Re: 2016 Playoff Thread

[swish]

The beauty of 2nd guessing is that the assumed different strategy (moves) will always end up with a better result. Hindsight is indeed perfect.

swish

[Outside]

Who else did they have to replace Waiters at guard? He stunk.

He was pretty good defensively, though not superb when put on Klay or Curry. Waiters was able to neutralize Livingston for much of the series. His superior lower body strength kept Livingston from gaining the position he likes for his midrange jumpers. I'm not a fan of Waiters, but he is still young, and he did improve a lot toward the end of the season.

But there's no doubt that Waiters and Roberson were a liability offensively. They each had a couple of good games scoring, but they made it way to easy for the Warriors to leave them. Waiters in particular shot poorly -- 35.8% overall and 31.8% on threes.

Anthony Morrow would have been better offensively, but he's a defensive liability. I don't think OKC had a lot of options.

It is so tough to find good two-way players. There aren't a lot of them.

[dbrown4]

If you think Donovan was terrible, wait'll next round. Lou is going to has his ass handed to him by Kerr. Once again, CLE is going to try to win the World Championship with a rookie NBA coach. I think I've seen this somewhere before.

Except for LeBron, is/are there any weaknesses in the match ups or in the major categories?

The first half of the WCF Game 7 was pretty gut wrenching. But the third quarter took the cake! Outside, the Finals will be anticlimactic. Even with the Irving/Love add-ons. GSW went to the mat this past series and I officially dub the Western Conference Finals THE NBA Finals. Back-to-backer coming up. I'm going to go in 5, though.

db

[cowens/oldschool]

Donavan was terrible, how do you play Waiters 30 minutes a game and Kantor gets 8 minutes? How do you not tell/shout to Durant to get it going in the 3rd and run plays for him in that crucial stretch? The guy Kantor can score, you need offense cause Durant was exposed as a guy who can't carry a team or make players better. He had 3 chancs to lead his team to one more victory and the professional scorer couldn't hit a big shot to save his life. Where was he in 3rd when his team only scored 12 points? against lesser foes he can score 12 points in a quarter all by himself. Durant couldn't do what hes supposed to do.

Cow,

If you take Waiters out and put Kanter in then you have a lineup of Adams, Kanter, Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka.  1 guard.  If Kanter replaces, let's say, Ibaka, then you still only have 1 guard.  If you replace Adams, then who is your 5th man?  Roberson?  A good defender but he was getting run ragged off of screens.  He covered Thompson most of the night.  As it is, Roberson played 39 minutes and was 2-11 from the field.  Take Roberson out and Thompson goes completely crazy (21 points, 7-19 but 6-11 from 3.  Take Roberson off him and those numbers increase by 50%).  

My point is that unless Donovan sat Adams down and played Kanter he had no good options for going big because GSW's guards demanded serious attention.  Curry hit how many contested 3s over Adams?  They would have been WIDE OPEN 3s if Kanter was on him.  GSW back court was 13-23 from 3.  If you go big the score would have been even more lopsided.  Saying "they shoot 3s, we pound them inside and get the +1s" is easy to say but not so easy to do.  GSW's supporters are very quick.  You can beat them with good pnrs, like Adams did several times, but not old school "dump it in and let them work" offense like Kanter would give them.  They will get swarmed.

Against other teams, sure, that could work.  Against teams that can shoot 3s like GSW, or even against the Cavaliers, who are leading the playoffs in 3pt fgas AND fg%, that is suicide.


bob


.

Kantor used to have alot of 25 point games with the Jazz, he can shoot and score down low better than Ibaka or Adams, you give Adams 5 less minutes and Ibaka 7-8 less minutes, because you need more scoring and your not getting it last night from Roberson, who I like as a defender and Waiters, who should be out of the league soon. I blame Durant more worse because his job and reputation is as a dead eye shooter and scorer, Westbrook has to score and distribute. Outside made a great point that on defense Thunder were switching too much and too easily, the primary guard defender should fight through or around the screen, so the big doesn't have to go out on the perimeter so much, especially against shooters at the Splash Bros level....Billy D's coaching stunk up the joint too.

[cowens/oldschool]

Last 2 games Kantor was 8-12 from field, so what does Donovan do? gives Waiters 30 plus minutes and lets Durant and Westbrook brick everything in sight...????

Even Barkley said they've got to give Kantor more minutes.

