Post-game Thread: Celtics @ Cavs, 10/27/2010

[Sam]

Imissed the entire game due to a social obligation, so I'll have to watch the tape and chime in later on the post-mortems.

Go to it!

Sam

[Sam]

That game was ridiculous and if their intensity is going to ebb and flow like this it's going to be a long season. I know their timing is still coming about because this is game 2 but some of the smart basketball they have been playing especially by some of the vets left them in the third and fourth quarter.

Observation, is it me or has Jermaine O'Neil's confidence left him. He looks worse then a rookie out there playing a new position. Hope this does not come to be a bust.

I've pasted a couple of posts from another thread to this one. Hope it's okay.

Sam

Posted earlier by 112288:

If I was Doc I would have given Erden some minutes tonight when J O'N got into foul trouble early. Could not have done worse.

I know West will give them some good combo of offense and good defense when he gets back but the Celtics need another hot hand forward to give Pierce a rest and an added sniper in crunch time. Rudy Fernandez could be the player. Hope it comes soon.

112288

[Sam]

Posted earlier by Mrkleen:

Here we go....game two and people are already starting with the second guessing of Doc and DA.

Cleveland was playing over their heads and the Celtics looked out of sync. IT HAPPENS.

Mrkleen

[jeb]

i didnt see much of the game...what went wrong?

[112288]

Jeb,

1) Lost control of the glass on both ends;
2) Shaq had to play more minutes when Jermaine got into foul trouble and finally fouled out;
3) Double technical on one play in 4th Q;
4) Missed all 3 pters in 4th Q
5) When up 11 pts, could not step on their throats to finish the deal off!
6) Turnovers were the killer @19!

112288

[beat]

jeb

112288 summed it up and just to add an overall lack of something, effort determination. Think we though we could just walk in the arena and win. Although we struggled in many ways we were up 11 in the third, Cavs went on a run and cut it to 5 then 3 . At about this time the Techs were handed out. Started with a tough call against Nate who on a drive to the hoop did stick his leg out and contacted a Cav while shooting and instead of Foul shots for Nate it was called a offensive foul. Then Shaq got T'd and then they took the lead. We just never could get it back. Did cut it to 3 with over a minute to go but a Turnover by Davis and a score by the Cavs pretty much sealed it.
Aside from Davis, bench did very little, Daniels was OK. Nate so so, Jermaine is still finding himself and has yet to accomplish that. Von Wafer played passed on a couple of open looks then sat.

Long journey and we stubbed our collective toe in this one.

Minutes were much more acceptable levels with RA getting 35. PP and KG were 33 and 29 respectively.

Cleveland is not a bad team and of course played with the emotion that we showed the evening before. They do have some spot up three shooters that were left wide open too often.

Only the second game, coulda won if we played just a triffle better. Still too many turnovers.

beat

[sinus007]

Hi,
The intensity was not there. I have 2 theories: (a) Celtics spent it all the night before and (b) they decided to let this game slip just to send a message to Heat. Or, maybe, they just underestimated Cavs.
I was surprised to see VW in the rotation (almost 7 min) and no Erden, especially after O'Neals got in foul trouble. VW looked almost as clueless as JON.
On the positive side KG looked really strong on the boards.
Oh well..... I hope Doc made sure that they know how pathetic they looked last night.

AK

[mrkleen09]

I almost think that the better Rajon scores, the worse the team does. He is a spectacular player - but when he is really "on" - the team just stands around and watches him, and the offensive flow is never really established.

They never got the inside game going. Cleveland has no inside defense - they should have pounded the ball into Shaq the first 5 times down the court and set the tone. Nice to see KG hitting jumpers, but they are getting further and further out...we need to get on the block at least here and there.

Intensity was not there for the most part. Pierce and Allen looked like they thought they could just flip the switch in the 4th and when they went to hit the switch, the lights didnt come back on like they usually do.

Refs made some VERY strange calls. That shot by Parker was AT LEAST 2 or 3 seconds...he caught the ball, put it down, pulled up and shot - you cannot do all that in 1 second...Doc was livid.

They showed Jermaine O'Neil no respect....and I was very surprised. People were just throwing their bodies into a 12+ year veteran and they were giving the young guys the calls. Not happy at all about that.

