hard to watch

It's beginning to look like nobody's going to win the championship. Maybe we need to change the name of this board to Sam's Social and Carousing Marching Band.

what are you doin up big fella

and it's interesting to note that LA got crushed on the boards too. 60-38.



- LilRip

lilrip

Maybe the nba and young guys are just gone rise up and make it tough on everbody this year.

This is the shank of the day, Jeb.

jeb65 wrote: young guys are just gone rise up and make it tough on everbody this year.

In that case, why not call it something classy like Crackers Social and Carousing Marching Band?

Relative youth should have some advantages here for darn sure because I only have one foot in the grave.

GC

boys and gal

So to bend this thread a bit. Let me ask all of you whose hearts pump green for an opinion on the state of KG.

1. What do you see 2. Is he healthy 3. Will he get better 4. If his skills are eroded a bit can he use his great brain to adjust and still be a hell of a player?

WHat do yall think?

I think a bunch of the problem for him is just getting into game shape. It's like he is still trying to play as he was before injury but his bod not quite responding yet.

jeb65 wrote:boys and gal

So to bend this thread a bit. Let me ask all of you whose hearts pump green for an opinion on the state of KG.

1. What do you see 2. Is he healthy 3. Will he get better 4. If his skills are eroded a bit can he use his great brain to adjust and still be a hell of a player?

WHat do yall think?

I think a bunch of the problem for him is just getting into game shape. It's like he is still trying to play as he was before injury but his bod not quite responding yet.

Jeb,

Someone asked my opinion on this subject in another thread (was it you?). Anyway, I said that I hadn't seen him much this year to that point but that I wasn't worried about his long-term outlook and that I thought he'd be fine by mid-season.

Having seen him more since then, I still think he could be fine by the time playoffs roll around, but I am more concerned. I do think that, at a minimum, he'll still be effective to a degree, but much of his game relies on quickness and leaping, and those are lacking to this point. A player like Paul Pierce or Tim Duncan can adapt better than Garnett to diminished physical abilities. For Garnett, half a step slow and half a foot (or more) off his vertical leap makes a huge difference in his ability to make an impact at both ends, but particularly defensively.

The real question is how much better will he get physically. If he can get to 90% of what he was in 2007-08, then there's no worries. Look at how inconsequential Andrew Bynum was with the Lakers when he tried to come back from his knee injury last season, and compare that to how well he's playing now. I'm hoping for a similar improvement from Garnett.

It's not so much his numbers, which are down but still decent; it's more his impact. Having seen the Celts play a couple of games in the past week, I don't see him altering shots or making players think twice about driving to the hoop. Through 11 games, he's had six with zero blocks and two with one block. The most significant thing I remember is him blocking a couple of shots after the whistle has blown (shots that don't count). That's an exclamation point of intimidation when you're leading a stifling defense, but it's just a gimmick when you're giving up over 100 points.

As I said, I hope he'll get better, and I point to the Bynum example. It could be that all he needs is time. We'll know more by January or so.

Outside

Outside

I concur. Every day that passes with him working and gaining ground is a good one. I think he will get better and better. He may have to learn to rely on position and smarts instead of hops. But I think what will probably happen is he will adjust AND his body will get better. Like Sam said a really good starter instead of superman.

I have seen every game and he has looked different in all of them. Sometimes really athletic sometimes diminished.

11 games is a few. I am anxious to hear what everyone thinks.

I got high hopes.

jeb65 wrote:boys and gal

So to bend this thread a bit. Let me ask all of you whose hearts pump green for an opinion on the state of KG.

1. What do you see 2. Is he healthy 3. Will he get better 4. If his skills are eroded a bit can he use his great brain to adjust and still be a hell of a player?

WHat do yall think?

I think a bunch of the problem for him is just getting into game shape. It's like he is still trying to play as he was before injury but his bod not quite responding yet.

i hope he will get better. he has the occasional flashes of explosiveness like alley-oops, but i fear that that's all that he might be reduced to. occasional explosiveness. i mean, even T-Mac (when he was still playing last year) still showed occasional explosiveness, and even Steve Francis towards the tail end of his career, and it gave u just enough hope that maybe they could return to form... but they didn't. i sure do hope i'm wrong tho.

more worrying is that KG's shot-blocking ability right now (as mentioned by another poster) isn't there. he's getting by on reputation. and it's only a matter of time until the rest of the league catches on to this. I remember a game earlier this season (the one against Indiana i think?) where Hubie Brown was calling it and he said something along the lines of "you've gotta keep going at kevin garnett. he just came off knee surgery and until he shows willingness to go up and block the shot, you've gotta keep going at him."

oh well, it's still early in the season. i have hopes that KG will eventually come around to being a beast again come mid-season (40-ish games in) but if he doesn't, then i can't say that i will be wholly surprised. with his high IQ though, i'm sure he could still punish teams offensively with his post moves, fadeaways and mid-range jumpers.



