Re: POST GAME - PLAYOFF ROUND 4 - FINALS - GAME 4 - GOLDEN STATE - HOME

by **Ktron** Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:04 pm

bobheckler wrote:We shot 40%. We shot 40% overall and 40% from 3 and 40% from 2. Our 3pt shooting was fine. Our 34 3pt fgas out of 85 total fgas (40%) is about par for the course in today's NBA. The problem is one two many "40s" and, clearly, it was out shooting from close. We're the bigger team. We should be shooting better inside, certainly better than the smaller team. The Dubs shot 52% from 2.

It's hard for any team to win when Steph is shooting like that. 43 points on 14-26, 7-14 from 3, on one good ankle is how MVPs play in must-win games. 8-23 and 6 turnovers isn't.

And a lot of Tatum's turnovers were him being sloppy or slow. He holds the ball too long. In crunch time Marcus Smart was deferring to Tatum, giving him the ball and letting him run the offense. You asked to be the starting point guard didn't you, Marcus? Great. Then be it. Demand the ball, direct the offense.

They were more physical than us. There's no excuse for that at home. Period.

The Forsberg tweet, 2-12 and a turnover is what killed us. Two blown layups and a missed 2. 9 of those 12 were 3s, two were made. We shot 22% from 3 and oh-fer-3 from 2. The shot mix, alone, is upside down. It is way too 3-happy and, for most of this period, we weren't desperate for those extra points. We just needed to put the ball in the hoop and get some stops.

I have to put some of the blame from this loss on Ime. He's the one who is deciding to run the offense through Tatum. He's the one who's not calling plays that go inside more. He's the one who didn't realize that, when Steph (or Klay) is in his zone you must get the ball out of his hands. Force Looney or Green or even Wiggins to beat you. We didn't do that. We kept letting Steph and Klay come off screens to their right and didn't get right up on their right hands. Double Steph. Make him pass out over a big but do not let him throw the ball up at the rim when he's as unconscious as he was last night. It'll go in. In horizontal, in mid-air, flying backwards with his feet up like an old TV rabbit ear antenna, it'll go in.

I think the question of whether Steph's ankle is ok got answered too.

Ok, so it's 2-2. It's a 2-out-of-3 series with 2 in the Chase Center and we're a very good playoff road team who has not lost two in a row, neither at home or away or any combination of the two, the entire playoffs. This game was far more important to them than us, but Game 5 is big for both of us. If we want to be Champions, and deserve to be that, how we respond in Game 5 will be the bellweather.

Bob

Ime didnt “let them” do everything you noted. When they didn't come on the screen Ime was in their ass. It was obvious. I’m surprised that you didn't see that.
In his pressor he stated that he wasn’t that concerned about Curry scoring and that if we ran our offense the way they were supposed to do the last 5-6 minutes we still would have won despite Curry’s 43.

.

by **112288** Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:12 pm

gyso wrote:We got 99 problems and this ain't one of them.

Only one big problem last night - Tatum - 6 TO's , could not finish at the rim if his life depended on it, could even execute a step back shot in the paint. (Brown sank multiple step backs last night when it counted), and could not hit a 3 pointer when the game was on the line. Perhaps Ducey can tell his father how to fix a sucky performance!

BTW no other kid was on the court from both teams except his. There is a time and a place for things like that but not the playoffs and especially the NBS Finals!

That goes as far back in Celtic history. Name one who had their kid on the court in an NBA finals except him? He needed to be focusing on the GAME plan instead!

I rest my case.

112288

by **112288** Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:13 pm

gyso wrote:We got 99 problems and this ain't one of them.

Only one big problem last night - Tatum - 6 TO's , could not finish at the rim if his life depended on it, could even execute a step back shot in the paint. (Brown sank multiple step backs last night when it counted), and could not hit a 3 pointer when the game was on the line. Perhaps Ducey can tell his father how to fix a sucky performance!

BTW no other kid was on the court from both teams except his. There is a time and a place for things like that but not the playoffs and especially the NBS Finals!

That goes as far back in Celtic history. Name one who had their kid on the court in an NBA finals except him? He needed to be focusing on the GAME plan instead!

I rest my case.

112288

by **worcester** Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:13 pm

Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?

by **Ktron** Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:14 pm

worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?

Why would he need to do that?

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:04 am

Because two heads are better than one.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:07 am

Did Danny consult with Brad? Did Red consult with Russ and Tommy and KC and Bill Fitch? Just wondering.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:09 am

Ktron wrote:
worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?
Why would he need to do that?

Because we just blew a crucial game and make the same mistakes/turnovers all the time in this series, we should be up 3-1. Also Tatum is shooting around 33% this Final and even worse in 4th quarter, any insight that could fix this from his former coach could only help IMHO.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:53 am

My thoughts exactly Cow.

