What are Reasonable Expectations for the Celtics' Jeff Green?

hes not better than Conley, Varejao, Marion, Splitter, Gallinari or Perkins, you can bring all the stats....I look at it if you trade each player for the other, how would that team be, better or worse? obviously Thunder need a Perk more than they need a 3rd-4th scoring option SF.

cowens/oldschool wrote:One more thing about Jeff Green, his first year here everyone said hes trying to adjust, hes in a new system, he needs a training camp, etc. That first season is the same Jeff Green as right now, he shows flashes, he has one game of 20 plus and now 3 years later, this is still all he does, he will never avg 20 points a game, he was brought here to be an athletic version of Posey and be a core building block for the future... we know hes not quite near that. Posey got as much out of his skillset and abilities as he could, he was clever and cagey. Green is just an athletic tease, afraid or unable to really take charge or play hard/consistent for any significant stretch.

Jeff also has not had much time to play with Rondo.

Is it honestly important if he's a 30 ppg scorer? I doubt it. Can Jeff be considered part of a championship team? Who knows, but it's not as if Kevin Durant or Paul George are going to sign in Boston. Green is a top 10 SF in the league right now whether people will recognize that or not. He isn't perfect, but I think he's showing more than he was earlier in the season. As I mentioned earlier, he's playing more aggressive and is demanding the ball more. Not only that but he's a solid defender. He needs to work on his consistency but I can't really complain that he's not Pierce.

Why exactly does Green need to be "The Guy?" I haven't heard anyone come up with an explanation as to why that's necessary of him.




KJ

cowens/oldschool wrote:Unhappiness? I don't think your a stat geek, but those stats didn't answer my question which you sidestepped and didn't answer, the original question you used nice words like Bill Clinton and wouldn't answer.

I have answered your question about 15 different ways on this matter...but lets go round one more time.

In 2008 when KG was still averaging a double double and shooting 54% from the field - Perk was a good complimentary player to play beside him.  But lets go back in time and remember what happened 64 games into the season.  Danny brought in PJ Brown - in part because Perkins was such a horrendous FT shooter and poor offensive player, that he needed to give Doc options down the stretch in the playoffs. 

Since you are such a fan of stats - here is one for you.  Guess how many minutes Perk averaged in the NBA Finals in 2008?  18.
Guess how many PJ Brown averaged? 18.6
Guess who hit the shot to send the Celtics to the Eastern Conference Finals?  PJ Brown.

So Doc trusted a guy who joined the team with 18 games left in the season to play more minutes down the stretch in the NBA finals than his starting center.  And there is nothing geeky about that stat.  That is a fact, go read the game logs if you memory needs some refreshing.

If I were Danny Ainge in 2012 - with the Big 3 already showing signs of declining, and someone offered me a player with the upside that Jeff Green brings to the table - I would do that deal 100 out of 100 times.  Perk is a hard nosed player who I like a lot - but as I have said probably said 20 times out here - is good on a good team and very mediocre on a poor or rebuilding team. 

If the Celtics had Perk right now instead of Jeff Green - they would have the worst record in the NBA.  But since you have been in favor of tanking it from the beginning, maybe that is your preferred outcome.

Kleen the trade was in 2011, guess your one of the few fans that would do that boneheaded move all over again and weaken that team, what a shame to weaken a team that was so close....ironic right now alot of fans and pundits want to get rid of Green and everyone knows we still need a legit center, ironic right?

A second championship for that squad (which we had a shot at with Perk) would have meant SO MUCH to this franchise and those players, it would have absolutely been worth an extra year of struggle, or not having a so-so small forward like Green to torment us with his inconsistency.

Just my opinion.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kleen the trade was in 2011, guess your one of the few fans that would do that boneheaded move all over again and weaken that team, what a shame to weaken a team that was so close....ironic right now alot of fans and pundits want to get rid of Green and everyone knows we still need a legit center, ironic right?

Yeah...what is even more ironic is that a year before Danny Ainge (the aforementioned "Bonehead") made the move to bring in KG and Allen, the Celtics had not only one center (your beloved Perkins) but also Al Jefferson, as well as Rondo AND Paul Pierce (who is clearly 3 or 4 times the player that Jeff Green is)

Guess what their record was that year - with TWO "so called" legit centers?  24-58.

So this years team will end up winning MORE GAMES - with a 4th option player leading the team in scoring, than a team with 2 legit centers and two hall of famers.  Go figure   

That was Rondos rookie year and we had alot of other really young pieces, Telfaif, G Green and pieces that didn't fit, Wally, Raef. Perk wasn't ready yet that year and they never played Big Al and Perk together, which I and some others wanted to see and Pierce missed 30 games with a broken foot. I think they started Big Al and Ryan Gomes at the C-PF positions....Doc tanked that year and I was fine with it that year.

steve3344 wrote:A second championship for that squad (which we had a shot at with Perk) would have meant SO MUCH to this franchise and those players, it would have absolutely been worth an extra year of struggle, or not having a so-so small forward like Green to torment us with his inconsistency.