- LilRip

I'll never forget about the time Red was asked about the probable longevity of Cowens (who was an all-star at the time). Red answered that we'd all know when Cowens was losing effectiveness because it would be when his leaping ability dwindled. And that's exactly what happened.

Leaping ability may or may not be as important to KG's performance level (although I'd guess it is). But it does seem to be a good indicator of his progress. I've noticed the same "post-whistle" superfluous blocks that Outside mentions. It almost seems as though KG is trying to convince himself that things are pretty much normal.

And perhaps that's a good tack to take, as long as he's playing within his capabilities. It's probably the best hope for things actually returning to as much normalcy as possible. In the meantime, the good news is that (1) he doesn't seem to have had one setback and (2) he has been a definite factor in games...just not with the consistency we've come to expect.

Sam

Jeb we talked about KG on another thread, so you already know most of my thoughts. In regards to KG blocking shots and whatnot, to me it almost seems like he's more worried about the landing than he is about getting up in the air. It's hard to tell whether he's not moving well because he's in pain/has limited mobility, or if he's worried about re-injuring himself. He just seems very unsure. I imagine it's a difficult thing when someone with no history of injury gets hurt. It's like your body has betrayed you and that can get into your head and throw everything off. He's missing free throws this year which has never been a problem for him. To me, that indicates lack of focus. I think his head is telling him to do one thing, but his body is telling him to do another which is making him tentative and in turn less effective.

At least that is what I hope! He can always overcome the mental aspect of his injury, but if his body has had enough, there's not much that can be done.

I think KG is still a work in progress. If you remember, at some point during the early fall there were some reports that said that he would not be ready for opening night and that Doc would be limiting his minutes for the first half of the season – to make sure he came along slowly and steadily. I think the fact that he is apparently playing with very few of those limits and limitations speak volumes about his recovery.

Is he back to 100% yet? No.
Is he able to be as aggressive and assertive as he would like to be? No.
Does he show steady improvement on his fitness and effectiveness? Yes.
Is there reason do think he will never be the same player? Yes.

I think it is on the defensive end where KG is showing the most lingering effects of his injury. His shot is pretty much back, especially when he is rested. His rebounding is a bit down, but he will get that back sooner. It is his lack of assertiveness on the defensive end that has been where I see the biggest issue – and it is uncertain if he will get back to that same level anytime soon.

I have seen more uncontested drives to the basket against KG this season, that the previous two combined. He used to throw back almost everything, and even if he didn’t – he would be on the rebound and in the drivers face talking smack a second later. He just doesn’t have his lift back, so he doesn’t have his swagger back yet. He will get there.

As has been said before, KG at 75% is still better than 90% of the PF in the NBA. A little patience is in order, as it is still early – but we are still 8-3 and still have the best defense in the NBA.

Atlanta is a flash in the pan, they will not keep up this pace – and at the end of the year it will still be Boston, Cleveland and Orlando fighting it out.

Jeb,

I don't see that much that is troubling about KG physically. His stamina seems a little diminished, but that should come along in time. I think his lift and leaping ability are just fine. We may simply be looking at a player needing a little time to get himself back into game shape. He really didn't have much ramp-up time over the summer and was only cleared to go full tilt at the start of the pre-season.

What I see as more disturbing involves both KG and Wallace on the offensive end. As Tommy might put it; "don't be afraid to go into the paint it won't come off on your sneakers"!

Regards

I've always said our BIGS should be more in tune to the post up aspects of the game rather than launching from long range!-At least Perk gets what points he gets from an inside attack!-MD.

I want to apologize up front, as I am in a bad mood today and I don’t mean to come here and pick a fight in every post….BUT

Rasheed Wallace is not a post up player any longer. You guys have to stop with that. He hasn’t been a consistent down low thread for 5+ years. You knew this when we got him, he isnt going to change now, and the sooner we realize that and accept him for what he is – the sooner we can get on with finding legitimate places to criticize.

KG is certainly a low post threat – WHEN he has his legs and is strong enough to take the battering that entails. Give him a few more months, in the second half of the season he will do battle down there.

But in the big picture, the problem isnt really that Perk in the only down low threat…the problem that you guys don’t already know that he is the only down low threat on this team. It’s not like this is new news or anything.

mrkleen

I think we all know what we got with Sheed but some are hoping to turn back father time too.
I do think when BB come back we will see some changes. No he is not a low post threat against most teams front lines but he does carve out space and takes it to the hole well, and if they leave him alone fron 15-18 feet he is a good shooter from that range.

Has anyone heard if he is on schedule to return in a couple more weeks?

beat

Kleen I'm sorry you are in a bad mood today, and I don't mean to add fuel to your fire, but isn't the point of these forums to talk about what we like, don't like, and things we wish for? People shouldn't be made to feel bad for posting that they wish Sheed would use his post up game more. He may not have used that part of his game for the past few years, but he does have one, and it's a pretty good one.