By the way, i have a new patient, a former 12 year NBA player and ex-coach of two NBA teams who is a big Celtics fan even though he never played for Boston. He sees the same thing we do. Great defense but a too stagnant offense at times. Maybe Ime's got this. Maybe he gets enough input from his assistants. Whatever the case there can be no repeat of last game's 4th Q.

by **Ktron** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:23 pm

worcester wrote:Did Danny consult with Brad? Did Red consult with Russ and Tommy and KC and Bill Fitch? Just wondering.

2 heads are not always better than one. This team has gone further in one year than it had in 6 years under Brad yet doubt creeps in on our coaches ability after a big loss.
I’m sure they consult with each other but I’m puzzled as to why anyone feels they need to ask the question.
Is the Head coach supposed to run upstairs every time things don’t go right?
That’s what Brad and the owners hired Ime to do- figure it out.

by **Ktron** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:27 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?
Why would he need to do that?

Because we just blew a crucial game and make the same mistakes/turnovers all the time in this series, we should be up 3-1. Also Tatum is shooting around 33% this Final and even worse in 4th quarter, any insight that could fix this from his former coach could only help IMHO.

Oh and Brad has the answers? Brad couldn’t figure it out in 6 yrs. I’d call Pop or One of my other mentors if I had to before I’d call Brad. And if I’m Brad I want you to do the job you’re hired to do and not blow up my phone everything there’s a serious issue.
It comes down to trusting the head coach and apparently even though we are 2 wins away from a title in a supposedly “bridge year”. There is still doubt about Ime’s ability.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:31 pm

Ktron wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?
Why would he need to do that?

Because we just blew a crucial game and make the same mistakes/turnovers all the time in this series, we should be up 3-1. Also Tatum is shooting around 33% this Final and even worse in 4th quarter, any insight that could fix this from his former coach could only help IMHO.
Oh and Brad has the answers? Brad couldn’t figure it out in 6 yrs. I’d call Pop or Eox if I had to before I’d call Brad. And if I’m Brad I want you to do the job you’re hired to do and not blow up my phone everything there’s a serious issue.
It comes down to trusting the head coach and apparently even though we are 2 wins away from a title in a supposedly “bridge year”. There is still doubt about Ime’s ability.

If I’m Ime I welcome the advise, this isn’t about how far Brad took them, it’s about any advice that can get us out of bad patterns or over the hump.

by **Ktron** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:35 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?
Why would he need to do that?

Because we just blew a crucial game and make the same mistakes/turnovers all the time in this series, we should be up 3-1. Also Tatum is shooting around 33% this Final and even worse in 4th quarter, any insight that could fix this from his former coach could only help IMHO.
Oh and Brad has the answers? Brad couldn’t figure it out in 6 yrs. I’d call Pop or Eox if I had to before I’d call Brad. And if I’m Brad I want you to do the job you’re hired to do and not blow up my phone everything there’s a serious issue.
It comes down to trusting the head coach and apparently even though we are 2 wins away from a title in a supposedly “bridge year”. There is still doubt about Ime’s ability.

If I’m Ime I welcome the advise, this isn’t about how far Brad took them, it’s about any advice that can get us out of bad patterns or over the hump.

Soooo he should call on the person you called an idiot for running a zone with .5 left on the clock?

by **Ktron** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:40 pm

Y’all are missing my initial point.
Of course Ime consults with others. That’s what coaches do.
My issue is that after the last loss certain folks feel that Ime has to reach out to someone else. It displays a lack of trust. Even though folks rave about his success, 1 bad loss and the questioning of whether ime is consulting with Brad rears it’s head.
That takes some examination.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:41 pm

worcester wrote:My thoughts exactly Cow.

By the way, i have a new patient, a former 12 year NBA player and ex-coach of two NBA teams who is a big Celtics fan even though he never played for Boston. He sees the same thing we do. Great defense but a too stagnant offense at times. Maybe Ime's got this. Maybe he gets enough input from his assistants. Whatever the case there can be no repeat of last game's 4th Q.

Nice the new patient, Tatum is having an underwhelming series thru 4 games, shooting 33%, we collapsed down the stretch last game. As we know from 84, you can’t give away winnable games, as it can and will bite you in the butt. The whole team, coaches, players, trainers everyone has to pick it up to pull out 2 more wins.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:43 pm

Ktron wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
Ktron wrote:
worcester wrote:Does Brad consult with Ime on Celtics game strategy?
Why would he need to do that?

