, day in and day out.

LAL wants and has shown the WWII approach to beating the Celtics. And so far, this season appears to be the same tactic. That's what they did all through the 1960's, ( also in1984 and most recently in 2008) finally getting Wilt out there to save them, but the results were the same. Magic's teams figured it out between 1984 and 1985. It didn't involve uprooting the starting line up, beefing up, playing better defense, etc. But that's the weapon they've chosen again. We instead choose to play the game at a high level all the time (that's the preparation part) and then insert the heartbreaking back-toback Ray 3's, Rondo dives and slides, etc to rip a huge hole in the sails of our opponents.

Just like I didn't think LeBron had all this together to make a real playoff run this year and mouthed off incessantly on here to that point, LAL doesn't have it either, at least as of Finals eve. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and congratulate you and the Lakers.

I really don't know what "it" is for the Celtics or for the Lakers for that matter. But it's like offensive porn...you know it when you see it. I'm just not privy to the insides of the Celtic organization or LA.

dbrown4 wrote:It takes no time at all. The organization has a way, mystical as it may be to outsiders like myself and others peering in, of instilling it upon hire. Once part of the family, you are always part of the family. So this would include the likes of Posey, Cassell, PJ and even Stephon.

Families argue and yell and scream. They laugh, they cry, they get angry. The Celtics are just like any other family in many ways yet very strikingly different in very many ways. They're not perfect by any stretch. A true basketball family is accountable to each other, grows up together, grows old together, does everything together, loses players to trade together and wins and loses championships together. I think BBD as of today is in line and ready to go to war.

As much as all of us would like to think, we are not part of the Celtic organization unless someone on this board is employed by them. The Celtics, through their generosity and attention to marketing and desire to make a profit, allow us to comment on them, buy tickets,go to their games, cheer for their team, buy their jerseys, etc. All we get to do is watch, participate in the crowd if we go to games or watch them on TV. It is an organization I admire for many reasons. But there is a certain mystique/aura about them that none of us will know (barring Sam since he actually spent time with the teams travelling in the 60's) unless we actually are on the payroll and are privy to what makes this organization tick on a daily basis.

Trust me, Rasheed has already done what we hired him to do in spades. And we still have one more series to go. You're looking for this massive all-incompassing effort or team to beat Boston. It's alot like the US attack on Iraq a few years ago where we saw the military perform minute by minute on tv before our very eyes. There wasn't this massive WWII hundreds of thousands of planes carpet bombing cities into Bolivia, as Mike Tyson said. It was laser-like precision in the middle of the night blowing up completely unsuspecting vital targets. It was simply beyond belief. Shock and awe I think they called it. But it was set up by intense preparation and attention to detail, day in and day out.

LAL wants and has shown the WWII approach to beating the Celtics. And so far, this season appears to be the same tactic. That's what they did all through the 1960's, ( also in1984 and most recently in 2008) finally getting Wilt out there to save them, but the results were the same. Magic's teams figured it out between 1984 and 1985. It didn't involve uprooting the starting line up, beefing up, playing better defense, etc. But that's the weapon they've chosen again. We instead choose to play the game at a high level all the time (that's the preparation part) and then insert the heartbreaking back-toback Ray 3's, Rondo dives and slides, etc to rip a huge hole in the sails of our opponents.

Just like I didn't think LeBron had all this together to make a real playoff run this year and mouthed off incessantly on here to that point, LAL doesn't have it either, at least as of Finals eve. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and congratulate you and the Lakers.

I really don't know what "it" is for the Celtics or for the Lakers for that matter. But it's like offensive porn...you know it when you see it. I'm just not privy to the insides of the Celtic organization or LA.

dbrown,
It is hard for me to respond to you. I almost feel like I am being Punked. (Sam/Mods, TV show reference).
I don't think Boston plays at a high level all the time. What about all the bad years? What about this regular season? You build up this Celtics mystique way grander then what Dorothy was expecting from The Wizard of Oz.
Boston will win if they play better and vice-versa. Period. Magic, Russell or Red won't help these teams win this series.

TJ,

I believe I totally preempted your last remark with my disclaimer. Enough on that one.

