Jimmy Butler vs. Jayson Tatum for ECF MVP

Here are the stats per game and total:

Jimmy: Points - 26.3 ppg (184) RB pg - 7 (49) Ast pg- 2.5 (18)

Jayson: Points - 25.0 ppg (175) RB pg - 8.2 (59) Ast pg - 5.5 (39)

I'm affirming Jayson as the MVP.

Great competitive battle between two star players.

One a long time veteran still capable of top level play and carrying a game when his team is having a down game.

The other a young and emerging league-wide marquee player, silencing early critics and showing he too can carry the load for his team.

This was a strange series in terms of the alternating wins and blowouts. Tatum and Butler also made it among the most entertaining Celtic postseason matchups in a very long time. Maybe among the tops ever.

And let us not overlook what Jaylen did,

He outshot both of them from the field and from behind the arc.

Jaylen: Points - 24.1 PPG (169) RB pg - 7.1 (50) Ast pg- 3.0 (21)

dboss wrote:And let us not overlook what Jaylen did,

He outshot both of them from the field and from behind the arc.  

Jaylen: Points - 24.1 PPG  (169) RB pg - 7.1 (50) Ast pg- 3.0 (21)

I don’t know, dboss. I’m just not that thrilled with Jalen overall in the postseason, and against Miami in particular. I consider his performance the worst with a high scoring average I’ve ever seen. His high shooting volume included so many poor, missed shots, both from range and a few in the paint, that I question his decision making. His handle seems to have deteriorated as well. His new specialty might be dribbling off his foot. How many passes can one complete well over the receiver’s head? He cost us at least one game vs Miami.

I think if Jalen doesn’t get his head out of his… well, let’s say doesn’t get his head in a better place, we’re going to have bigger problems with the Warriors than they normally present.

NYCelt wrote:

dboss wrote:And let us not overlook what Jaylen did,

He outshot both of them from the field and from behind the arc.  

Jaylen: Points - 24.1 PPG  (169) RB pg - 7.1 (50) Ast pg- 3.0 (21)

I don’t know, dboss. I’m just not that thrilled with Jalen overall in the postseason, and against Miami in particular. I consider his performance the worst with a high scoring average I’ve ever seen. His high shooting volume included so many poor, missed shots, both from range and a few in the paint, that I question his decision making. His handle seems to have deteriorated as well. His new specialty might be dribbling off his foot. How many passes can one complete well over the receiver’s head? He cost us at least one game vs Miami.

I think if Jalen doesn’t get his head out of his… well, let’s say doesn’t get his head in a better place, we’re going to have bigger problems with the Warriors than they normally present.

I totally agree with that, Jaylen was having a lot of problems with his handle and decision making, but so to equally was Tatum. Both made numerous turnovers, Tatum with some boneheaded passes right at the defense. Both cost us at least a game, can they learn fast enough to not make too much of those same mistakes this series?

All that's going to fall on the point guard, Marcus, at this point. It's his job to get the ball in the 2 J's hands just before they shoot, not to have the 2 J's holding/dribbling the ball for 6-18 seconds after Marcus passes the ball to them. That's not going to change unfortunately over this next series and will be something that is worked on over the summer. It's improved significantly over since the beginning of last season with them beginning to give up the ball with the double teams, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be.

db

I disagree, I didn’t see as many of those same turnovers vs the Nets and Bucks. Miami has wide pitbull defenders in Butler, Tucker and Olidipo, they were getting under the J’s at times. J’s will still make some turnovers, but see them cleaning it up, compared to Heat series. GS also can go thru stretches of their own turnover issues and they haven’t seen a defense with our size and versatility. I see our defense creating some havoc and running opportunities off of that.

Both of the Jays struggled at times.  In the Heat series, Jaylen averaged 3.3 TO per game and Jayson had 4.7 per game.  Their decision making at times was bad.

Jayson won the MVP award and deservedly so but Jaylen was right there with Jayson in terms of impact.

JT  25 PPG, JB 24.1 PPG
JT  8.3 RPG, JB 7.1 RPG
JT  5.6 APG, JB 3.0 APG
JT  4.7 TO's, JB 3.3 TO

JT 47.6% FG, 36.7% 3PFG, 85% FT
JB 48.7% FG, 38.0% 3PFG, 64.3% FT

These numbers are from the ECF series.  JT is our #1 and JB is our #2.  There really is not a wide gap between them.  That is the reason why I said let's not forget about Jaylen.

We do not get to the finals without their pairing.

The Celtics will need BOTH of them to play great against GS.

I agree with both DB and Cow. Both of you are right.

It is the job of Marcus Smart to get the Celtics into their offense and feed the Jays in particular but keep in mind that Marcus has been banged up quite a bit and the ankle injury could have knocked him out of the playoffs entirely. Jaylen is less than 100% because of the hammy and Jayson has the shoulder injury. It seems everyone is nursing some sort of discomfort.

The Warriors turn the ball over 14.8 times per game (16 games and Boston is at 14 (18 games) Miami was a very difficult team to beat and their on the ball defense was great.

GS will be even more difficult because they can really score the basketball.