Because we just blew a crucial game and make the same mistakes/turnovers all the time in this series, we should be up 3-1. Also Tatum is shooting around 33% this Final and even worse in 4th quarter, any insight that could fix this from his former coach could only help IMHO.
Oh and Brad has the answers? Brad couldn’t figure it out in 6 yrs. I’d call Pop or Eox if I had to before I’d call Brad. And if I’m Brad I want you to do the job you’re hired to do and not blow up my phone everything there’s a serious issue.
It comes down to trusting the head coach and apparently even though we are 2 wins away from a title in a supposedly “bridge year”. There is still doubt about Ime’s ability.

If I’m Ime I welcome the advise, this isn’t about how far Brad took them, it’s about any advice that can get us out of bad patterns or over the hump.

Soooo he should call on the person you called an idiot for running a zone with .5 left on the clock?

Yes, he may have some perspective that you and I are obviously not aware of, and if it leads to one more basket or rebound, it’s worth it.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:50 pm

Ktron wrote:Y’all are missing my initial point.
Of course Ime consults with others. That’s what coaches do.
My issue is that after the last loss certain folks feel that Ime has to reach out to someone else. It displays a lack of trust. Even though folks rave about his success, 1 bad loss and the questioning of whether ime is consulting with Brad rears it’s head.
That takes some examination.

Buddy it hasn’t been one bad loss, there’s been a few during this playoff run, we are so damn lucky Butler’s 3 didn’t fall. The offense in the last 2 minutes of that game were very similar to the last game, except Smart wasn’t the only one throwing up bricks. Ime has overachieved and done a great job, but we just blew a 3-1 lead and are in a dogfight and our best player has been terrible for a lot of stretches. It’s obviously not all on Ime, but he needs help or are these young guys too hotheaded and don’t need coaching?

by **Ktron** Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:07 pm

First off if you feel that Ime has overachieved than why would you be so concerned about mistakes being made. That should be expected if indeed one is “overachieving”
2nd, we didn’t blow a 3-1 lead. We never had a 3-1 lead. We blew a chance at 3-1 but that’s all part of the game. I’m sure GS feels they should be up 3-1 so that’s irrelevant.
Agree our best player is not playing as expected. As a matter of fact he’s not even playing like a 2nd team all-star. That’s on Tatum. Coaches have given him the green light and he’s not delivering. Heavy is the head that wears the crown I guess.
Ime and the staff study film and Consult with each other and our scouts. They also talk with mentors and other coaches. They’re hardly living in a box. But, even with all of the resources at coaches fingertips mistakes are made. I can’t think of one coach in the NBA that hasn’t made mistakes or miscalculated. We need to relax. Kerr is no slouch and the Warriors are good. Not as talented as we are but you don’t always win with the most talented team. You mentioned 84. A perfect example. Lakers had the most talent but we had the better team.
I’m not concerned. I’m hoping we win and I have no doubt that we have the right people in place to accomplish that.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:01 pm

I am concerned, how many times can you give away possessions and later in the game it catches up to you? How many games can you give away and it effects the series? Maybe we’re not experienced enough to play with poise in these situations, maybe Tatum and Brown are not good enough right now to carry us on their back in these situations? All I know is there is never any guarantee to get to this position again, and hope I’m wrong on that; but we better get our sh!t together really fast. Time to grow up and play the right way and put these fu(Kerr’s away.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:36 pm

Ime is a great coach, not just a good coach, but the one piece of professional advice I would hope he hears from s don't play a drop defense ever against Steph. He probably told the players as much and they did not kisten. Also he may be telling the m.j to drive for two's and possible fouls at the end of the game instead of shooting 9 3's and making only 2.

9 threes and two 2s. We lost as a result...and not just vecause if Tatum.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:36 pm

Ime is a great coach, not just a good coach, but the one piece of professional advice I would hope he hears from s don't play a drop defense ever against Steph. He probably told the players as much and they did not kisten. Also he may be telling the m.j to drive for two's and possible fouls at the end of the game instead of shooting 9 3's and making only 2.

9 threes and two 2s. We lost as a result...and not just vecause if Tatum.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:37 pm

Ime is a great coach, not just a good coach, but the one piece of professional advice I would hope he hears from someone is don't play a drop defense ever against Steph. He probably told the players as much and they did not listen. Also he may be telling them to drive for two's and possible fouls at the end of the game instead of shooting 9 3's and making only 2.

9 threes and two 2s. We lost as a result...and not just vecause of Tatum.

by **dbrown4** Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:17 pm

Given that JT has made a statement similar to 'We play best when we're under the greatest pressure', this is clearly a very true statement given our playoff history to date. Winning G4 did not fit into that mold. There was no reason for Boston to win that game other than it would put them up 3-1 and greatly benefitted us. That's it. That's not pressure. That's a convenience. A gift. A pleasant surprise. One you have to work for, but a gift for the taking nonetheless. The team's mindset is not to steamroll every game, at least the evidence before us does not lend itself to that. That's something to fix over the summer. They only seem to steamroll in games where the heat is on and our backs are against the wall.