Please point to where I said motivation supersedes all else or that one type of motivation counts 32.589184763037% more than any other type.

If both teams are equally talented (which is what a lot of the so-called "experts" claim), I'll take talent plus the the extra life from the type of motivation of which I spoke. It still might not mean a win; many things can intervene, including injury. But I'd prefer to be on the side that benefits from that extra type of motivation (however much it counts for) that I believe no other team can match.

I say "huge potato," you say "large potahto." How does "significant" sound?

I wouldn't expect a non-Celtics fan to feel comfortable with my claim. I just know what I read in the papers and heard from the players. And I was only trying to set the record straight after you appeared to be discounting that form of motivation relating to the past. Perhaps my intent was misguided by your words, "History has nothing to do with this series." And, yes, I know that history doesn't directly affect the outcome of this series. That's why I used the word "indirectly." Maybe you can tell me where I went wrong in my interpretation.

Sam

tjmakz wrote:If nobody here wants to recognize the 226 points that Boston gave up to Phoenix in 2 losses this year, why are we referencing the Lakers points against Phoenix? One of those losses was when Boston was 6-0 and playing great defense.

It is about scoring more then your opponent. Why don't you reference how many points the Lakers have scored?

Am I missing something? You were the one that tired to claim the Lakers were MUCH better defensively with Artest? Now you want to re-frame the argument to who scores the mores points? Last I checked, who scores the most HAS NOTHING to do with defense...but nice try.

But if you really do want to talk about the most important number in the defensive vs. offense calculation - it is +/-, and which team has a greater +/- number? The Celtics (+5.2)

tj- For my two cents worth, there is kind of a special club that you belong to when you become a Celtic, I've heard players talk about it. I think that the same thing applies to the Lakers, if you're a Laker, you know that there is a history there and it's kind of special. I think where that helps out is in the preparation phase..People on these two clubs may put in just a little more effort working on their craft, so to speak...There is a responsibility that the players for the Lakers and the Celtics may feel that goes a little beyond being elsewhere. For me, once the ref throws up the ball...all that stuff is out the window and they play...sometimes better than others but the preparation is a large part.
I don't think that the Celtics want this thing anymore than the Lakers do. I think it will come down to who is executing more consistently.

LACELTFAN wrote:tj- For my two cents worth, there is kind of a special club that you belong to when you become a Celtic, I've heard players talk about it. I think that the same thing applies to the Lakers, if you're a Laker, you know that there is a history there and it's kind of special. I think where that helps out is in the preparation phase..People on these two clubs may put in just a little more effort working on their craft, so to speak...There is a responsibility that the players for the Lakers and the Celtics may feel that goes a little beyond being elsewhere. For me, once the ref throws up the ball...all that stuff is out the window and they play...sometimes better than others but the preparation is a large part.
I don't think that the Celtics want this thing anymore than the Lakers do. I think it will come down to who is executing more consistently.

LA,

I am glad that you agree with me that it comes down to execution.

watchin game 4 in 1984. Huge 3 point play by chief. Huge steal by chief. So sweet watchin larry go over magic to win it and sending all those pretty people home with their mascara running. Perfect. Right up there with game 4 in 08.

The post below has been bugging me for a couple of days, since I first read it. I wasn't going to respond at first because it's such nonsense, but it's been gnawing at me.

I moved this from the Final Exam for This Forum thread b/c it's more appropriate to go at it here, especially given some of the previous posts in this thread about the respective expectations of LA and Boston.

worcester wrote:
Yes, the Lakers are and have been a great team. Too bad for them that their greatness hasn't been an exalted enough term to match (for the most part) what the Celtics have been through the years - Proud. Celtic pride has motivated our players to exceed their own expectations of themselves and to go more than the extra mile. Witness Rondo diving to the floor to scoop that runaway ball from J Will, a play that pretty much captures the essence of how the Celts have played to win over the years. Pierce, Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, and Russell - to name but a few - have all sacrificed their bodies in similar ways over the years to put their team on top. Sorry Laker fans, but can you recall even two or three incidents when the men in purple and gold volunteered themselves for a similar hardwood massage to win a game?
Peace out. Worcester

worcester-

You're kidding, right ? You've either never watched a Lakers Finals game or have a very selective memory.

