Celts/Sixers 10/11

http://www.nba.com/games/20131011/BOSPHI/gameinfo.html?ls=slt

Second quarter seemed to be a bit of a problem.

And fast break points: Philly 30, Boston 12.

I know it's pre-season but this is against a team that some people were wondering if they'd win 10 games this year.

We're 0-3 (but who's counting?) and are halfway to being the NY football Giants.

It's obvious what the Celtics are doing.

They're tanking the pre-season.

start of a long long long rope a dope....

cowens/oldschool wrote:start of a long long long rope a dope....

To be further known as "wigginsing"

Great line, Steve.

Four things please me in this game:

(1) Sully is the one Celtic who seems most comfortable in his role.

(2) Crawford continued to look okay as a stopgap PG.

(3) Pressley, for the most part, continued to look like a natural take charge guy except that he fell into the well-known "Celtic Stroll" habit on several occasions.

(4) Sims (on whom BobH and I may have man crushes) came in stone cold late in the game and drained a three.

Otherwise:

(5) Wallace came back to earth.

(6) Olynyk—even with another 40 poounds— would not be a naturally instinctive defensive player. Last night, he just stood and watched a guy go right around him to the hoop. And defensive players are beating him to his preferred shooting spots.

(7) Jeff Green is still struggling with his shot and, for my money, with his effort as well.

( Bogans looked more animated with an ice bag on his wrist than he has looked at any time on the court.

There's more, but my stomach starts churning when I witness animals being led to slaughter.

Sam

In the post game it was noted by the announcers that the Celtics only had 12 fast break points.  It was stated in a way that would lead one to believe that these points were below average.  But the reality is that we have scored 13, 12 and 12 on fast breaks in three games.  This team is not playing uptempo basketball yet.  

And no one should be surprised that the Sixers were able to run.  That is what they do best.

Coach Stevens is still experimenting with different starting lineups and rotations off the bench.  However there are no schemes in place to counter what the opposition is doing.

For example last night would have been a perfect time to use both Green and Wallace to counter Turner, Young and Anderson.  The Sixers went small playing 2 SG, a PG and a SF in their starting lineup and throughout the game we could not match up with them.

Anyways that is just an observation.  I think we will be well into the season before we figure things out.

The other issue I see with the motion offense is that although it may provide shots for a variety of teammates it does not specifically identify mismatches.  And some of the shots that open up for a particular player may not be the right shot for them based on their efficiency from that spot on the court.  

The solution is of course having a PG than can run an offense by being the prime decision maker on where the ball goes.  

Last night I wanted to see more of Vitor but he only played 5 minutes.

Sully rebounded the ball well again and scored on a variety of shots

Kelly lead the team in FG attempts (16) but only made 6.  He did get 3 steals and 2 of them where on long passes.  It is good to see a 7 footer get down the court to stop a fast break.  His rebounding and overall defense however is atrocious.  The notion that he could be a starter sooner rather than later has started to fade as I get a sense of what he brings to the table.

Courtney Lee continues to miss a lot of shots but his rebounding and defense looks pretty good.

Look, I do not want to over analyze this because it is pre season and little has been established.  Stevens has a lot on his plate to figure out.  I still believe that there is enough talent on this team to compete every game.  

With both the Sox and Celtics playing tonight, the DVR will be set.

Have a great Saturday everyone.  The weather down here is Georgia is fabulous.  And with that thought my biggest decision is what to put on the grill.

Now if I get  KJ to make a beer run for me everything will be fine.

dboss

Sam

I also had somewhat of a man crush on Sims, I thought he could have been a decent backup for Pierce as a physical 3, a poormans version of Ron Artest....wish Danny/Doc would have given him a shot, then we could have kept Perk and been much stronger in 11's playoff run.

cow

Still struggling to get a link on this new tablet, so I couldn't watch the game, instead watching nba.com play-by-play and our game on thread.

1.  It's interesting that, when KJ said he was tired of watching Crawford, bring in Pressey, I looked at the boxscore and Crawford was the high scorer with 10 points on 2-4, had 2 assists and 0 TOs.  Not bad.  I completely relate to KJ, I struggle watching Mr. Herky-Jerky too, it just shows how stats only tell part of the tale.