[steve3344]

Last 2 games Kantor was 8-12 from field, so what does Donovan do? gives Waiters 30 plus minutes and lets Durant and Westbrook brick everything in sight...????

Even Barkley said they've got to give Kantor more minutes.

Can't do that 'til October.

[bobheckler]

Donavan was terrible, how do you play Waiters 30 minutes a game and Kantor gets 8 minutes? How do you not tell/shout to Durant to get it going in the 3rd and run plays for him in that crucial stretch? The guy Kantor can score, you need offense cause Durant was exposed as a guy who can't carry a team or make players better. He had 3 chancs to lead his team to one more victory and the professional scorer couldn't hit a big shot to save his life. Where was he in 3rd when his team only scored 12 points? against lesser foes he can score 12 points in a quarter all by himself. Durant couldn't do what hes supposed to do.

Cow,

If you take Waiters out and put Kanter in then you have a lineup of Adams, Kanter, Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka.  1 guard.  If Kanter replaces, let's say, Ibaka, then you still only have 1 guard.  If you replace Adams, then who is your 5th man?  Roberson?  A good defender but he was getting run ragged off of screens.  He covered Thompson most of the night.  As it is, Roberson played 39 minutes and was 2-11 from the field.  Take Roberson out and Thompson goes completely crazy (21 points, 7-19 but 6-11 from 3.  Take Roberson off him and those numbers increase by 50%).  

My point is that unless Donovan sat Adams down and played Kanter he had no good options for going big because GSW's guards demanded serious attention.  Curry hit how many contested 3s over Adams?  They would have been WIDE OPEN 3s if Kanter was on him.  GSW back court was 13-23 from 3.  If you go big the score would have been even more lopsided.  Saying "they shoot 3s, we pound them inside and get the +1s" is easy to say but not so easy to do.  GSW's supporters are very quick.  You can beat them with good pnrs, like Adams did several times, but not old school "dump it in and let them work" offense like Kanter would give them.  They will get swarmed.

Against other teams, sure, that could work.  Against teams that can shoot 3s like GSW, or even against the Cavaliers, who are leading the playoffs in 3pt fgas AND fg%, that is suicide.


bob


.

Kantor used to have alot of 25 point games with the Jazz, he can shoot and score down low better than Ibaka or Adams, you give Adams 5 less minutes and Ibaka 7-8 less minutes, because you need more scoring and your not getting it last night from Roberson, who I like as a defender and Waiters, who should be out of the league soon. I blame Durant more worse because his job and reputation is as a dead eye shooter and scorer, Westbrook has to score and distribute. Outside made a great point that on defense Thunder were switching too much and too easily, the primary guard defender should fight through or around the screen, so the big doesn't have to go out on the perimeter so much, especially against shooters at the Splash Bros level....Billy D's coaching stunk up the joint too.

Cow,

With all due respect to Outside, we've all seen what happens if you play Curry or Thompson to drive off the pick and don't switch and force their man to fight through the pick.  They only need the smallest, tiniest sliver of daylight.  Yes, Adams got caught out on top a bunch of times alone with Curry and yes, as I posted last night during the game, Curry hit some big 3s over his outstretched arms but if Adams didn't switch that would be all the time Curry would need to hit the shot anyway.  I can't remember ever seeing a shooter who needs so little space to hit such tough shots as Curry.  He needs no time and no space and Thompson doesn't need much more.  Avery Bradley is First Team All-Defense, got the most vote points for any guard to earn that honor, and even he was getting lit up by Curry when we played them, he just got lit up less than others.

The only thing that I think could have helped is if Adams swarmed Curry off the pick, and then Curry's defender helped and swarmed him too.  That would leave Curry's pick man free but if you are swarming well it might be hard for Curry to find him.  Otherwise, you're doomed.  Curry and Thompson aren't even streak shooters, they are killers who might be cold until they see the ball go through the net and then it's on.  GSW's inside game is all premised upon the undeniable fact that perimeter defense has to be a primary priority when you play the Dubs and not because the Dubs' inside players are good.  Offensively they stink but they get easier shots because your defenders are all out there at the arc doing whatever they Hell they can do to make life harder for Curry and Thompson.


bob


.