Overall, the Celtics will be just fine. Everyone has an off night. Not worried about it at all.

[beat]

Mrkleen

Intersting point on that shot clock question. There was 1 second on the shot clock. Now does that mean :01.9 or :01.0, Meaning could there really have been closer to 2 seconds. SO does :00 really mean :00 or could there be up to 9/10ths of a second left?

Earlier baby made the long 3 and replays showed it was just touching his fingertip as the lights went on and the clock read .00. That was probably the correct call.

One thing that has always bothered me about these timing issues iis not so much the end of the play but DOES the clock START when it should?

In that the shot clock expires much more frequently that the game clock why not have the final 10 second count down in 10ths like the game clock does in the last minute. Couldn't be that hard to do.

Back in college i got to run the score clock for all the hockey and basketball games. Had great place to watch plus got paid $5 a game which was usually spend on liquid refreshments after. (a pitcher of beer could be had for a buck then) Anyway in learnign to run the score clocks for both I discovered it was intirely possible fot the clock to read :00 and NO horn sounded. Meaning there were anywhere from :009 to :001 seconds remaining. There was one basketball game against Oswego when there was some rebounding action under there hoop and the ball went out of bouds and I stopped the clock. The time read :00 but there was no horn. The ref cam over and asked me as the 1/2 is to end on the HORN! ZTold him the way the clock worked and that there was time but it was less than a second. He was OK and let them inbound the ball and of course they got a tip. Our coach was none to happy with me.

Anyway seems the NBA really should be able to check as to if the clock was started appropriately on thes matters of a couple of seconds. Really not so much an issue when there is more than that on the clock anyway.

beat

[cowens/oldschool]

Only glimmer was KG's rebounding,he looked great springing up for those boards,big difference already from last year.Pierce missed his closer shots,it happens.Surprised Nates shooting off 2 games in a row,we need Delonte,if Paul or Ray's shooting is off,need other shooters to step up.

Saddest thing was Leon not getting any playing time.....what a shame.

[gyso]

On one of Jermaine's fouls, the Celtics were bring the ball up and his man stopped near the top of the key. Jermaine just ran into him and knocked him back.

On at least two of Jermaine's fouls, he was trying to set up on the block and put both arms out to create separation. The ref was standing right there and couldn't miss it.

I hope he comes out of his funk, he looked like a rookie out there.

We never saw Semih at all. Given how good he looked in the preseason and that we really needed him because of the foul trouble, that doesn't bode well, IMO. Is his rotator cuff issue worse than we were led to believe?

Did Leon not play because he still isn't totally back from his knee surgery? I thought he was interviewed in the pregame, but since it was raining, my Dish Network lost the signal. Does anyone know why he isnt getting any playing time?

KG got caught setting moving picks. (I guess the refs miss Perk.) I read somewhere where they said that KG moves most of the time and gets away with it. Anyway, I watched him last night and he does stick his leg out and leans into the pick. He does this quite often.

[Outside]

KG got caught setting moving picks. (I guess the refs miss Perk.)

I got a chuckle out of that. Good one.

I read somewhere where they said that KG moves most of the time and gets away with it. Anyway, I watched him last night and he does stick his leg out and leans into the pick. He does this quite often.

I didn't see the game against the Cavs (I'm a Giant fan, so the World Series trumps basketball for the next week), but I did notice when KG got called for a moving screen against the Heat. It was sort of sloppy on his part -- he was moving, the cutter (Ray? not sure) was moving, then KG stopped sideways to the cutter and stuck his butt out. Although different, it sounds sort of like your description of sticking his leg out or leaning into the pick rather than just setting a solid screen. I usually think of most NBA moving screens as 1) set the pick, then 2) reset the pick, then 3) keep resetting the pick until you for all intents and purposes are moving continuously, just in a quantum mechanics sort of way; or the simplified version, which is 1) set the pick, then 2) reset the pick right as the cutter's man is going by. That's what I see lots of NBA players do, including Perk. I find KG's methods much sneakier, but the refs are probably aware of it by now.