Just my opinion.

the impact Green made as a complimentary or major load core player in all his time here paled in comparison to the chemistry and intangibles that Perk had with that starting 5, a starting 5 that never lost a playoff series. Now all those players, KG, Pierce and Ray are all gone and Jeff Green who was hoped to be a key piece in the future at the time of the trade is on the trading block....what does that tell you?

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Anybody see that great pick by Perk on Melo? thats what we've been missing since he left.

The Celtics have been missing illegal screens and cheap shots? Because that's what I saw.


Perk shoves his shoulder into Carmelo right as Carmelo arrives. Look at Perk's shoulders when he initially sets the pick and where his shoulders are after delivering the blow -- it's a 90-degree turn. Heck, it could draw a flag in the NFL because Carmelo was in a defenseless position when Perk delivered the blow. And make no mistake, that's what Perk did -- deliver a blow, not set a screen.

Melo's teammates let him down by not calling out the screen, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a cheap shot and an illegal screen. I can imagine what you'd say if Metta World Mayhem had done this to a Celtic.

if you don't like playing or watching sports with contact, start watching badmitten

RosalieTCeltics wrote:No comment. It is a losing battle I face!

Rosalie

with all due respect, really weak post

To those who would still do that trade after all we know now:

FACT 1 the move weakened a team with great chemistry and HoF core with limited shelf life that was poised to make a run to make up for previous seasons loss.

FACT 2 the Heat hadn't jelled yet, they were vulnerable as Lebron would have terrible Finals vs Dallas, what would our defense with Perk, KG and a young Rondo have done to them?

FACT 3 the main player we acquired had no impact that 11 season and the playoff run and his play is similar to that impact today....not a keeper going forward.

FACT 4 that player is being actively shopped, what does that tell you?

Whoever thinks that trade was good for this franchise is in major denial, they have a warped sense of the game. poor Jeff, its not fair, its not fair to compare him to Pierce, hes only making....yada, yada, yada.

FACT 5 Life is not fair, that trade denied Pierce and KG a legit shot at another ring....good move right?

I'm in the mood for taking on all the Perk bashers!!!! bring it on!!!!

cowens/oldschool wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:No comment. It is a losing battle I face!

Rosalie

with all due respect, really weak post

Why is it weak cow?

Just cause she disagrees?

I tend to agree with her.......this is getting way too old. It's over and done. Perk is way overvalued by you (IMHO) and thats fine. He was a key piece for us at one time, but he's not here and he isn't coming back. Been thru this for 3 years now. No one is going to change your mind and I'm not gonna try to. So please let it rest.

Time to move on.

beat

I didn't see any comment on anything, but thanks for defending her.

cowens/oldschool wrote:if you don't like playing or watching sports with contact, start watching badmitten

Your response to my breakdown of that screen is to get all macho? LOL, whatever.

I'm fine with tough, hard, clean play that includes lots of contact, but if you think that screen was legal and wasn't a cheap shot, you're delusional. There was 1:46 left in the game, the game was decided, and Perk decided to crush Melo with a blind side screen in the backcourt? Classy.

Perk has many fine qualities, and you're obviously free to consider Perk the greatest role player to ever play the game, but that doesn't mean others won't view him more objectively than you do. I can point to many plays where Perk exhibited toughness, but that is not one of them.

Perk set a screen, Melo ran into him, was he supposed to move the other way? for his own sake Melo shouldn't run into him, one of Melos teamates should have called out the screen, warning him. Basketball fundamental 101

cowens/oldschool wrote:Perk set a screen, Melo ran into him, was he supposed to move the other way? for his own sake Melo shouldn't run into him, one of Melos teamates should have called out the screen, warning him. Basketball fundamental 101

Did you even read my analysis of the play? You are totally ignoring these facts:

• Perk doesn't just set a screen, he turns 90 degrees to deliver a quick and powerful blow with his shoulder to Melo as he arrives.

• He decided to do this in the backcourt with under two minutes to play and the game decided.

• The "screen" served no basketball purpose. Durant was ahead of Melo and would've had no difficulty getting into the frontcourt without the screen. Melo was just shadowing him and not trying to steal the ball.

I already pointed out that Melo's teammates let him down by not calling out the screen, although Chandler tried to at the last minute. But just because his teammates didn't let him know doesn't mean it's open season on Melo.

The options aren't just a) throw your shoulder as hard as possible into Melo or b) move the other way. There's also option c) set a normal screen or, even better, option d) don't bother with a screen because Durant didn't need it and the game was decided.

I guess I should attempt a respond to the question...reasonable expectations for Jeff Green.

I think we can all agree that we expected more from him.  But now we know that he is not going to be a 25 PPG scorer.  That's ok with me.