[cowens/oldschool]

The beauty of 2nd guessing is that the assumed different strategy (moves) will always end up with a better result. Hindsight is indeed perfect.

  swish

if you look on pg 7 during game 6 I was questioning why they took out Kantor, and I remember he just scored and gave them the lead, and he was getting open for great looks underneath and GS at that time had no answers....then he disappeared....???? I'm from the old school, if it works you keep on going to it, make them stop it, keep on doing it until....instead the coach stops it, what a fockin dummy!!!

[steve3344]

The beauty of 2nd guessing is that the assumed different strategy (moves) will always end up with a better result. Hindsight is indeed perfect.

  swish

if you look on pg 7 during game 6 I was questioning why they took out Kantor, and I remember he just scored and gave them the lead....then he disappeared....????

Quite a trick to make a 7-foot 250 pound guy disappear.

[cowens/oldschool]

Good point bob, you have seen alot more of the Warriors than me. Lets get Buddy Hield!!!

[Outside]

Cow,

With all due respect to Outside, we've all seen what happens if you play Curry or Thompson to drive off the pick and don't switch and force their man to fight through the pick. They only need the smallest, tiniest sliver of daylight. Yes, Adams got caught out on top a bunch of times alone with Curry and yes, as I posted last night during the game, Curry hit some big 3s over his outstretched arms but if Adams didn't switch that would be all the time Curry would need to hit the shot anyway. I can't remember ever seeing a shooter who needs so little space to hit such tough shots as Curry. He needs no time and no space and Thompson doesn't need much more. Avery Bradley is First Team All-Defense, got the most points for a guard, and even he was getting lit up by Curry when we played them, he just got lit up less than others.

The only thing that I think could have helped is if Adams swarmed Curry off the pick, and then Curry's defender helped and swarmed him too. That would leave Curry's pick man free but if you are swarming well it might be hard for Curry to find him. Otherwise, you're doomed. Curry and Thompson aren't even streak shooters, they are killers who might be cold until they see the ball go through the net and then it's on. GSW's inside game is all premised upon the undeniable fact that perimeter defense has to be a primary priority when you play the Dubs and not because the Dubs' inside players are good. Offensively they stink but they get easier shots because your defenders are all out there at the arc doing whatever they Hell they can do to make life harder for Curry and Thompson.

You're absolutely correct about Curry and Thompson needed just a sliver of space. When they're on, it doesn't make much difference what you do -- switch, don't switch, double, show hard, whatever, they're going to make ridiculous shots.

What I saw, however, was the Thunder switching at the mere hint of a screen, when the primary defender on Klay or Curry could have easily stayed with his man. OKC runs screens for Westbrook and Durant, but why is it that you saw Klay or Iguodala still on their guy at the end of the possession far more than you saw Roberson, Westbrook, or Waiters still on Klay or Curry. Sometimes that was justified because the Warriors screen really well, but by the end of the series, the Thunder had quit even attempting to fight through screens.

I fault Westbrook in particular. He didn't play up on his man, ducked under screens, and forced the big guy to switch, which is exactly what Golden State wanted. Sometimes he initiated the switch when the screen was still five feet away. He scoffed at the notion that Curry was a good defender, but Curry is better than him. Just once I'd like to see Westbrook turn on the jets and run back on D at warp speed the way he does when he has the ball.

I thought Durant had an excellent series defensively. He was disruptive, he gave complete effort, and his length and awareness was a real problem for Golden State. When Curry and Thompson were in supershooter mode in those last three games, they could make threes on anyone, but Durant was as tough a cover as anyone out there.

[cowens/oldschool]

Cow,

With all due respect to Outside, we've all seen what happens if you play Curry or Thompson to drive off the pick and don't switch and force their man to fight through the pick. They only need the smallest, tiniest sliver of daylight. Yes, Adams got caught out on top a bunch of times alone with Curry and yes, as I posted last night during the game, Curry hit some big 3s over his outstretched arms but if Adams didn't switch that would be all the time Curry would need to hit the shot anyway. I can't remember ever seeing a shooter who needs so little space to hit such tough shots as Curry. He needs no time and no space and Thompson doesn't need much more. Avery Bradley is First Team All-Defense, got the most points for a guard, and even he was getting lit up by Curry when we played them, he just got lit up less than others.