2.  Sully with 19 and 10 in 23 minutes has completed his comeback.  A glimmer?  Maybe, if you consider Sully to be one of our core going forward.

3.  It's hard to win a game when your starting frontcourt shoots 10-33.  Jeff Green is unfathomable.  KO is starting to realize that pre-season, where you play against actual NBA players, is a lot tougher than summer league where you're mostly playing against other rookies, journeymen and wannabes.

3.  Pressey now has 12 assists and only 1 TO in 46 total  minutes.  That's pretty damn impressive, statistically.

4.  Thaddeus Young had 20 points on 9-15.  Who the hell was guarding him?  Oh, yeah.

5.  They had 30 fast break points to our 12.  They also had 59 points in the paint to 36 by us.  Their only center was Spencer Hawes.  Noel and Kwame Brown didn't play.  Their starting lineup was Hawes, Young at SF and 3 guards and they killed us in the paint?  All of Young's points were in the paint.  Green only took 2 shots in the paint (and missed both).  

5.  This is the 3rd time we did a much better job of taking care of the rock than them but shot poorly and gave up way too many easy baskets.


bob


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For some reason, this game was the most frustrating to watch out of the three.

I guess it's because I know Philly won't be any good this year and that Boston should at least be able to handle a team with so many problems. And because it'd be nice to see a win.

However, I realize that 3 games in is too soon to make any stark declarations. Well... maybe not.

1. This team doesn't push the ball. At all.

It's insane, considering the fact that they don't have the personnel to contend in a predominantly half court game. I think they'll lose many games because of playing this style, as opposed to their lineup itself. They finally have the youth to run other teams off the court, and it's not being utilized. Stevens will have to develop a means to motivate his guys to push the pace in all 4 quarters, not just the 1st and 2nd. If you don't have Rondo, you have no business trying to play a half court game.

2. Defense is nowhere to be found.

I've seen on multiple occasions where guys just let the ball handler dribble past them for easy buckets. There have also been a lot of uncontested shots. I will say that guys have been willing to get in their and sacrifice their bodies to draw charges (even though Sully got called for a few blocking fouls).

3. They're taking naps mid-game.

It appears to me that as soon as the 3rd quarter opens, the entire team goes catatonic. Their offense has been painfully stagnant in the 3rd. Last night, they started making some baskets after going cold, but they weren't stopping Philly at the other end. You can't generate runs without stops.

From my observations, Sullinger and Bradley look like they are the most ready to play.


KJ

kj its still preseason, they maybe working on different aspects of their halfcourt game? looking forward to seeing tonights game....

bobheckler Sully is definitely a glimmer, he seems pretty healthy after serious surgery, that is a glimmer....hes rebounding the shot out of the ball. I'd say hes ahead of schedule and showing alot of Kevin Love in his game.

cowens/oldschool,

Yeah, I know it's early. But I can see that it's going to be a problem. As long as Rondo is not playing, this team will not succeed running a half court game. Unless Pressey gets the minutes and can elevate his game substantially.


KJ

Going to be a LONG season.

KJ,

I hate to say it, but I don't believe Rondo is a particularly good ball distributor in the half court. He's pretty good at the inside-out game, but I believe he's no better than average in the pick-and-roll, and I'm not a fan of the way he so frequently just stands on the perimeter and waits for guys to get open rather than moving himself to create inside passing lanes. Hopefully some combination of a new coaching philosophy, the increased responsibility thrust on him, and his own motivation from having to miss so much time will encourage him to become a better halfcourt PG. And I'd be delighted if Brad insisted on more picks, which I think would help open things up for Rondo in the halfcourt.

Sam

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sam wrote:KJ,

I hate to say it, but I don't believe Rondo is a particularly good ball distributor in the half court.  He's pretty good at the inside-out game, but I believe he's no better than average in the pick-and-roll, and I'm not a fan of the way he so frequently just stands on the perimeter and waits for guys to get open rather than moving himself to create inside passing lanes.  Hopefully some combination of a new coaching philosophy, the increased responsibility thrust on him, and his own motivation from having to miss so much time will encourage him to become a better halfcourt PG.  And I'd be delighted if Brad insisted on more picks, which I think would help open things up for Rondo in the halfcourt.