I would like for him to be an 18-20 PPG scorer with 6 rebounds and 4-5 assists per game. I want hin to continue to play good defense. I would really like to see his FG percentage increase.

I think he has greatly neglected opportunities to score in that mid range area.  It has been feast or famine from behind the arc.  I do believe that he can deliver on my expectations.  I think the Celtics would be well served to let this year play out.

However, if the Celtics decide to trade Jeff Green they better get a significant upgrade at the center position.  Other than that I see no good reason to trade him.

I think that mrkleen has presented a very strong argument because it gets down to the nitty gritty of value.  

In general, there may be no good reason to trade either Bass or Green unless a starting center is coming our way.  We really do not need more draft picks.

dboss

I had hoped this thread would put the matter of expectations of Jeff Green into a more realistic perspective. Unfortunately, the focus of the thread has devolved in other directions. So I thought I'd look up some facts in order to add some reality to the emotion-based claims concerning Jeff.

1. Quick now, guess what percentage of Green's games this season have resulted in double-digit scoring. 2. What's the longest stretch over which Jeff has scored in double figures? 3. And what's the longest stretch Jeff over which Jeff has failed to score in double figure?

Actually, don't bother scurrying to Google because this was a rhetorical request.

• Jeff has scored in double figures in 83% of his games (43 of 52).

• Jeff had one streak of scoring in double figures in 12 consecutive games this season.

• The longest streak of single-digit games by Jeff this season is two.

Moreover, we all know that Jeff's forte is not as a creator of offense, although he can do so on occasion. He's at his best when collaborating with a good ball distributor. And he has yet to play in a single game this season in which his starting point guard was a ball distributor of high caliber, experienced, and at full strength.

The stats I quoted don't bespeak perfection. But they're sufficiently positive (in a less-than-positive season) to offer some pretty strong glimmers to fans who are genuinely eager to recognize glimmers rather than succumbing to tangents that are less relevant to the present and future Celtics.

Go Celtics! And, as long as he's a Celtics, go Jeff!

Sam

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Perk set a screen, Melo ran into him, was he supposed to move the other way? for his own sake Melo shouldn't run into him, one of Melos teamates should have called out the screen, warning him. Basketball fundamental 101

Did you even read my analysis of the play? You are totally ignoring these facts:

• Perk doesn't just set a screen, he turns 90 degrees to deliver a quick and powerful blow with his shoulder to Melo as he arrives.

• He decided to do this in the backcourt with under two minutes to play and the game decided.

• The "screen" served no basketball purpose. Durant was ahead of Melo and would've had no difficulty getting into the frontcourt without the screen. Melo was just shadowing him and not trying to steal the ball.

I already pointed out that Melo's teammates let him down by not calling out the screen, although Chandler tried to at the last minute. But just because his teammates didn't let him know doesn't mean it's open season on Melo.

The options aren't just a) throw your shoulder as hard as possible into Melo or b) move the other way. There's also option c) set a normal screen or, even better, option d) don't bother with a screen because Durant didn't need it and the game was decided.

bro Perk is not built that way, put him in a professional game he only knows one way, its called muscle memory or fighting reflexes once its ingrained in you.....don't get too close.

Sam I don't mean to bash Jeff Green, he is a mad dunker, he can do alot of things....I root for him.

Did the great Dr J ever get bashed by media all those years 76ers couldn't win? Why do so many people make excuses for him? the real world is not that sympathetic IMHO.

Why Cow, I never addressed a word of my post to you. Why would you take my post personally? In a very trying season, I'm just trying my best to make sure the board stays as interesting and as relevant as possible to the Celtics' present and future.

Sam

Let's give Jeff at least a couple of months playing with Rajon before throwing him onto the trash heap of history, ok?

cow,

At first, I would've agreed that the Perkins-for-Green trade wasn't a fully beneficial one. But Perkins did tear his ACL, and statistically, he has not been anywhere near what he was in Boston as he is in Oklahoma City. Is it reasonable to assume that the Celtics would have gotten past Miami? Perhaps. But there are no guarantees. What if one of the Big Three or Rondo had gotten hurt during that run? Or what if Perkins himself was hurt again? I feel there's way too many unknowns to ascertain another Banner would've been the end result.

The main problem that we were all discussing here for months is the fact that Green wasn't stepping up, and he wasn't being more aggressive. Well, he's been stepping it up lately, and demanding the ball more. What else do you want him to do?

The other factor you are leaving about is the complete lack of chemistry on this team for the early part of the year. There was no true point guard and still no legit center. Green's job, along with everyone else's was exponentially more difficult. Now that Rondo's back, we are witnessing his residual impact on the rest of the team. Green is feeding off of Rondo's intensity and he has been playing better lately.

As MrKleen has been stating, Green is essentially a bargain for what he provides. I'd much rather see how Green plays after some extended court time with Rondo. That's the only fair way to judge.



KJ