I can think of three or four examples of Lakers diving on the floor in pursuit of a title FROM ONE GAME- even better, FROM ONE QUARTER of a single game.

Game 5 vs Orlando last year. Close out game on the road. I was there. I saw the Lakers rally from a double digit first quarter deficit, then stun the Magic with a huge 2nd quarter run to take control of the game.

And what keyed it ? Trevor Ariza (twice), Fish and Odom all diving on the floor in the process of making steals- IN ONE QUARTER!!!

And you think we can't cite two or three examples of such from LAker history ?

That is laughable.

Over the years, I've seen Kobe, Fox, Horry, Harper, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Rambis, AC, Scott- even Kareem and Shaq dive to the floor during the Finals in pursuit of a ring.

I know everyone here is obsessed with the mystical powers of "Celtic Pride", but do you really think players who've collectively won 15 championships (including one player whom Bird called the best he'd ever seen (Magic) and another who Bird said was the toughest defender he ever faced (Cooper)) don't have an incredible desire to win and pride of their own ?

What you're saying is they haven't hustled or done the dirty work or been inspired enough to dive on the floor. You're saying they haven't competed as hard.

WELL THEN HOW IN THE @#%^$ DID THEY BEAT THE CELTICS TWO OUT OF THREE TIMES IN THE 80'S THEN ?

Even the teams that lost to the Cs 7 times in the Russell years took the greatest team of the era to 7 games in three of those series and lost by 3, 2 and 2 points in those games. Do you think those Laker teams weren't competing as hard as the Cs b/c they didn't have "Celtic Pride" that allowed them to dice on the floor ?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?

I find that incredibly insulting, as why would I want to cheer for players or a franchise that was as heartless as your nonsense implies ? Why would I waste my money on season tickets and years of my life to watch a team that didn't care ?

I cheer for them because what you said is patently untrue. It's pure nonsense.

Come up with something better next time because this was pathetic.

mrkleen09 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:If nobody here wants to recognize the 226 points that Boston gave up to Phoenix in 2 losses this year, why are we referencing the Lakers points against Phoenix? One of those losses was when Boston was 6-0 and playing great defense.

It is about scoring more then your opponent. Why don't you reference how many points the Lakers have scored?

Am I missing something? You were the one that tired to claim the Lakers were MUCH better defensively with Artest? Now you want to re-frame the argument to who scores the mores points? Last I checked, who scores the most HAS NOTHING to do with defense...but nice try.

But if you really do want to talk about the most important number in the defensive vs. offense calculation - it is +/-, and which team has a greater +/- number? The Celtics (+5.2)

kleen,

LA's defense is MUCH better with Artest. If you want to focus on points given up to the highest scoring team in the NBA, you can, but remember that Boston gave up more points per game to Phoenix this year then LA did.
It is hard to believe that you think the most important number is points scored vs. points given up. (+/-)
If Boston loses the first two games by 3 points each game, and then goes back to Boston and wins by 25 in game 3, their +/- is +19. Yet, they are down 2-1. Blowouts make a +/- in the playoffs irrelevant. It is like a pitcher who gives up 8 runs in 1 inning. His ERA will stay high for quite a while. If he has 4 great starts following that one, his ERA will look average at best due to one bad inning.
We will give you a mulligan on your +/- statement. "the most important number in the defensive vs. offense calculation - it is +/-, ".
As an FYI, Orlando's +/- going into the Celtics series was +17.3 per game. Completely worthless playoff stat.

dbrown4 wrote:The organization has a way, mystical as it may be to outsiders like myself and others peering in, of instilling it upon hire. Once part of the family, you are always part of the family. So this would include the likes of Posey, Cassell, PJ and even Stephon.

You mean like Leon Powe ? He really got treated like family. I'm sure he considers himself part of the family to this day.

Sam wrote:TJ,

I believe I totally preempted your last remark with my disclaimer. Enough on that one.

Please point to where I said motivation supersedes all else or that one type of motivation counts 32.589184763037% more than any other type.

