kg to brooklyn?

k_j_88 wrote:And I think Rondo is a better PG than D-Will, personally.

Many would disagree. For a period of about four years not too long ago - his last four years in Utah before being traded to the Nets in 2011 - he was considered the best point guard in the league, or at least the equal of any (along with Chris Paul). And he only turned 29 today. Rondo's poor free throw shooting which has not gotten any better after seven years in the league and lack of offense (odds are he'll never average 15 a game for a season) cancels out the better defense he gives you. When both are healthy and motivated it's a very close call.

steve3344 wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:And I think Rondo is a better PG than D-Will, personally.

Many would disagree.  For a period of about four years not too long ago - his last four years in Utah before being traded to the Nets in 2011 - he was considered the best point guard in the league, or at least the equal of any (along with Chris Paul).  And he only turned 29 today.  Rondo's poor free throw shooting which has not gotten any better after seven years in the league and lack of offense (odds are he'll never average 15 a game for a season) cancels out the better defense he gives you.  When both are healthy and motivated it's a very close call.  

Steve,

I'm sure many people do disagree. But that's their choice and opinion

Part of why Rondo hasn't scored a lot is because he typically didn't need to. He has had PP and KG and others around him to score. But I think you're underestimating Rondo's ability to score. Rondo could score 20-25 per game if he wanted to, but he prefers to involve his teammates.

But anyway, here are some stats:

Rondo: 13.7 ppg, 11.1 apg, 48.4%FG, 64.5% FT, 5.6 reb, 0.2 blks, 1.8 stl
Williams: 18.9 ppg, 7.7 apg, 44% FG, 82% FT, 3 reb, 0.4 blks, 1 stl

Rondo is a better distributor, better rebounder, defender, and has a higher FG %. Williams has a slight edge on blocks and is a better FT shooter and scores 5 pts more per game, which is basically 2-3 shots. Also, consider this. Rondo lead the league this regular season in triple doubles (even more than LeBron) and he didn't even play half the season. I'd have to say Rondo does more things for his team and accounts for more offense collectively.

k_j_88 wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:And I think Rondo is a better PG than D-Will, personally.

Many would disagree.  For a period of about four years not too long ago - his last four years in Utah before being traded to the Nets in 2011 - he was considered the best point guard in the league, or at least the equal of any (along with Chris Paul).  And he only turned 29 today.  Rondo's poor free throw shooting which has not gotten any better after seven years in the league and lack of offense (odds are he'll never average 15 a game for a season) cancels out the better defense he gives you.  When both are healthy and motivated it's a very close call.  

Steve,

I'm sure many people do disagree. But that's their choice and opinion

Part of why Rondo hasn't scored a lot is because he typically didn't need to. He has had PP and KG and others around him to score. But I think you're underestimating Rondo's ability to score. Rondo could score 20-25 per game if he wanted to, but he prefers to involve his teammates.

But anyway, here are some stats:

Rondo: 13.7 ppg, 11.1 apg, 48.4%FG, 64.5% FT, 5.6 reb, 0.2 blks, 1.8 stl
Williams: 18.9 ppg, 7.7 apg, 44% FG, 82% FT, 3 reb, 0.4 blks, 1 stl

Rondo is a better distributor, better rebounder, defender, and has a higher FG %. Williams has a slight edge on blocks and is a better FT shooter and scores 5 pts more per game, which is basically 2-3 shots. Also, consider this. Rondo lead the league this regular season in triple doubles (even more than LeBron) and he didn't even play half the season. I'd have to say Rondo does more things for his team and accounts for more offense collectively.

Don't just go by last year for D-Will which he played the first few month hurt. From mid Feb to mid April after he recovered he averaged 23.4 a game. Look at the four years from '07-'08 to 2011 when he averaged 20 points on 48% shooting and over 10 assists per game. Plus opposing teams don't have to guard Rondo for the jumper (they certainly do with Williams). Teams can sag off him which makes it harder for our other players to score.

steve3344 wrote:

Don't just go by last year for D-Will which he played the first few month hurt.  From mid Feb to mid April after he recovered he averaged 23.4 a game. Look at the four years from '07-'08 to 2011 when he averaged 20 points on 48% shooting and over 10 assists per game.  Plus opposing teams don't have to guard Rondo for the jumper (they certainly do with Williams). Teams can sag off him which makes it harder for our other players to score.

Is it really relevant to include outdated stats? Perhaps if these guys played in different eras, but if playing concurrently as they are, shouldn't we measure their recent production?

And Rondo has gotten a bit better at hitting outside shots. He's not a great shooter, but I don't think a PG has to be a great shooter, they have to be a great floor general. That's more important.

k_j_88 wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

Don't just go by last year for D-Will which he played the first few month hurt.  From mid Feb to mid April after he recovered he averaged 23.4 a game. Look at the four years from '07-'08 to 2011 when he averaged 20 points on 48% shooting and over 10 assists per game.  Plus opposing teams don't have to guard Rondo for the jumper (they certainly do with Williams). Teams can sag off him which makes it harder for our other players to score.