Sam

I'd have to say that during his time with Boston, he's almost always played within a half court system and statistically makes the most assists on average. Also, we have to keep in mind the fact that the teams Rondo played on before were older, less athletic. He had to wait for guys like Pierce, KG, who are both not particularly fast guys. Now he has guys that can move, and if Stevens coaches them to do so, we could see Rondo make a killing with his passing ability.


KJ

Sam

Any good PG in the NBA can run the pick and roll. It is the most basic play in basketball. It is rather perplexing that you would indicate that Rondo is average running a halfcourt offense.

If you recall he lead the league in assists and considering that those assists did not come from fast break basketball therefore they had to come in a halfcourt offense.

I have no idea what the basis is for your assertion but I would suggest that you take a look at the efficiency rating for Rondo in a halfcout set.

Rajon runs the best halfcout offense that we have seen in 50 years. it does not matter if he is standing still or driving the lane. He makes great decision by getting the ball to the right player at the right time.

dboss

dboss I have to assumes Sams comparing him to Bob Cousy, his favorite.

KJ and Dboss,

There are many different ways to record assists. Without more than an ounce of PG creativity, Allen Iverson averaged more than 6 APG in his career mainly by driving and dishing. Rondo is excellent at penetrating and passing out to an open man on the perimeter. I believe he's recorded a large proportion of his assists that way—especially to both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce as well as (over the years) guys like Eddie House and James Posey. Pierce and KG also created assists for Rondo on a lot of plays in which he made routine entry passes and they hit difficult shots because they were good offensive players.

Sorry, but—other than the admittedly important exceptions mentioned above—I don't see him as particularly creative as a catalyst for halfcourt opportunities. Why do you think the offense so frequently bogged down in the past few years? At least partly because of the double whammy whereby Rondo frequently stood on the perimeter and waited for teammates to make moves on a team where there was too little motion in the offense. In such a situation. a top halfcourt PG would have created passing lanes by being more active in moving around the perimeter himself. That also would have forced defenders our of the defensive positions in which they all too often were "dug in." And finally, I don't believe he sufficiently pushed the ball (and I'm NOT talking about fast breaks) so the halfcourt offense (1) could have more frequently started earlier in the shot clock and (2) would not have eventuated in so many last-second "hero heaves" or possessions in which they only got to run one option.

Since Rondo arrived, he's been my favorite player on this team, and it's not my intention to diss him gratuitously. Perhaps Brad's motion offense will loosen things up to make it easier for Rondo to operate in the halfcourt. Perhaps a larger contingent of relatively fleet wings will create more fast break opportunities, or at least their early presence in the halfcourt will encourage Rondo to push the ball more regularly (and again, I'm NOT talking about fast breaks).

I'm not at all saying he's a bad PG in the halfcourt, but I don't believe his creativity in the halfcourt is what it could be.

Sam

Sam,

Rondo standing at the perimeter, is that more a product of himself or Doc's coaching? Maybe Doc never felt his offense needed Rondo to do that, in congruence with your statement that there were very good offensive players anyway.

But, even if Rondo was more "mobile" back then, I'm not sure how much it'd have affected, since a lot of guys were just standing around or Pierce was running isolation plays. This is another aspect that I'd attribute to coaching techniques.

This roster currently has a solid rotation of guys that can move about the court quite well, so we should see a lot of assists involving more movement, likely more than what Rondo has averaged in the past.


KJ

KJ,

Nothing can make me believe that Doc coached Rondo to stand at the perimeter and wait for something good to happen.  Something's got to move out there; and if the mountain won't come to Mohammed, then maybe Mohammed has to go to the mountain.  When a PG moves on the perimeter, the passing angles automatically change; openings are revealed; defenders must adjust to his changing location.

One of Doc's mantras was the need to push the ball, and it too seldom got pushed.  I highly doubt that he was making public comments on that score but privately saying to Rondo, "Hey, it's okay if you don't push the ball."

As for Pierce running isolation plays, that wouldn't have caused Rondo to stand on the perimeter with the ball because Rondo wouldn't have the ball in such instances.  Pierce would have the ball.