Here's my problem with tomorrow. I don't know/believe/think/feel if a G5 in San Fran with the series tied 2-2 given Tatum's mindset (and the team's for that matter) is enough to move the needle for us to win G5. Going back to Boston DOWN 3-2 is plenty enough pressure. I'm not saying they should tank G5 just to put themselves in a precarious position just for the pressure, I'm just saying I don't see a reason for us win G5 given that mindset that only produces wins when we're under the gun/must win situation. Am I making any sense?! Probably not.

Now, possibly contrary to this line of thinking is us coming out and winning G1 on the road. The motivation there as it always is when you start out on the road is to steal a game. You know if you are on the 3-home game side and are going to win the series, you have to net +1 win on the road and you have potentially 4 opportunities to do it. We just gave that back with losing G4. We now have two more opportunities to get back that net +1 starting tomorrow. Another contrary point to that argument is MIA G5. We didn't have to win that game but as it turns out, if we hadn't won G5 with other things equal, we would be at home watching the Finals.

Enough for now. I'm going back and forth. Just trying to figure this team out from game to game. It is confounding!

One thing is for certain. One of these teams, close to midnight tomorrow night will be up 3-2 and that will be that. The only thing I see in our favor for tomorrow night is our history after a loss. If we go X-0 over the next 3 games under the win one/lose one guise, we're champions. The problem with that record is, it is the same one that Virginia faced a few years back in the NCAA losing to a 16 seed. It's X-0 until you lose one and that can happen at any time. That's why are record here is tenuous at best.

Stephen A. made a great point this week. He's picking the Warriors even though he feels very shaky at this point. But he feels the only way the Warriors are going to win is to let Boston beat themselves. So far, we have kept one game up on that and have won the last two series that way as a result. We've beaten ourselves before, but we are the "R" word...Resilient and our lose one/win one record spells that out. I've always thought this record was a back-handed compliment in that it initially hinges/starts off on something negative...a loss.

What I'm getting at is I have no idea what's going to happen in G5. I'd prefer for us to win and we've won a game in this exact same spot just two and a half weeks ago. We're coming off a loss. We're great on the road. All things point to a BOS victory. Nobody but us is expecting a G5 victory by Boston.

But the stakes are far much greater now and GS has 2 of the 3 remaining games at home. If we can't guard/contain Curry any better than we did in G4, we'll be down 3-2. He torched us. And yet we were still within striking distance until about the last minute and a half when Al hit that 3 late. But the slide started at about the 5 minute mark in the 4th for us.

GS has the Finals experience with its players and coach. At some point that has to shine. But here's what makes champions champions. Winning when you're not supposed to. We're the underdogs. GS is the fave. If Boston is to distinguish itself and really set itself up for next year and years to follow, winning when you're the underdog is a rite of passage. Just like in 1969. It was a forgone conclusion LA was going to win finally.

You can win all the championships you like when you are favored. That's easy. But if you don't win when you not supposed to, nobody remembers you. Just another opportunity coming up in G5. We're going to have to take one of them or in this case two of them! If we don't win, it does put us in the "best" position the team wants to be in and puts us in the best position to win it all.

So for G5, I pick....

db

by **112288** Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:25 am

worcester wrote:My thoughts exactly Cow.

By the way, i have a new patient, a former 12 year NBA player and ex-coach of two NBA teams who is a big Celtics fan even though he never played for Boston. He sees the same thing we do. Great defense but a too stagnant offense at times. Maybe Ime's got this. Maybe he gets enough input from his assistants. Whatever the case there can be no repeat of last game's 4th Q.

Worcester,

I am glad your patient said that about the Celtics offense. If you look back to my posts in each series, I stated the same thing - No rotational offense - no player movement - no ball movement = A LOSS!

To beat this team, you must move the ball quickly up court before they can set up their defense and crash the paint! Or, if they cannot move the ball up on transition, GET BODIES IN MOTION! THAT CREATES MISMATCHES AND CONFUSION ON THE DEFENSE!

If the players are not doing what IME has instructed above, BENCH THEM! If IME is not instructing them to move and rotate, THEN SHAME ON IME, he should know better!

112288

by **gyso** Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:54 am

112288,

One thing that drives me crazy is when the refs hold the ball after a Dubs made basket or turnover and don't give the ball to a Celtics player to inbound it in a timely manner.

It lets their defense get set up
Most of our players end up down the other end of the court
A couple of their players come back to cover the inbound
Then we have a hard time getting the ball inbounded in 5 seconds
It also takes time away from our turn on offense because of full court pressure.

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