The only thing that I think could have helped is if Adams swarmed Curry off the pick, and then Curry's defender helped and swarmed him too. That would leave Curry's pick man free but if you are swarming well it might be hard for Curry to find him. Otherwise, you're doomed. Curry and Thompson aren't even streak shooters, they are killers who might be cold until they see the ball go through the net and then it's on. GSW's inside game is all premised upon the undeniable fact that perimeter defense has to be a primary priority when you play the Dubs and not because the Dubs' inside players are good. Offensively they stink but they get easier shots because your defenders are all out there at the arc doing whatever they Hell they can do to make life harder for Curry and Thompson.

You're absolutely correct about Curry and Thompson needed just a sliver of space. When they're on, it doesn't make much difference what you do -- switch, don't switch, double, show hard, whatever, they're going to make ridiculous shots.

What I saw, however, was the Thunder switching at the mere hint of a screen, when the primary defender on Klay or Curry could have easily stayed with his man. OKC runs screens for Westbrook and Durant, but why is it that you saw Klay or Iguodala still on their guy at the end of the possession far more than you saw Roberson, Westbrook, or Waiters still on Klay or Curry. Sometimes that was justified because the Warriors screen really well, but by the end of the series, the Thunder had quit even attempting to fight through screens.

I fault Westbrook in particular. He didn't play up on his man, ducked under screens, and forced the big guy to switch, which is exactly what Golden State wanted. Sometimes he initiated the switch when the screen was still five feet away. He scoffed at the notion that Curry was a good defender, but Curry is better than him. Just once I'd like to see Westbrook turn on the jets and run back on D at warp speed the way he does when he has the ball.

I thought Durant had an excellent series defensively. He was disruptive, he gave complete effort, and his length and awareness was a real problem for Golden State. When Curry and Thompson were in supershooter mode in those last three games, they could make threes on anyone, but Durant was as tough a cover as anyone out there.

too bad Durant couldn't score down the stretch, he showed no ability to carry his team when they had 3 chances and were all tight winnable games.

[cowens/oldschool]

WOW Finals MVP Paul Pierce is on the pre game!!! gotta love it, thats respect !!

[bobheckler]

Wow. Absolutely amazing ibterior defense by GSW early 2ns. Stopped Tristan Thompson cold from point blank.

[bobheckler]

Sorry about the typos. Combination of no glasses and drinking Moscow Mules @ Ozumas.

[bobheckler]

What a game by Livingston. He is gutting Cleveland like a fish.

[cowens/oldschool]

What a game by Livingston.  He is gutting Cleveland like a fish.

great back ups at point with Livingston and Barbosa and Igoudala and Ezeli are elite bench players too. Big difference in Adams and Ibaka in the paint defensively than Love and Thompson.

[bobheckler]

What a game by Livingston.  He is gutting Cleveland like a fish.

great back ups at point with Livingston and Barbosa and Igoudala and Ezeli are elite bench players too. Big difference in Adams and Ibaka in the paint defensively than Love and Thompson.

I thought Kevin Love had a good game.  17 points and 13 boards and a lot of hard work too.  I didn't think his defense was that bad at all last night.

The problem Love has is that the Cleveland offense runs through Irving and LeBron and they are both drive-and-kickers.  That means their teammates, including Smith and Shumpert as well, hang out around the perimeter and wait for the kick-out pass.  There aren't as many picks being set for pnrs with the idea being that the picker will roll, they are pnrs with the idea that Irving or LBJ will drive off the pick.  Thompson crashes the boards like nobody else but that's just all him, it's not part of a set play.  And the idea of Kevin Love setting up in the low blocks and have Irving and LeBron move without the ball or wait out on top for him to kick out to them on a double team is, for them, emotionally unsatisfying.  They both want the ball and they take turns having the ball but both of them play 2nd fiddle to someone else?  It is clear to me that they, and Tyronne Lue, consider Kevin Love to be the least of their "big 3" and, as a result, they are misusing him.  Love's fg% from 2 and 3 are down since coming to Cleveland as well as his rebounding/minute numbers, especially his offensive rebounding rate.  It's hard to grab offensive rebounds when you're being told to "go stand in the corner and wait for LeBron or Irving to pass it to you".  There is no way, if Love was on the Celtics, that Brad would use him like that.  I'm not calling for him to be traded to us, although we know he triggers Danny's drool reflex, I'm just saying a lot of his effectiveness is based upon how he fits into their system and I don't think their system is a good one for him.  Ray Allen took fewer fgas as a Celtic than he did when he was with Milwaukee and Seattle but his 2pt and 3p fg% went up, because he was being used well.  Kevin Love is taking fewer fgas in Cleveland, understandably, AND his fg% has gone down too.  He isn't old, he isn't injured, he isn't playing lackadaisically, he's just being misused.