Beat I haven't seen anything new about Glen's recovery time. As far as I know, it's still 6-8 weeks. I believe we are in week 4 right now. There was a quote from Doc in the Globe recently about Glen being out: “I think it hurts you as much in practice. We don’t have enough ‘bigs.’ Kevin and Rasheed [ Wallace] and Perk [Kendrick Perkins] have to be on the floor every possession, almost, so that makes them tired.’’
It's not really relevant to his return time, but I thought it was interesting. I hadn't really thought about the toll it is taking on our bigs in practice too. And from all accounts that I've heard, these guys go full out in practice. Hurry back Glen!

Kelly

Thanks for the BB info.

Just as you wrote part of the whole idea of the forum is to speak your peace one way or another and not be "overly" concerned that someones feelings get hurt. Certainly there is room on here for the pro and the con of everything. I don't think it's anyones intent to make others feel bad.

We ALL want the C's to win #18. We all have various beliefs in how that should be accomplished and yeah I'm as guilty as the next for thinking the worst after a loss let alone 2 in a row. Three and I might be walking to a cliff as we don't have high rises on tug hill!!

beat

Kelly,

The quote from Doc that you mention is a great example of how much really passes us by as observers "on the outside looking in." In this game, so many little factors are related to other factors (both on and off the floor) that I've always felt we fans really see the tip of the iceberg.

We know just enough to conjecture and register hopes, which are perhaps the essence of being a fan. The sheer amount that we DON'T know contributes to the suspense that also contributes to the excitement of being a fan.

It's my hope that this forum will always be a place where we can experience the suspense together, conjecturing and hoping, with the only sure thing being the singular passion we share.

Sam

KellyGreen17 wrote:There was a quote from Doc in the Globe recently about Glen being out: “I think it hurts you as much in practice. We don’t have enough ‘bigs.’ Kevin and Rasheed [ Wallace] and Perk [Kendrick Perkins] have to be on the floor every possession, almost, so that makes them tired.’’
It's not really relevant to his return time, but I thought it was interesting. I hadn't really thought about the toll it is taking on our bigs in practice too. And from all accounts that I've heard, these guys go full out in practice. Hurry back Glen!

I find that to be a remarkable comment from Doc. You can't believe a lot of what coaches say to the media, so I'll do my best to not read too much into it, but wow. So...

-- One big goes down, and now you don't have enough bigs to practice? I thought this team almost had a glut of bigs going into the season. They certainly do compared to the end of last season.

-- Because of a perceived shortage of bigs, you're going to allow yourself to run your key bigs ragged in practice and affect their stamina for games? What, you can't help yourself? "KG, get that ice off your knee and get in there. I need a tall guy!"

I just find that hard to believe. If it's even remotely true, my opinion of Doc will go way down.

Outside

Outside

Be thankful that we practice defense. As opposed to Nellie's bunch.

Interesting take too. I just can't believe that Doc would take their legs out in hard practices, but being "short" people to work as the "scout" team for a game could make things difficult too.

beat

Outside, I do see how Doc's comment can be construed negatively, but I think it just confirms the fact that Doc is a veterans coach. From all accounts I've read the C's are just as intense in practice as they are in a game situation. It also seems as though Doc isn't very firm when he asks a player to sit out of practice. A perfect example is Paul Pierce playing in the Indiana game even though he was banged up. Doc wanted him to sit out, but Paul wanted to play, so he did. You can argue that he should be more assertive and just force his players to rest when he see's fit, but if that was how he operated, we may not have seen such great results so quickly after we acquired all our veterans.

Kelly – No worries I am fine 

I am all for debating and discussing things, I just think that things that are clearly not going to ever happen are counterproductive to real discussions. You have as much chance of seeing Rasheed down on the block most of the time he is in the game, as you do Kevin McHale walking out and posting up for us.


Outside

If you know anything about this team, you know that KG, Pierce and Ray Allen are often the ones driving the team to practice hard. This was the basis for their improvement two years ago and the way KG does things period.

It has nothing to do with Doc standing there with a whip, in fact he is so sensitive to getting the team extra rest that he doesn’t even have shoot arounds on game days any more.

I think your criticism of Doc is unfounded and unfair. Sorry.

Outside,

I think that what Doc meant was that all the bigs WOULD have to be on the floor all the time at practice IF he were to do all the remedial and developmental stuff he'd prefer. But you can just bet he'll temper that stuff in favor of specifically NOT over-taxing the bigs.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that (1) I don't believe most coaches are experts at articulating things precisely, especially when they're tired after practice and (2) we're getting things second-hand through the media as it is. It's extremely dangerous to take their alleged comments literally and, especially, to attach inferences that may or may not be true.

Doc also berated himself for allowing Pierce to play in the most recent game. And he had to stop Pierce from trying to sneak into a practice scrimmage the day before yesterday. I believe he's learning just how firm he has to be with these guys, who seem intent on running THEMSELVES into the ground.

Think what would happen if he had to coach a team of Iversons and had to go to the other extreme by pleading them to practice if a distant cousin had a cold.

Sam