If both teams are equally talented (which is what a lot of the so-called "experts" claim), I'll take talent plus the the extra life from the type of motivation of which I spoke. It still might not mean a win; many things can intervene, including injury. But I'd prefer to be on the side that benefits from that extra type of motivation (however much it counts for) that I believe no other team can match.

I say "huge potato," you say "large potahto." How does "significant" sound?

I wouldn't expect a non-Celtics fan to feel comfortable with my claim. I just know what I read in the papers and heard from the players. And I was only trying to set the record straight after you appeared to be discounting that form of motivation relating to the past. Perhaps my intent was misguided by your words, "History has nothing to do with this series." And, yes, I know that history doesn't directly affect the outcome of this series. That's why I used the word "indirectly." Maybe you can tell me where I went wrong in my interpretation.

Sam

Sam,

Motivation to win plays a small part in a players determination/energy/focus. Some here think that wearing a green and white uniform instead of a purple and gold one provides more motivation. Each player develops their own motivation, it is not something passed to each player in the locker room. KG's motivation is off the charts compared to Rasheed's. I can't think of 1 player in sports that has stronger motivation/will to win then Kobe.

I do think history has a little to do with this series, but it is mostly from 2008, not 1984 or 1969, etc.

babyskyhook wrote:

dbrown4 wrote:The organization has a way, mystical as it may be to outsiders like myself and others peering in, of instilling it upon hire. Once part of the family, you are always part of the family. So this would include the likes of Posey, Cassell, PJ and even Stephon.

You mean like Leon Powe ? He really got treated like family. I'm sure he considers himself part of the family to this day.

What about Vin Baker?

Players come and go but the legend that is the Boston Celtics remain.

The Celtics and the lakers are a great rivalry. Not because the lakers have dominated Boston through then years. to the contrary The Celtics are 9-2 in Championship meetings.

The Lakers always got the best players like West or Chamberlain or Baylor or Kareem and Magic or Kobe and Shaq.

They have had great players but the Celtics have always been a greater team than LA.

The rivalry has always been about great individual players going against a great team.

As you shall see! Lakers fans have never been able to fully appreciate the difference.

dboss

dboss,

Is it safe to state that the 1950's and 1960's Celtics team had more hall of fame players on the court at the same time, then any other team in basketball history? Sam would know more about this. I would say YES.
Also, what team has the most hall of famers? It is close, but I think Boston is #1.
L.A.'s role players have been just as important as Boston's has. (Byron Scott, Rambis, Cooper, Fisher, Horry, Rick Fox, Devean George, Brian Shaw, etc.) How many big shots has Fisher and Horry made for the Lakers? They are not great individual players.

Your statements are inaccurate and condescending.

tjmakz wrote:
kleen,

LA's defense is MUCH better with Artest. If you want to focus on points given up to the highest scoring team in the NBA, you can, but remember that Boston gave up more points per game to Phoenix this year then LA did.
It is hard to believe that you think the most important number is points scored vs. points given up. (+/-)
If Boston loses the first two games by 3 points each game, and then goes back to Boston and wins by 25 in game 3, their +/- is +19. Yet, they are down 2-1. Blowouts make a +/- in the playoffs irrelevant. It is like a pitcher who gives up 8 runs in 1 inning. His ERA will stay high for quite a while. If he has 4 great starts following that one, his ERA will look average at best due to one bad inning.
We will give you a mulligan on your +/- statement. "the most important number in the defensive vs. offense calculation - it is +/-, ".
As an FYI, Orlando's +/- going into the Celtics series was +17.3 per game. Completely worthless playoff stat.

tj-

I give you props for trying, but really, why waste your time ? We've seen this movie before. Your debating with someone who makes statements such as:

mrkleen09 wrote:
If Ron Artest is lucky, Paul Pierce will let him carry his bag from the team bus to the locker room. That will be the extent of Ron's impact on the finals.

and

mrkleen09 wrote:

Not a joke at all. Durant averaged 25 ppg and shot nearly 11 FT per game against the Lakers. If that is good defense, I will take my chances.

Both comments are obviously pure nonsense and absolutely laughable. Even his fellow Cs fans call him out on this, um, "stuff".

bobheckler wrote:
MrKleen,

I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are.