I can't prove it, but I'd be willing to bet that Rondo's obstinance in some of these matters was a big part of why the Celtics tried to trade him for Chris Paul.

I agree that the number of Celtics assists per game should increase.  It has already showing signs of doing so, and Rondo isn't even playing.  I also hope they'll get more possessions per game and take more shots per game.  How many of the assists will be "assists of convenience" rather than "creatively generated assists" will be interesting.

Sam

Sam and KJ

Cousy and his teammates were always on the same page. During his years he had very little turnover of teammates from any given year to the next.

Rondo has not had this luxury and this season he'll be with a virtually new starting lineup along with a new coach something Cousy never had to deal with. Also now to plug in the return from injury factor too. When he comes back I just hope he is close to 100% and more than that I hope he is 100% hungry.

Pushing the ball up is a must for this team to be successful.

beat

Beat,

I'm not trying to compare Rondo with Cousy.  This is obviously a different time and a very different set of circumstances.  But, since you brought it up, Cousy had many years in which there was frequent turnover of teammates—namely, the six seasons before the Russell era.  In fact, only one player (Ed MacAuley) was his teammate during all six of those seasons.

Moreover, Cousy also had to make many adjustments to accommodate his radically unusual style to the NBA game of the time.  He accomplished all of that quite early in his career, and—aside from the one specific improvement he made it a point to instal each year—his game was pretty much a finished product way before Russ's arrival and way before the long period of team continuity during the Tyranny.

What his early teams could not do adequately was to defend the rim and rebound, which weren't his jobs (although Cooz did average 6.3 rebounds per game during that early six-year stretch).  And yet, they still ran a hellacious fast break, and Cooz was an obvious master of the halfcourt game regardless of the continuing influx of players.  In fact, half of his eight consecutive seasons of leading the league in assists occurred before Russ and Company came aboard.

Sam

Sam

Obviously I didn't see Cousy until near the end of his career. During the Championship years there were less frequent changes to the lineup than perhaps in the beginning of his career.

Thing is what I do remember from those teams was everyone knew their roles... and above that, knew each other.

Not fair to compare I agree. I do believe the task at hand this year for Rondo is going to be the biggest challenge of his career, coming off an injury, new coach and players, and given he will be looking to cash in on another big payday soon. Hopefully there is more motivation for him than just $$$$$ but if that helps so be it.

beat

Sam

I think that you have style and substance.  The substance of what is accomplished is the most important measurement.

Cousy, Stockton and even Tony Parker have very similar styles in the way they play (played) PG in the half-court offense.  Their style can be best described as constant dribbling in and out of the paint, around screens and in general using  lot of misdirection.  They used this to create passing lanes and angles for their teammates.

We all can agree that this style has produced consistent continuity in the half court offenses.

Rondo does not play like that.  He does penetrate and dish but teams have always backed off him because he can blow by anyone that tries to get into him.  Rondo plays a different style but the substance has made him an Allstar and one of the most dangerous PG's in the NBA.  His style is certainly dangerous enough for the Lakers to put Kobe on him and for the Heat to have Lebron cover him.  If Rondo was not well above average in running the half court offense those type of defensive assignments by the very top players would never have taken place.  Even though teams back off of him he is still dropping double doubles and triple doubles.

Sam I think that you only evaluate a good PG in terms of what Cousy did and how Cousy did it.

Again you have style and you have substance.  The bottom line is that no one could stop Cousy from finding his teamamates for an easy basket and no one can stop Rondo from doing the exact same thing.

I am actually more impressed to some degree that Rondo is able to pass the ball as well without dribbling as much as other PG's. The Celtics teams for years has been ranked at the top end of the NBA in terms of field goal percentage. When you speak about creativity your are actually I think referring to style.  The creativity of Cousy certainly did not lead to more assists than those for the un-creative Rajon Rondo.  I actually think Rajon is as good or better as a pure passer than Cousy and can make every single pass that Cousy could make plus Rondo passes better than Cousy did with his left hand.

I could argue that Rajon is actually better than Cousy was running the half court offense.  Consider that a lot of Cousy's assist were made playing real fast break basketball.  I would bet that Rondo has a higher percentage of assists in the half court offence than Cousy did.

dboss