I certainly don't see Curry or anyone on their team driving down the lane and making any shots like the Warriors have in their other series.  The No Lay Up Rule will be invoked a couple of times until GS resorts to what got them through the 2010's...winning and now dying by the three.  3's only work if you're wide open, then it becomes like practice.  You can make open 3's all day.  Once GS realizes they can't score inside and they are being hounded on their 3's for 48 minutes and having to play defense, the proverbial legs will begin to wobble just like EVERY OTHER TEAM we've played so far where the 3's become bricks.  What's our opponent's 3-point shot percentage so far?  If it's in the very low 30's I'd be stupefied.  I'm going to go mid-high 20's.  But when you play in the no-defense West, you get a lot of open look threes and all the sudden look really good.  Again, Ime will choke off the head of the GSW snake, 3's and free throw lane.  This will be fun to watch.  Steve Kerr will find something to whine about.

It's all about defense and exposure.  We don't need great offense to win.  GS hangs their hat on their 3's and recently, they've been driving down the wide open free throw lane to score easy buckets. But that ship has now sailed. They have to score great to win. Our defense will set the tone.  Defense carries from game to game.  Offense clearly does not.  Are the Warriors the best offensive team we've faced so far? Absolutely. But it's time to expose the fraud that is the Golden State Warriors. We have our Kryptonite, they have theirs. Nobody's perfect. Who can get the other team off their game first? I'd push all-in on the Celtics knocking them off theirs more consistently since it's going to be helter-skelter on the GSW side once their two main options of scoring are locked up.  

db

The ankle injury, not withstanding, we need the more efficient Marcus Smart.

In the past 2 games Marcus launched 19 (3) point shots while connecting on 4.  That is 21%  he played in 5 games vs the Heat and shot 34.8% from the field and 28.2% from deep.

We came razor close to losing game 7 because Marcus could not make a shot but he just keep on shooting them.  He put up 22 FGA in the game which was more than anyone else.  

Steph Curry he is not.

If you wanted to throw stats out the window and just look at each game and the contribution of a player helping. almost making sure of a W, the vote should have gone to Al Horford. How many clutch plays did he force, how many rebounds that forced Miami to scramble at the end,of quarters, games, etc. It seemed like just when the game looked like it was going to slip away, Al pulled a play out of his bag of tricks.. I do not care about how many shots he hit, I just know he was THERE when we needed him. No Al, no W in any of the series we played



al.

As much as I ripped him, Derek White is going to be a key performer in this series to help out Smart on the perimeter. Our perimeter defense as dbrown pointed out is tops in the league. What also makes the J’s special is their ability on the perimeter and their ability to lock up points. Mr Curry is going to be seeing 4 great perimeter defenders right in his face. While GS has some very good fast defenders, they don’t have the pitbulls of the Heat. Plus Adebayo is a demon of a big defender and no one is as annoying a pest as Lowry. They have Draymond, but Bam is the better defender. I see our offense having less problems with GS than Miami. Also this extra time off between games can only be great for us, league finally came to their senses, it’s better to have the players fresh for a better product than all stuck in the mud, playing thru exhaustion.

dboss wrote:The ankle injury, not withstanding, we need the more efficient Marcus Smart.

In the past 2 games Marcus launched 19 (3) point shots while connecting on 4.  That is 21%  he played in 5 games vs the Heat and shot 34.8% from the field and 28.2% from deep.

We came razor close to losing game 7 because Marcus could not make a shot but he just keep on shooting them.  He put up 22 FGA in the game which was more than anyone else.  

Steph Curry he is not.

That late game execution was mind boggling and almost cost us a trip to the Finals. J’s should have took more control and demanded the ball and Ime should have called a TO to settle the team down, can’t believe how close we came to giving another game away, and in a game 7. Hope these late game situations/things are being worked on right now at practice….we can’t give any games away.

db

GS is not a fraud team by any stretch.

This should be a competitive series.  I expect Boston to go into this series with a great deal of respect for their opponent.  The Mavs were an excellent defensive team all year and in the playoffs but GS still averaged 115 points per game against them.

So far our opponents are shooting 31.7% from deep and 43.3% overall.

GS opponents have shot 36.5% from deep and 44.1% overall.

These stats reflect the fact that Boston is the better defensive team. That is the main reason why we have a good opportunity to win.

I saw a post elsewhere where the high turnover numbers for Jaylen and Jayson were put into perspective.  While I'm not so good at advanced statistics, I'll try to explain the jist of it.

Much of it is about touches and time of possession, IN THE PLAYOFFS.  The Two Jays have very high numbers for touches and also a very high TOPs.  When compared to other players in the league that have similar counting numbers in those two categories, the Two Jays turnover rates don't stand out as excessive.  

In the playoffs, another force that drives the turnover counting number even higher is the fact that both players' playing time has increased well into the 40's.  The combination of high minutes, high touches and high TOPs along with playoff style defenses have driven up the turnover counting numbers of the Two Jays.

What other players has this happened to in the playoffs?  The other team's stars, that's who.  The Two Jays turnover counting numbers are right in the middle of the pack when compared to other heavy usage stars in the playoffs.