Pierce has not been getting the foul calls he used to get. He regularly gets bounced around now, especially on drives, and that's by players who get less respect from the refs than Ron-Ron. Ron Artest is a physically punishing defender and, in the playoffs, the refs tend to let players "play their games". Not good news for Pierce.

cowens/oldschool wrote:
babyskyhook
Anyone who saw that series has to agree Artest played great defense on Durant and bothered him all series,making a huge impact,I don't know why mr kleen would deny that.And agreed Pierce will not have it as easy vs Artest as he did 2 years ago in bad match ups for your team vs Radmonovic and Luke Walton.I still believe Pierce with his smarts and craftiness will figure out some way to take over a few games in the next series.When Pierce gets in a zone he can score over anyone for a stretch,even Jordan in his prime.
cow

Once he starts getting called out, Kleen tries to run away from his original statement, as you so quickly sniffed out last time.

mrkleen09 wrote:
Once again Cow - seems I have to set you straight on what was ACTUALLY said.

Here is my quote: I watched the OKC/LA series. I saw Durant go through stretches where his shot was off. Sometimes it was because of Artest - sometimes it was because the kid is 22 an putting too much pressure on himself.

Where in that quote does it say that Artest did not make an impact on Durant's shooting?

Looks like we are not done with your nitpicking of my posts. If that is the case, so be it.

tjmakz wrote:
mrkleen,

This was your original comment about Artest's defense against Durant:

"Durant averaged 25 ppg and shot nearly 11 FT per game against the Lakers. If that is good defense, I will take my chances."

None of the Celtics fans on this board came to your defense on this one. You lose credibility when you make such statements which are either ill-informed or intentionally unobjective.

Once busted, he backpedals faster than a 35 year old cornerback lined up in man coverage on Larry Fitzgerald and then says he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

mrkleen09 wrote:
TJ - first of all, I dont need anyone to come to my defense. I watch every Celtics game and nearly every other play off game myself and view it with 40 years of experience watching and playing basketball. I may not agree with you or anyone else, but I dont need anyone's validation as to what I am seeing. I know basketball....sorry to disappoint you.

Ron Artest is not NEARLY the defensive player he once was....and while he did a good job on Kevin Durant, Durant STILL got 25 points per game in that series.

Many other people in this thread have said the same thing - that Artest will not stop Pierce from scoring and even if he does shut him down from time to time, we have lots of other weapons.

If you chose to hang you hat on Artest stopping Pierce and that being some kind of key to the series - I wish you luck with that.

I am done as well...we need to beat the Magic before we start worrying with any of this anyway....so time to move on.

There's never an acknowledgement that what he said originally was absolute nonsense, just an attempt or two to deny saying those things. He then contradicts his original statements without acknowledging the fact that they weren't true and says he wants to move on.


So why even bother, TJ ? I guess it's fun to call these things out once every six months, but on a regular basis, it's just not worth it. You've got good knowledge and a lot of good points to make. No need to waste your time.

babyskyhook wrote:The post below has been bugging me for a couple of days, since I first read it. I wasn't going to respond at first because it's such nonsense, but it's been gnawing at me.

I moved this from the Final Exam for This Forum thread b/c it's more appropriate to go at it here, especially given some of the previous posts in this thread about the respective expectations of LA and Boston.

worcester wrote:
Yes, the Lakers are and have been a great team. Too bad for them that their greatness hasn't been an exalted enough term to match (for the most part) what the Celtics have been through the years - Proud. Celtic pride has motivated our players to exceed their own expectations of themselves and to go more than the extra mile. Witness Rondo diving to the floor to scoop that runaway ball from J Will, a play that pretty much captures the essence of how the Celts have played to win over the years. Pierce, Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, and Russell - to name but a few - have all sacrificed their bodies in similar ways over the years to put their team on top. Sorry Laker fans, but can you recall even two or three incidents when the men in purple and gold volunteered themselves for a similar hardwood massage to win a game?
Peace out. Worcester

worcester-

You're kidding, right ? You've either never watched a Lakers Finals game or have a very selective memory.