[MDCelticsFan]

The shot Parker was allowed to launch was ridiculus. You can't do everything he did in one second. I thought Cleveland outworked us and out hustled us especially in the 4th Qtr. Hickson looked very good for the Cavs. Jermaine was anemic. I hope he starts coming around soon. Celts should have stuck with miss matches in the post instead of launching J's. Losing is a terrible option. However, after James crapped on the city of Cleveland and the state of Ohio, I give Cavs fans, players, and organization credit for rallying behind team and civic pride. This is one game the Cavs and their fans truly deserve. Don't forget, Byron Scott is a decided upgrade from Mike Brown as a coach. Doc better commit to a deeper bench 35+ min. back to back for Ray & PP is too much. Ray's 3's were off in the 4th Qtr. and Pierce reverted to some unecessay hero ball-Big Baby was, well---BIG!-MD!

[mrkleen09]

Great Quote from Shaq. Will probably cost him some money, but who cares...he has got it.

Shaquille O’Neal warned this month that NBA officials are going to become so powerful because of the crackdown on player reaction to calls that their jerseys should be available at Foot Locker.

After getting issued a technical foul during the fourth quarter of last night’s 95-87 loss to the Cavaliers, O’Neal may search for a particular jersey.

Referee Bob Delaney whistled Nate Robinson for a technical when he kneed Ryan Hollins in the groin area on a drive to the basket with the Celtics leading, 77-76, with 8:32 left. O’Neal was then whistled for an additional technical for arguing the call. Television replays showed that Robinson, who is 5 feet 9 inches, tried to clear space to convert a layup against the 7-foot Hollins. After the game, Robinson claimed the contact was accidental.

“Bob said I made an overt act,’’ O’Neal said. “But I was just trying to explain why Nate kicked [Hollins]. I’ve gotta go and get my Bob Delaney jersey when I get home. I am going to go and order that.’’

[dboss]

Welcome to the 2010-11 season.

I am not going to restate the obvious.

The Celtics played well enough to win a 3 qtr game. Overall, horrible pace to the game, not enough looks insides, bad timing on the techs, and a cold shooting night for Ray (0-5 from 3) and below average officiating.

What to like

KG's 15 rebounds
baby looking more and more like the needed 6th man.
Rondo's stat line minus the fact that Shaq got very few looks.

If I had time to do a pregame review I would have highlighted how well JJ has been playing for them.

Got the Knicks all lined up for tomorrow!

dboss

[babyskyhook]

I almost think that the better Rajon scores, the worse the team does. He is a spectacular player - but when he is really "on" - the team just stands around and watches him, and the offensive flow is never really established.

Kleen-

I think you are right about that. Anytime Rondo is the Cs' leading scorer it's bad news. Same applies to Steve Nash and other elite passing pgs. When those guys are turned into mostly scorers, their teams really suffer, as they don't get a lot of the easy open looks and transition baskets that they get when the pg is in assist mode.

The Laker strategy of dealing with Nash over the years has always been to make him a scorer and concentrate on taking the other guys out of the game.

From games i've watched, the Cs really bog down offensively when Rondo is turned into a scorer, as Pierce tends to go into iso mode and KG isn't getting easy lobs at the rim.

[babyskyhook]

I didn't post it yesterday, as I didn't have time, but I thought there was a strong possibility the Cs would lose last night. Any team in their position would have had a very tough time.


An older, vet team, coming off a very emotional, playoff-like game against a team they hate, and have been itching to get at since July, when the media proclaimed the Heat the greatest thing since sliced bread, going into Cleveland on a back to back for that team's home opener. There was just no way the Cs weren't going to suffer an emotional/intensity letdown after the Heat game.

The Cavs, on the other hand, with their remaining players having been dissed repeatedly and essentially called garbage for the last four months, the Cavs players (and fans) were eager to show that they still had a solid team. And who better to prove it against outside of the Heat than the Cs, who bounced them out of the playoffs and in a way started the whole chain reaction that led to Lebron leaving.


The Cavs were playing for their NBA Championship last night, as this (and games vs the Heat) is as close as they're going to get for many years. For the Cs, it was just another reg season game, but coming on the heels of one of the few dates on their reg season schedule that they really care about, it was a recipe for a loss. In football, it would be a classic trap game.

So no surprise on the result. I think it would have happened to any team in those circumstances.