LeBron was losing his mind because Barnes and Green and Iggy were taking turns strangling him.  As the game moves to the wings and away from pounding the rock in from point blank, the importance for high quality wing defenders grows and GSW has more than most.

Mozgov played 2 minutes.  After averaging 25mpg last year with Cleveland, and having a good playoff run too, he went down to 17 1/2 mpg this year and is only averaging 5.9mpg in the playoffs so far.  5.9.  That's not even rotation minutes, not even close.  That's human victory cigar minutes.

The Cav starters played 183 minutes, with every one of them playing a minimum of 36.  183 minutes, 76% of all available.  They had a nice rest heading into last night, but will that take a toll by game 6 or 7?

On the other hand, Curry and Iggy played 36, Green played 40 but Klay Thompson only played 24.  The Warrior "center corp" of Bogut, Ezeli, Speights and Varajao played a total of 30 minutes.  240 total minutes, so 30 minutes is 1/8 of the total for a position that is penciled in for 1/5.  Small ball.  Bogut played 15, Ezeli played 10.  I thought Ezeli played an absolutely awful game last night.

Warrior starters played a total of 145 minutes, out of 240, 60%.  This is far closer to normal.



bob


.

[cowens/oldschool]

There are times this year and last night Cavs have given Love chances to get it going in the post and hes underwhelming, he blows alot of bunnies too when he gets the chance in the block.

[dbrown4]

Interesting Game 1. As much as I'd like to believe GSW can/will win Game 2, it's not going to happen. Not in the Finals. I hope they have learned about the value of home court and put CLE in a huge hole but I just don't see it happening.

I know something for sure. Curry and Thompson won't be no-showing the rest of the series. Neither with JR Smith be absent. It was good to see that GSW can kill you with their bench if necessary. CLE is going to be waiting a long time before their bench will win a game for them. It really looked like Lue didn't even prepare CLE for GSW's bench by the fact that CLE didn't know where any of their spots on the floor were.

Lue will be cost them the series. (Lack of prep and ineptitude vs. Kerr) Followed by Love. (CLE's strange use of him) Followed by bench. (Just won Game 1)

And guess what?! The Splash Brothers haven't even shown up yet!!

GSW in 5.

db

[dbrown4]

The more I thought about it this weekend with GSW winning Game 1, the more troubled I became about Game 2 should CLE take it, which is pretty much expected in Finals series. If you have the best two teams, more than likely, going up 2-0 is not likely to happen.

With that in mind, the more this series looks and feels like last years, the more it will favor CLE in the end. At least in the first few games. If CLE wins tonight, given they know they were short Love and Kyrie, they have to start believing they've got this series, other things equal. Yes GSW broke the single season record, but their improvement was incremental in that they were a great team that got better. Up against a glass ceiling, perhaps. CLE on the other hand had no Love or Irving. They have the best chance to improve from last year's run and they had GSW down 2-1 before their wheels came off. Similar to OKC.

It would be best in my humble opinion that GSW go up 2-0 and erase any hope from CLE's mind about the outcome being any different from last year. Just a feel. Absolutely no evidence!

Go Warriors!! Please Win Game 2 tonight!! Don't tease us!! Don't give ANY hope to CLE!!

db

[cowens/oldschool]

This series is OVER!!!

Too bad Love got elbowed in the back of the head, out now with a concussion, could that play effect the series...??? Shit yeah.

If I'm in charge of this league, I don't care if it is intentional or not, if you kick someone in the balls or smack him in the groin or elbow or strike to head, flagrant 2 and your out of that game and the next one. Athletes are too fast and big, game too physical, cheap shots will not be tolerated.

[worcester]

Kevin shoulda signed with the Celts. Brad would have been his ticket to many All Star games. Now he's just a footnote in the history of a losing team. Lue and LeBron are misusing him terribly, but that is on Kevin. He made his bed. Now he has to sleep in it.

[cowens/oldschool]

Kevin shoulda signed with the Celts. Brad would have been his ticket to many All Star games. Now he's just a footnote in the history of a losing team. Lue and LeBron are misusing him terribly, but that is on Kevin. He made his bed. Now he has to sleep in it.

I'm glad hes not here, do you think hes worth a max contract?

[worcester]

Max? No way. But he would have done very well here.

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