I can think of three or four examples of Lakers diving on the floor in pursuit of a title FROM ONE GAME- even better, FROM ONE QUARTER of a single game.

Game 5 vs Orlando last year. Close out game on the road. I was there. I saw the Lakers rally from a double digit first quarter deficit, then stun the Magic with a huge 2nd quarter run to take control of the game.

And what keyed it ? Trevor Ariza (twice), Fish and Odom all diving on the floor in the process of making steals- IN ONE QUARTER!!!

And you think we can't cite two or three examples of such from LAker history ?

That is laughable.

Over the years, I've seen Kobe, Fox, Horry, Harper, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Rambis, AC, Scott- even Kareem and Shaq dive to the floor during the Finals in pursuit of a ring.

I know everyone here is obsessed with the mystical powers of "Celtic Pride", but do you really think players who've collectively won 15 championships (including one player whom Bird called the best he'd ever seen (Magic) and another who Bird said was the toughest defender he ever faced (Cooper)) don't have an incredible desire to win and pride of their own ?

What you're saying is they haven't hustled or done the dirty work or been inspired enough to dive on the floor. You're saying they haven't competed as hard.

WELL THEN HOW IN THE @#%^$ DID THEY BEAT THE CELTICS TWO OUT OF THREE TIMES IN THE 80'S THEN ?

Even the teams that lost to the Cs 7 times in the Russell years took the greatest team of the era to 7 games in three of those series and lost by 3, 2 and 2 points in those games. Do you think those Laker teams weren't competing as hard as the Cs b/c they didn't have "Celtic Pride" that allowed them to dice on the floor ?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?

I find that incredibly insulting, as why would I want to cheer for players or a franchise that was as heartless as your nonsense implies ? Why would I waste my money on season tickets and years of my life to watch a team that didn't care ?

I cheer for them because what you said is patently untrue. It's pure nonsense.

Come up with something better next time because this was pathetic.

baby-
You'll get no argument out of me...The Lakers have a proud history of winning, even if I take the occasional shot at them....however, on the point of winning in 87...even Magic acknowledges that the C's had some awfully bad breaks... with Bias dying and Walton out and Bird's back. Might have easily gone differently. But then the Lakers barely lost a couple of series also, so why the hell can't we just agree that they are two great teams locked in a great rivalry.

dboss wrote:Players come and go but the legend that is the Boston Celtics remain.

The Celtics and the lakers are a great rivalry. Not because the lakers have dominated Boston through then years. to the contrary The Celtics are 9-2 in Championship meetings.

The Lakers always got the best players like West or Chamberlain or Baylor or Kareem and Magic or Kobe and Shaq.

They have had great players but the Celtics have always been a greater team than LA.

The rivalry has always been about great individual players going against a great team.

As you shall see! Lakers fans have never been able to fully appreciate the difference.

dboss

You're right dboss- those Showtime Laker squads had absolutely no chemistry and never played as a team.


And I have no problem with 9-2, although 17-15 is the number that interests me more.

I just wish the Cs had been good enough to make the Finals when the lakers were racking up their other 13 titles.


And I guess all of us Laker fans are just ignorant for thinking we had teams all these years instead of just great individual players.

LACELTFAN wrote:
baby-
You'll get no argument out of me...The Lakers have a proud history of winning, even if I take the occasional shot at them....however, on the point of winning in 87...even Magic acknowledges that the C's had some awfully bad breaks... with Bias dying and Walton out and Bird's back. Might have easily gone differently. But then the Lakers barely lost a couple of series also, so why the hell can't we just agree that they are two great teams locked in a great rivalry.

LA- you and I are in total agreement. And the series that just barely went either way only add to the richness of the rivalry. Part of what makes it special.

...careful what you ask for baby....it might have been 22-2...just kidding...

babyskyhook wrote:

LACELTFAN wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:The post below has been bugging me for a couple of days, since I first read it. I wasn't going to respond at first because it's such nonsense, but it's been gnawing at me.

