The Lakers' Season after Starting 1-4

bob

Orlando is playing well right now, Big Baby is playing better than a few years ago, I'm surprised at that one and Affalo is improving too. The team has some decent young talent as I also like their 1st round draft pick. Howard is now playing with a bunch of old, slow injured players....D'Antoni is not a good coach for this team, Steven A was saying same thing you said about the top is where Lakers are in trouble, and we all know you can't win in this league without defense.

cow

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:anyone see the Laker game? so now they're 8-9, Dwight Howards defense has never been so inconsequential, saw terrible pick and roll defense all game. D'Antoni proving his rep as a bad defensive coach is very deserving, so many holes on defensive end, back end, perimeter.....I don't see this getting better, they're defense gonna only get worse when Nash gets back.

Gasol has to be playing hurt. Reports were that he had tendinitis in both knees. He can't be healthy and playing this badly unless he's lost all motivation for whatever reason. He's now gone six straight games without scoring more than 13 points or having a single double-digit game in rebounds, averaging 9 points, 7.7 rebounds and only shooting 36% in that span. Can't believe he could be losing it this quickly at 32 years old but, at some point, your knees just can't take it anymore. And you never know what that's gonna be. Look at Brandon Roy.

just heard Steven A on First Take rant that Lakers problems start at top with Jim Buss decision to hire D'Antoni, saying that hes a coach who preaches his system over whatever strengths or weaknesses the personel may have and he said Pau Gasol is an all star caliber PF that needs to get touches down low, that D'Antoni has turned him into an outside jump shooter.....the guy is not a stretch 4. D'Antoni wrong/bad move for this franchise, that he doesn't care about defense.

cow,

I'm sorry to hear this. I hate agreeing with Steven A(sshole) Smith. I might have to re-examine the basic tenets of my life now.


bob


.

Steven A. is shortsighted and only looking at the Lakers as of today.
He has a job and that job is to be controversial.

We all know Pau isn't a stretch 4.
LA can't build their team around Pau's strengths.
They have to build their team around Nash and Howard's strengths.
Kobe will be fine in any system.
Pau will most likely be traded for a number of reasons.

With Boston's serious rebounding issues, do you think Boston regrets trading BBD for Bass? BBD is averaging 16 ppg and over 8 rpg.

bobheckler wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:anyone see the Laker game? so now they're 8-9, Dwight Howards defense has never been so inconsequential, saw terrible pick and roll defense all game. D'Antoni proving his rep as a bad defensive coach is very deserving, so many holes on defensive end, back end, perimeter.....I don't see this getting better, they're defense gonna only get worse when Nash gets back.

Gasol has to be playing hurt. Reports were that he had tendinitis in both knees. He can't be healthy and playing this badly unless he's lost all motivation for whatever reason. He's now gone six straight games without scoring more than 13 points or having a single double-digit game in rebounds, averaging 9 points, 7.7 rebounds and only shooting 36% in that span. Can't believe he could be losing it this quickly at 32 years old but, at some point, your knees just can't take it anymore. And you never know what that's gonna be. Look at Brandon Roy.

just heard Steven A on First Take rant that Lakers problems start at top with Jim Buss decision to hire D'Antoni, saying that hes a coach who preaches his system over whatever strengths or weaknesses the personel may have and he said Pau Gasol is an all star caliber PF that needs to get touches down low, that D'Antoni has turned him into an outside jump shooter.....the guy is not a stretch 4. D'Antoni wrong/bad move for this franchise, that he doesn't care about defense.

cow,

I'm sorry to hear this. I hate agreeing with Steven A(sshole) Smith. I might have to re-examine the basic tenets of my life now.


bob


.

Steven A. is shortsighted and only looking at the Lakers as of today.
He has a job and that job is to be controversial.

We all know Pau isn't a stretch 4.
LA can't build their team around Pau's strengths.
They have to build their team around Nash and Howard's strengths.
Kobe will be fine in any system.
Pau will most likely be traded for a number of reasons.