Our two all-star players have been tasked with evolving their game from being iso-domination scorers to ball sharing point production players.  We still want them to score at the same rate as before, but now their assist counting numbers have increased.  I believe Jayson has had the better success so far, but Jaylen is learning.  He doesn't blindly drive between the defenders so much.  He's more likely to probe the defense with a short drive, reset and either finish the drive to the hoop or set himself up with a mid-range jumper.

Long story short, I'm not all that worried about either of them long term.

Great points gyso

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:The ankle injury, not withstanding, we need the more efficient Marcus Smart.

In the past 2 games Marcus launched 19 (3) point shots while connecting on 4.  That is 21%  he played in 5 games vs the Heat and shot 34.8% from the field and 28.2% from deep.

We came razor close to losing game 7 because Marcus could not make a shot but he just keep on shooting them.  He put up 22 FGA in the game which was more than anyone else.  

Steph Curry he is not.

That late game execution was mind boggling and almost cost us a trip to the Finals. J’s should have took more control and demanded the ball and Ime should have called a TO to settle the team down, can’t believe how close we came to giving another game away, and in a game 7. Hope these late game situations/things are being worked on right now at practice….we can’t give any games away.

Cowens

Coach Udoka has a deep deep book of plays to choose from.  I do not know why he did not call a timeout sooner.  Even after the timeout there was little evidence of a quality run play

We were up 98-87 with 2:50 remaining.  Marcus took 3 three point shots and a 12 foot pull up, all misses before Ime called a time out with 52.4 seconds remaining.  

Coming out of the timeout Jaylen gets called for a very questionable offensive foul and max drains a 3 cutting the lead to only 2 points.  Marcus then attempts an out of control no chance layup that misses badly.

Marcus went 0-5 in a span of 2 and 1/2 minutes.

I sure hope a lesson has been learned after squeaking by a determined Heat team.

That's a very enlightening point of view, gyso.  Explains a lot.  

dboss, perhaps I chose my words unwisely.  GS has had a far easier trip to the Finals than we did.  No argument there.  For that easier trip and the subsequent delusions of grandeur that they now belong back in the Finals and roll in as faves, they're about to have a whole can of whoopass opened up on not only their threes but also anything in the lane.  And when there's no play Plan C for scoring, someone or better yet, some team is going to get exposed to the max and shut down.  

Let's just say, Golden State is going to have that look on their faces you get at Christmas when you open up a package and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the one you have been wanting and asking for all year long. Instead, it turns out to be Brute...By Faberge with all kids name on it. Steve Kerr, Steph Curry, Draymond Green Klay Thompson all in unison say, "This isn't what we wanted!!"

Ok, that's better!!

db

dbrown,

This is what was in that package.  LOL

Very funny!! Yes! That's the shirt!! I'm guessing you caught the Eddie Murphy bit in there...

Nobody wants to see Boston in the Finals at 17-4.

db

Where'd you find that shirt, gyso? I may have to order that one with a favorable outcome in two weeks!

db

dboss wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:The ankle injury, not withstanding, we need the more efficient Marcus Smart.

In the past 2 games Marcus launched 19 (3) point shots while connecting on 4.  That is 21%  he played in 5 games vs the Heat and shot 34.8% from the field and 28.2% from deep.

We came razor close to losing game 7 because Marcus could not make a shot but he just keep on shooting them.  He put up 22 FGA in the game which was more than anyone else.  

Steph Curry he is not.

That late game execution was mind boggling and almost cost us a trip to the Finals. J’s should have took more control and demanded the ball and Ime should have called a TO to settle the team down, can’t believe how close we came to giving another game away, and in a game 7. Hope these late game situations/things are being worked on right now at practice….we can’t give any games away.

Cowens

Coach Udoka has a deep deep book of plays to choose from.  I do not know why he did not call a timeout sooner.  Even after the timeout there was little evidence of a quality run play

We were up 98-87 with 2:50 remaining.  Marcus took 3 three point shots and a 12 foot pull up, all misses before Ime called a time out with 52.4 seconds remaining.  

Coming out of the timeout Jaylen gets called for a very questionable offensive foul and max drains a 3 cutting the lead to only 2 points.  Marcus then attempts an out of control no chance layup that misses badly.

Marcus went 0-5 in a span of 2 and 1/2 minutes.

I sure hope a lesson has been learned after squeaking by a determined Heat team.

That sequence was a travesty, thank god the basketball gods were on our side when Butler missed that 3….INEXCUSABLE IMHO

This morning I heard Brian Scalabrine - of all people - make the most cogent analysis I've heard of the Celtics turnaround in 2022. Prior to Marcus (0-5) Smart calling out the J's for not passing the ball enough Jaylen had spent 750 minutes this season on the court with Jayson. Guess how many times he passed the ball to Jayson in that span?

Three! Yes, only three times. After Marcus' meeting, Jaylen was made aware of that stat, and he started passing to Jayson more frequently. The rest is history.

dbrown4 wrote:Where'd you find that shirt, gyso?  I may have to order that one with a favorable outcome in two weeks!

db

Search these words, "still want Boston shirts" and follow one of the resulting links.