Is it really relevant to include outdated stats? Perhaps if these guys played in different eras, but if playing concurrently as they are, shouldn't we measure their recent production?

And Rondo has gotten a bit better at hitting outside shots. He's not a great shooter, but I don't think a PG has to be a great shooter, they have to be a great floor general. That's more important.

Several years up through 2011 are "outdated stats?" I don't think so. If you disagree then just use the final two months this last year when D-Will got healthy and averaged 23.4 on over 50% shooting.

Outdated as in, 2010 stats don't mean anything in 2013. They matter for legacy, not current production.

I disagree because he shoots more than Rondo does. Rondo would ultimately score around the same amount of points if he took the same amount of shots. If you want to get into career avgs, Deron avgs 4.4 shots more per game and 6.7 ppg more. Don't you think if Rondo took as many shots as D-Will that their point totals would be similar?

And as far as being better PGs? I don't know. Chris Paul is the only guy that comes to mind in that conversation, but I'm sure Rondo matches CP3 statistically, too.

k_j_88 wrote:Outdated as in, 2010 stats don't mean anything in 2013. They matter for legacy, not current production.

I disagree because he shoots more than Rondo does. Rondo would ultimately score around the same amount of points if he took the same amount of shots.

Just out of curiosity, are there any point guards in the league you consider better than Rondo? Please list them.

k_j_88 wrote:Outdated as in, 2010 stats don't mean anything in 2013. They matter for legacy, not current production.

I disagree because he shoots more than Rondo does. Rondo would ultimately score around the same amount of points if he took the same amount of shots.

It's ridiculous to say Rondo would score as many points as Williams if he took the same amount of shots because if Rondo took more jumpers his % would go way down.  And there are only so many driving opportunities per game and Rondo takes full advantage of all of them when they are there.

steve3344 wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:Outdated as in, 2010 stats don't mean anything in 2013. They matter for legacy, not current production.

I disagree because he shoots more than Rondo does. Rondo would ultimately score around the same amount of points if he took the same amount of shots.

It's ridiculous to say Rondo would score as many points as Williams if he took the same amount of shots because if Rondo took more jumpers his % would go way down.  And there are only so many driving opportunities per game and Rondo takes full advantage of all of them when they are there.

Ridiculous? If Rondo averages close to 50% FG, and he takes like 4-5 shots per game more, he'll probably average around 17 points a game as opposed to 13 ppg. That would put him right where D-Will is, statistically. And keep in mind, FGs includes all shots, not just jumpers.

Oh, and here's CP3's stats:

12-13: 16.9 PPG, 9.7 apg, 48.1% FG, 88.5% FT, 3.7 reb, 0.1 blks, 2.4 stl

As you can see, all 3 players are quite comparable statistically. Personally, I'd still take Rondo over any other PG in the league.

k_j_88 wrote:

steve3344 wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:Outdated as in, 2010 stats don't mean anything in 2013. They matter for legacy, not current production.

I disagree because he shoots more than Rondo does. Rondo would ultimately score around the same amount of points if he took the same amount of shots.

It's ridiculous to say Rondo would score as many points as Williams if he took the same amount of shots because if Rondo took more jumpers his % would go way down.  And there are only so many driving opportunities per game and Rondo takes full advantage of all of them when they are there.

Ridiculous? If Rondo averages close to 50% FG, and he takes like 4-5 shots per game more, he'll probably average around 17 points a game as opposed to 13 ppg. That would put him right where D-Will is, statistically. And keep in mind, FGs includes all shots, not just jumpers.

17 is not where D-Will is when he is not playing hurt. I told you to look at his stats once he got healthy last year. Well over 20 a game.

steve,

A healthy D-Will is probably going to avg 21 ppg. Last year in NJ before the move, he was at 21 ppg. His final year in Utah was 21 ppg. That doesn't constitute "well over 20" in my opinion. Rondo taking the same number of fgs would be around 18 ppg.

Any advantage D-Will has offensively, Rondo offsets with his superior distributing ability. It is a fact that Rondo's play accounts for more offense collectively than D-Will when you combine points and assists. My point all along has been that a PG is more than being a good shooter.

k_j_88 wrote:Oh, and here's CP3's stats:

12-13: 16.9 PPG, 9.7 apg, 48.1% FG, 88.5% FT, 3.7 reb, 0.1 blks, 2.4 stl

As you can see, all 3 players are quite comparable statistically. Personally, I'd still take Rondo over any other PG in the league.

I thought you'd sat that but no other coaches would. Rondo is terrific but certainly not the best point guard in the league. Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Stephen Curry and D-Will (when he's not playing hurt) are all better. Not by a lot, but no coach would pick Rondo over those guys. As any of those teams if they would trade their guy for Rondo even up. They would all say no.