TJ,

"We all know Pau isn't a stretch 4". Apparently the Lakers Head Coach disagrees, since that's how he's playing him. Whose fault is it if a player is being used in a way that everybody knows he's not most effective in?

"LA can't build their team around Pau's strengths." Boston built its team around the strength of its all-stars, when Howard was in Orlando SVG built his team around his all-stars (D12 and Turk, predominantly) and Spoelstra built his team around his all-stars. That's why you have all-stars, so you can build the team around them. The Lakers could have a Big 4, except that Antoni doesn't see Gasol that way.

"They have to build their team around Nash and Howard's strengths". Not Kobe's? Build a team around a soon-to-be 39 year old point guard?

"Kobe will be fine in any system". Kobe has only played in two systems, Phil's and Mike's, and his team isn't doing well in Mike's. Yes, I know his individual stats are still quite good, but how well is he fitting into Mike's system? To be honest, I haven't watched enough Laker basketball to see how much of Kobe's production is just him taking over, like we have seen him do many times over the years, and how much is him producing out of the system. Is Kobe playing well in Antoni's system, or is it KoMe?

"Pau will most likely be traded for a number of reasons." I agree. Of course, they will get less for a 32 year old with tendonitis in both knees but it is what it is. Between Antoni's unhappiness with his play and Kobe's brutal "put your big boy pants on" comment, I think it's safe to say Gasol's tenure in purple-and-gold is coming to an end.


bob


.

bob,

1) Howard and Gasol are the most effective on the low box. You can't have two low box players and run D'Antoni's system. I don't think you can have two low box players anyway. Why is the focus so much on what Gasol is not doing under D'Antoni's system but nobody is talking about how well MWP is performing? He is averaging more ppg then Gasol is.
2) Orlando built their team around Dwight because he was the only superstar on the team. Orlando tried to play similar to D'Antoni's Suns teams and ultimately, it didn't work, though Orlando came very close to winning the championship in 2009.
3) Kobe would excel in the triangle, princeton, D'Antoni's offense, any type of offense. Nash is the one that will make the players much better, not Kobe. Nash is still a very good, borderline all-star player who can run an offense as good as any pg in the league.
4) Kobe has played great this whole season. He is making an effort to get closer to the basket and is not shooting nearly as many contested 20-25 foot jump shots. He is still the best SG in the league.
5) A big part of Pau's problems is on Pau. There is a reason why Kobe gets on him so often. He doesn't bring the effort, all game, every game. He might be hesitant too because of the pain in his knees. Pau just doesn't want to run up and down the court much anymore. Despite being 4 years older then Pau, Jamison is in much better condition then Pau and is a much better fit for LA's offense.
6) Pau should be traded for 2 or 3 players that fit better for the Lakers. LA needs depth, and that could be made possible with a trade for Pau. Pau will be able to help another team if he can play center and stay on the low box.

Nash is the one that will make the players much better, not Kobe. Nash is still a very good, borderline all-star player who can run an offense as good as any pg in the league.


TJ this remains to be seen...................38 going on???......with a significant leg injury.... (as good as any point in the league) really?


beat

beat wrote: Nash is the one that will make the players much better, not Kobe. Nash is still a very good, borderline all-star player who can run an offense as good as any pg in the league.


TJ this remains to be seen...................38 going on???......with a significant leg injury.... (as good as any point in the league) really?


beat

Nash's injury is not a significant leg injury.
It is more of an annoyance that takes a while to heal.

Yes, I think Nash can run an offense as good as anyone in the league.
He is not physicall gifted as most others but is as skilled as any pg.
Nash is light years ahead of every point guard that has worn a Lakers uniform since Kobe has been on the team.

Age will be a factor at some point with Nash but he played fantastic as a 38 year old last season.

I don't want to come across like I feel that as soon as Nash is on the court, LA is the favorite to win the championship. They have to prove that they can beat OKC, Miami, SA and other younger, Western Conference teams.

LA has a lot of work to do and probably more roster tweaking in order to be a championship contender.