[babyskyhook]

“Bob said I made an overt act,’’ O’Neal said. “But I was just trying to explain why Nate kicked [Hollins]. I’ve gotta go and get my Bob Delaney jersey when I get home. I am going to go and order that.’’

That is hilarious. I literally laughed out loud, hearing Shaq's voice in my head as I was reading the quote.

Shaq is always good for some really strong laughs. He's the best entertainer (with Barkley a close second) in NBA history.


You guys are going to enjoy his presence the next two years.

[RosalieTCeltics]

And we thought that we were going to miss some of Rasheed's crazy comments? Shaq is moving right in.

This whole tech thing will slow down eventually, or Stern is going to hear the rath from fans all over. I just want to know, have any of the Heat gotten a tech yet. The other night Bosh was crying about a foul, the ref just turned his back to him. I will be very interested in how this team is treated this year.
ESPN has already adopted them as their bread and butter team. Kind of sickening. I am so glad they still have radio announcers because all I do is
shut the voice down and listen to the Celts announcers on the radio. Much
more enjoyable, even though there is a 10 second delay from radio to tv.
I know ahead of the television viewers what happened. My husband refuses to watch the games with me when I have the radio on. Just an
old habit that won't die!

[worcester]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

[Sam]

Mrkleen,

I've been saying that for some time. With some exceptions, such as the triangle system, the PG's primary job is to be a catalyst. If he also scores, fine. But his duties as catalyst do not end with his assist total. They're also reflected in things like setting and sustaining the game pace and other factors that will ensure a lot of points for his teammates without his necessarily assisting.

I've always believed that PG is the one position for which performance can LEAST be evaluated statistically.

Sam

[beat]

Sam this was posted on Red's Army a little bit ago, sort of rings with what you just pointed out..................beat

The Celtics have 39 turnovers in 2 games.

That's a lot. Too many. And Zach Lowe (in his new role on SI's "Point Forward") finds one person largely responsible: Rajon Rondo

After watching all 197 of Boston’s transition turnovers (no, really. I did. And it was torture) from last season, there is one uncomfortable yet inescapable conclusion:

It is largely Rajon Rondo’s fault. To be clear, he is a fantastic player whose creativity fuels just about all of Boston’s half-court offense, and he is excellent at one specific transition play — dribbling into the foul line area and shoveling the ball to a trailing three-point shooter. His expertise on this play could single-handedly prolong Ray Allen’s career. But the rest of his transition game needs lots and lots of work.

The overall Synergy stats back me up: Rondo produced just 0.99 points per possession on fast breaks he finished (with a turnover or a shot, mostly), a mark that ranked 245th in the league. Official scorers blamed Rondo for 73 of those 197 turnovers (37 percent), but it was really worse than that. Many turnovers assigned to others were actually Rondo’s fault.

Zach goes on to lay out his argument, so read the whole thing before you react. And Zach does also make a point to mention that in the halfcourt, Rondo can be as good as anyone. So to be fair to Zach, this is definitely a critique of Rondo's game rather than a slam on his turnovers.

But do you notice something lacking in Rajon's transition game? And if something is lacking with Rondo in the transition game... how much of it is his fault? Is he expecting too much from older players... or maybe players who aren't as athletic (like Kendrick Perkins).

The bottom line here is Rondo is still young and developing. He does take chances. He takes them on both ends of the court. But is the risk worth the reward?

[LACELTFAN]

Damn, the C's aren't going to go undefeated this year...I guess I can live with one loss...

[Sam]

Beat, that's an interesting question. As you know, I consider myself a PG aficionado, having cut my basketball teeth courtesy of one Robert Joseph Cousy. And I have never retracted my comment, after Rondo's very first preseason game with the Celtics, that his open court passing game is reminiscent of The Cooz.

Actually, in terms of playmaking skills (as distinct from shooting ability), I guess I differ from Zach in that I consider halfcourt offense Rondo's weakest area. The biggest difference in the halfcourt between Rondo and Cousy (whom I have to use as my yardstick because he was unquestionably light years ahead of anyone else who ever laced them up as a pure, strategic playmaker) is that Rondo is more reactive. He sees something happen; and, in a split second, he attempts to capitalize on it. The very suddenness of the play makes it a game of odds; sometimes it works (and often looks spectacular)...sometimes it doesn't (often catching teammates as much as opponents by surprise).