Tony Parker is the only one in that group that's actually won anything besides rondo.

steve3344 wrote:no coach would pick Rondo over those guys.  

LOL. OK.

D Rose is mentally weak. Steph Curry is really an undersized SG like Russ Westbrook. Kyrie Irving is talented but check out his assist numbers. Very low for an "elite" PG and he still has yet to really win in this league.

Chris Paul is the only guy that I think could have an argument for the top spot. D-Will is certainly a top 5-7 PG in this league but I can't see him being better than Rondo considering Rondo's body of work including his postseason experience.

k_j_88 wrote:D Rose is mentally weak. Steph Curry is really an undersized SG like Russ Westbrook. Kyrie Irving is talented but check out his assist numbers. Very low for an "elite" PG and he still has yet to really win in this league.

Chris Paul is the only guy that I think could have an argument for the top spot. D-Will is certainly a top 5-7 PG in this league but I can't see him being better than Rondo considering Rondo's body of work including his postseason experience.

Bingo.

Great players - like Rondo and Tony Parker - make those around them better.  Deron Williams has never won a game of consequence i his life.  Rondo on the other hand, plays his best when the season is on the line.  Rajon is the best pure PG in the NBA...it's not even close.

While I'm enjoying this thread on KG to Brooklyn, I'm struck by all the discussion of point guards.  I hadn't known KG played point guard.

Furthermore, I'm struck by all the discussion of point guards' scoring ability.  As a 63-year student of NBA point guards, the most fun I have is reading a discussion of their scoring ability.  It's so refreshing not to read that trite old drivel about how well they can run a team.

But since scoring is the focus, I thought I'd post some figures about 2013 shooting percentages in the clutch (defined by the NBA as the last 5 minutes of the game).  I guess some might argue that the most revealing stat on the shooting of a PG or any other player comes in the clutch, when the pants can get as tight as in the old days.

I don't really have a point to make, but maybe someone will find these stats useful.

49.2% Paul
47.1% Parker
46.7% Irving
38.9% Rondo
35.3% Westbrook
27.2% D. Williams

And a few others of interest that I plucked from the pack (mostly non-point guards):

87.5% D. Jordan
61.9% S. Nash
56.3% J. Green
41.8% K. Garnet
37.3% S. Curry
38.9% T. Allen
36.4% Bledsoe
34.8% J. Terry
34.3% P. Pierce
25% A. Bradley
8% Steve Blake

Sam

Sam,

Indeed everyone's energy became a bit misplaced, right around the trading Rondo and KG for Lopez and D Will thing.

I don't think a PG necessarily needs to be a great scorer. A PG needs to do what it takes to help the team win be it assists, key defensive plays, ball security, or even adding points when needed.

k_j_88 wrote:D Rose is mentally weak. Steph Curry is really an undersized SG like Russ Westbrook. Kyrie Irving is talented but check out his assist numbers. Very low for an "elite" PG and he still has yet to really win in this league.

Chris Paul is the only guy that I think could have an argument for the top spot. D-Will is certainly a top 5-7 PG in this league but I can't see him being better than Rondo considering Rondo's body of work including his postseason experience.

Curry is a great shooter/ slash playmaker/ game on the line player. His shortcoming is he gets injured too often. The Celtics would love to have him. He is a special player.

KennCelt,

I agree with you on Curry. That guy is an incredible force of offense. But yeah, he does have those durability issues.

KJ

Sam,

Many conclusions can be drawn, but a few passing thoughts on those numbers...

1. If your point guard is the one being counted on to provide some offense when it's close, his name should be Nash.

2.  Paul outside and Jordan inside make the Clippers a dangerous team in a tight game.

3.  Now I really wish we had gotten Jordan, because he can get inside and score.

4.  Numbers can be deceiving.  It's the old Babe Ruth rule about big hitters; the ones who hit the most homers also strike out a lot.  Paul Pierce has always been counted on to take the shot, so since he's often the one, he also gets to rack up the misses.  We also know he's broken many opponents hearts in the last couple of minutes of numerous games.

5.  If it's late in the game there are many others I would have on the floor before Williams or Bradley, but Blake would be sitting down for certain.

6.  We still don't know about Williams, Bradley or Blake's assist numbers or passing acumen in the last 5 minutes of a game.

7. Mark Twain and my old statistics professor were right.

Interesting charts.

Regards

Sam, you are the best. You've convinced me with your stats. We should get D. Jordan and use him as our point guard. Since Rondo has better rebound numbers, we can put him at center, no?

NYCelt, ask and you shall receive.  The stats don't show passing ability, but they do display number of assists in so-called clutch time:

0.7 Parker
0.7 Nash
0.6 Paul
0.5 D. Williams
0.4 Blake
0.1 Bradley

I guess that does it.  Did I miss anyone?  Oh yeah:

1.6 Rondo

Sam

D. JORDAN'S ASSISTS IN CLUTCH TIME?