I moved this from the Final Exam for This Forum thread b/c it's more appropriate to go at it here, especially given some of the previous posts in this thread about the respective expectations of LA and Boston.

worcester wrote:
Yes, the Lakers are and have been a great team. Too bad for them that their greatness hasn't been an exalted enough term to match (for the most part) what the Celtics have been through the years - Proud. Celtic pride has motivated our players to exceed their own expectations of themselves and to go more than the extra mile. Witness Rondo diving to the floor to scoop that runaway ball from J Will, a play that pretty much captures the essence of how the Celts have played to win over the years. Pierce, Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, and Russell - to name but a few - have all sacrificed their bodies in similar ways over the years to put their team on top. Sorry Laker fans, but can you recall even two or three incidents when the men in purple and gold volunteered themselves for a similar hardwood massage to win a game?
Peace out. Worcester

worcester-

You're kidding, right ? You've either never watched a Lakers Finals game or have a very selective memory.

I can think of three or four examples of Lakers diving on the floor in pursuit of a title FROM ONE GAME- even better, FROM ONE QUARTER of a single game.

Game 5 vs Orlando last year. Close out game on the road. I was there. I saw the Lakers rally from a double digit first quarter deficit, then stun the Magic with a huge 2nd quarter run to take control of the game.

And what keyed it ? Trevor Ariza (twice), Fish and Odom all diving on the floor in the process of making steals- IN ONE QUARTER!!!

And you think we can't cite two or three examples of such from LAker history ?

That is laughable.

Over the years, I've seen Kobe, Fox, Horry, Harper, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Rambis, AC, Scott- even Kareem and Shaq dive to the floor during the Finals in pursuit of a ring.

I know everyone here is obsessed with the mystical powers of "Celtic Pride", but do you really think players who've collectively won 15 championships (including one player whom Bird called the best he'd ever seen (Magic) and another who Bird said was the toughest defender he ever faced (Cooper)) don't have an incredible desire to win and pride of their own ?

What you're saying is they haven't hustled or done the dirty work or been inspired enough to dive on the floor. You're saying they haven't competed as hard.

WELL THEN HOW IN THE @#%^$ DID THEY BEAT THE CELTICS TWO OUT OF THREE TIMES IN THE 80'S THEN ?

Even the teams that lost to the Cs 7 times in the Russell years took the greatest team of the era to 7 games in three of those series and lost by 3, 2 and 2 points in those games. Do you think those Laker teams weren't competing as hard as the Cs b/c they didn't have "Celtic Pride" that allowed them to dice on the floor ?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?

I find that incredibly insulting, as why would I want to cheer for players or a franchise that was as heartless as your nonsense implies ? Why would I waste my money on season tickets and years of my life to watch a team that didn't care ?

I cheer for them because what you said is patently untrue. It's pure nonsense.

Come up with something better next time because this was pathetic.

baby-
You'll get no argument out of me...The Lakers have a proud history of winning, even if I take the occasional shot at them....however, on the point of winning in 87...even Magic acknowledges that the C's had some awfully bad breaks... with Bias dying and Walton out and Bird's back. Might have easily gone differently. But then the Lakers barely lost a couple of series also, so why the hell can't we just agree that they are two great teams locked in a great rivalry.

LA- you and I are in total agreement. And the series that just barely went either way only add to the richness of the rivalry. Part of what makes it special.

I gotta say it's nice having rational Laker fans here instead of that bunch over at BDC...along with the crazy C fans too...

BSH,

This is all entertainment to me.
I am appreciative of being a member here.
If Sam or a Mod tell me to end a discussion, I will.
Otherwise, I don't seem to have a shut off valve when it comes to discussing this stuff.
If my thinking is unreasonable or unrealistic, others are welcome to address this. I feel we should always find much common ground, even though Celtics and Lakers fans have a different starting point.

LACELTFAN wrote:...careful what you ask for baby....it might have been 22-2...just kidding...

Ha- I would have loved for the Shaq and Kobe 3peat teams to face off vs the Walker/Pierce teams from that era. I would have LOVED that.

LACELTFAN wrote:
I gotta say it's nice having rational Laker fans here instead of that bunch over at BDC...along with the crazy C fans too...

LA-

I feel the same way in reverse. It's a pleasure interacting with and getting to know guys like you.