Significant to keep him out for .................. how long has it been already and who knows how much longer it will be? Been 15 games already I think.

Think that is quite significant in that he recently stated he can't even run yet.

we shall see but I believe whatever he can do on offense will be more than negated by lack of defense. In the very brief time he did play he only got 8 assists in 50 minutes.

Time will tell. Always does.

beat

beat,

If you or anyone else has watched Blake, Morris or Duhon play defense in Nash's absence, you would have seen that the pg defense has been every bit as bad as their offense. Thye stop nobody going into the lane. I am very disappointed in the way Morris has played as the starter, especially defensively. Steve's defense will not cancel out what he will do on offense. His shooting alone will make LA's offense so much better then it has been. I can't think of any team in the NBA that has has worse pg play then the Lakers have had this year.

Steve's 2 games under Brown's triangle offense won't mean anything when he comes back under D'Antoni's offense.

tjmakz wrote:Howard and Gasol are the most effective on the low box. You can't have two low box players and run D'Antoni's system. I don't think you can have two low box players anyway.

You can have two effective post players, depending on the skills of the post players, and Pau's skills allow for that. In fact, they already have, with Bynum and Pau in the triangle. They don't have to both be in the low post. You can do a high-low post or even set one up in the mid-post on the strong side and the other in the low post on the weak side. Given proper spacing by the other guys, the defense would be forced to use three guys to guard Dwight and Pau, leaving open outside shooters, or two guys on Dwight and Pau, creating a mismatch inside.

I don't know D'Antoni's system other than 1) get it up the court to get opportunities before the defense sets up; 2) lots of three-pointers; and 3) a heavy dose of pick-and-roll, but I find it hard to believe that D'Antoni is rigidly stuck in the "8 seconds or less" offense and won't adapt his offensive principles to take advantage of the Lakers' roster, including Gasol. As I said a week or so ago on a thread discussing rumors about Gasol for Bargnani/DeRozan or Amare, Pau seems like a natural fit in the pick-and-roll with Nash, either as the screener Nash works off of or as a secondary option when he moves to the gaps and seams inevitably created when Howard rolls to the basket and gets a double-team. Pau has great hands, finds those openings well, can shoot the mid-range jumper, can shoot well with either hand around the basket, and is a very good passer -- all of which are skills that they can exploit in the pick-and-roll game, including when both Gasol and Howard are in.

But there are several keys:

• Nash. We can't see how the pick-and-roll game works until Nash comes back.

• Pau's knees. Having watched the Lakers a couple of times, it is obvious that he is affected by the tendonitis. He has no lift, quickness, or explosion. He's surviving for now on guile and the outside shot, and his outside shot isn't falling. He'll either have to improve with the treatment he's getting or they'll have to shut him down for a while or reduce his practice workload, play him fewer minutes, and/or sit him on back-to-backs. In any case, his effectiveness will be compromised until his knees improve, regardless of exhortations by Kobe to suck it up.

• D'Antoni's willingness to adapt the offense to exploit Pau's skills. I've been giving D'Antoni the benefit of the doubt so far because players from the Olympic team and others who have worked with him speak so highly of him. The impression I get is that he's an offensive wiz, but not married to a particular system like Paul Westhead or Phil Jackson. To me, this will be the true test -- making this work for Pau. If D'Antoni can't do that, then he's just a system guy.

Given the short window of opportunity with Nash and Kobe, Pau's age isn't a liability in my view, and you're never going to get anything close to his (healthy) value in a trade. Why get the unexpected bonus of trading for Nash and Howard without losing Pau and then trade that bonus away? I'm on the "Jim Buss is a tool" bandwagon again, so I suppose that's a possibility, but I'm not on the "Jim Buss is a total idiot" bandwagon -- yet. To me, if they trade Pau, I'll be a charter member of the "both Jim Buss and D'Antoni are total idiots" bandwagon.

beat wrote:Time will tell. Always does.

Yes, indeed.

If LA trades Pau it most likely will be for players that are more athletic and will make less money next season.