In contrast, Cousy was more proactive. His unparalleled combination of extraordinary peripheral vision and anticipatory abilities dramatically increased the odds that his halfcourt gambits would work. He has described how he would plan two or three moves ahead (and I mean moves he knew other players—both teammates and opponents—would probably make). That kind of anticipation allowed Cooz to position himself so as to have the most advantageous passing angle when an opportunity opened up. Even when he was in the middle of some outrageous move, he was seldom caught by surprise at the end of it because it was part of a calculated plan.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Rondo vs. Cousy thing. I mean everyone knows that Rondo excels in many areas. Heck, who ever heard of a PG averaging 5.1 rebounds a game? I mean, Cousy averaged only 5.2 rpg. Oops!

Anyway, my point is that Rondo leverages his physical attributes—notably speed and reflexes—so that being a reactive PG works pretty well for him...certainly well enough to win one championship and come within a hair of a second. But, for my taste, there's too much responsibility placed on his teammates to create opportunities for him. When the team stands around or doesn't sufficiently space the floor or swing the ball, the offense stagnates because they're not presenting Rondo with the opportunities he needs. I'd like to see him taking charge and strategizing to create more opportunities for them.

As for the transition game, I look at that as consisting of two ingredients: the fast break and the pushing of the ball irrespective of the break. I still think open court passing is Rondo's strongest suit; and the occasional fast breaks of the starters can be pretty impressive, with Rondo as the principal catalyst. But, among the starters, the fast break is definitely the exception rather than anything approaching the rule; and it doesn't seem to be something that comes naturally to them, so there's no reliable pattern to it. Consequently, too many break opportunities go awry. For one thing, they (including Rondo) need to learn when the extra pass is good and when it's not.

Lack of pushing the ball (and now I'm NOT talking about the fast break) the majority of the time is perhaps my number one gripe about the Celtics. I'd wager that they sacrifice at least 10 points a game by not getting into their halfcourt offense faster than they often do. When his teammates are downcourt ahead of him, this is Rondo's fault. When he's ahead of his teammates, it's their fault.

I want to go to the bathroom every time Rondo walks up and pounds the ball. But, if I did so, many of them would be dry runs. That scenario is the epitome of everything about defective offense that grates on me: allowing opponents to hunker down on defense and cheat toward the passing lanes; Celtics standing around so as to deny Rondo decent passing angles; lack of swinging the ball to take advantage of double teams and spacing; no pick and rolls. Just awful. To a large extent, I believe this is Doc's responsibility. But the PG has to bear some responsibility because he's the orchestra conductor.

I say all of this despite the fact that Rondo is still my favorite current Celtic. I believe he has vast potential and is smart enough to take increasing advantage of it. But you're asking about the status quo. And I'd give him a current rating of B- or C+ in terms of how he runs the team versus what the possibilities are. He's got the physical part down to an astonishing degree (his shooting has never bothered me). What's missing is more on the mental/strategic side.

Sam

[beat]

Sam's quote

Lack of pushing the ball (and now I'm NOT talking about the fast break) the majority of the time is perhaps my number one gripe about the Celtics. I'd wager that they sacrifice at least 10 points a game by not getting into their halfcourt offense faster than they often do. When his teammates are downcourt ahead of him, this is Rondo's fault. When he's ahead of his teammates, it's their fault.

I want to go to the bathroom every time Rondo walks up and pounds the ball. But, if I did so, many of them would be dry runs.


That's a big concern of mine. Make the other team pay. Get a few more easier hoops with better quality shots. Hard to do when the player with the ball is the LAST one across half court.

Seems too often we are under the gun to get a look. Most of the blame lies with the players but some has to fall on Doc. And of the players on the court Rondo has the ball most of the time to start the possession so a larger part of this falls on him.

Beyond the point we certainly need to utilize Shaq in the post a bit more. For the minutes he's in he's not getting enough touches. If there is no double he has a better than even chance of scoring or drawing a foul, If there is a double then the firedrill begins on the defensive end as they scramble to cover the open man.

Overall for 2 games the shooting has been poor. And part of that is due to no flow on offense. More movement = better shots = higher percentage, and there is the 10 points you talk about, and most of that starts and ends with Rondo.

beat

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