Some people say that LA is too old and non-athletic. Pau is a big part of that.
Some people say that if LA trades Pau Jim Buss will be an idiot.
It seems to me, that we can't have it both ways.

I feel LA's best move is to get younger, more athletic and better shooters.

Pau had a lousy post-season in both of the last two years.
It's time that Pau's talents are shipped to another city.
I expect that to happen near 12/15 or after Nash returns.

Tendinitis caught up to him:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lakers-forward-gasol-knee-tendinitis-001713503--nba.html

It's a good day when two division rivals (the Nets and Philly) both lose at home (though without Bynum not many people are taking the Sixers seriously), and also when both Miami and the Lakers lose. Heat surprisingly lost to the woeful Wizards and LA blew a 17 point lead to Houston on a night when Harden shot an atrocious 3 for 19. And LA still couldn't win. Laker bench outscored 59-20 (with Gasol out and Jamison starting, plus both Nash and Blake hurt, they have no bench at all). Dwight goes 8 for 16 from the line and if he just goes 10 for 16 they're still playing as LA loses by 2. Rockets shoot 37% and still win.

Lakers lost again on a night Harden had a terrible shooting night, whack a Dwight key to the comeback, then when Lakers were permitted to run an offense 4 guys stood around and you know who took all the shots, he bricked them all last 2 minutes, saw no sight of the D'Antoni offense at all in 4th quarter, seems defense is not his only problem. Rockets got wide open looks for perimeter shots and some big named Smith scored a career high on feeds close to the basket from penetrating players, this will continue when Nash gets back.

tj Gasol was the starting PF/C on a team that went to 3 Finals in a row, besides Bynum and Gasol playing together, Parish and McHale were 2 other lowpost scorers that played and played well together, it can be done and has been done very well. I don't always agree with Stephen A, but he knows the game and the more detailed point he made was Gasol is a skilled proven lowpost 7 foot scorer, hes got great hands, you get him the ball 10 feet from the basket and in and he can score and pass in a variety of ways, its a proven fact.....what you don't do is make him an outside shooting stretch 4!!!
and when is a fractured leg not a serous injury for a 39 year old point guard? what planet are you from?

Dwight Howard just said we, the team, lost because of defense, okay big guy glad were in agreement....is there anybody in the organization or players/coaches that have any clue how to stop the bleeding at all or a little bit?

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dwight Howard just said we, the team, lost because of defense, okay big guy glad were in agreement....is there anybody in the organization or players/coaches that have any clue how to stop the bleeding at all or a little bit?

To quote one of my favorite bands: Let It Bleed.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Lakers lost again on a night Harden had a terrible shooting night, whack a Dwight key to the comeback, then when Lakers were permitted to run an offense 4 guys stood around and you know who took all the shots, he bricked them all last 2 minutes, saw no sight of the D'Antoni offense at all in 4th quarter, seems defense is not his only problem. Rockets got wide open looks for perimeter shots and some big named Smith scored a career high on feeds close to the basket from penetrating players, this will continue when Nash gets back.

tj Gasol was the starting PF/C on a team that went to 3 Finals in a row, besides Bynum and Gasol playing together, Parish and McHale were 2 other lowpost scorers that played and played well together, it can be done and has been done very well. I don't always agree with Stephen A, but he knows the game and the more detailed point he made was Gasol is a skilled proven lowpost 7 foot scorer, hes got great hands, you get him the ball 10 feet from the basket and in and he can score and pass in a variety of ways, its a proven fact.....what you don't do is make him an outside shooting stretch 4!!!
and when is a fractured leg not a serous injury for a 39 year old point guard? what planet are you from?

You mentioned "some big named Smith" scored a career high. This guy - Greg Smith - is an undrafted 6'10" forward who with his new career high of 21 points against LA tonight still hasn't scored 100 points IN HIS LIFE. That's how out of the blue his performance was. Amazing. He now has 99 career points in his resume. Gotta love it. He also swished two critical free throws with 15 seconds to go to push it to a four point lead and virtually seal the deal.