Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[steve3344]

Sam - It's noted that Ron Artest has played 22,173 rough minutes in his career, but it should also be noted that KG has played 40,500 very hard minutes in HIS 15 year career. That's scary. Hope we're not seeing a non-stop pattern of injuries beginning for him, being that he turns 34 during this year's playoffs. Without KG, we have no chance of winning another title without serious re-tooling.

[gyso]

Mrkleen,

Please be reasonable. Any team with a combination of veterans and injuries should be broken up—and the sooner the better.

Kobe has a bad finger and a bad back. Pau Gasol has played in only 58% of the Lakers' games this season. Everyone knows that Derek Fisher has made application to an assisted living facility. Ron Artest is age 30, has endured a whopping 22,000+ minutes over 12 seasons of very rough play, and has already missed a number of games this season due to injury. I heard Odom swallowed a lollipop stick sideways last night.

I therefore nominate the Lakers as the most appropriate team to be broken up first, and I'd suggest they try to find a way to do so before this season's playoffs in order to avoid the rush of other contenders (including the Celtics) to do the same as soon as they encounter the slightest hint of adversity.

Moreover, I feel the Celtics should renounce the titles won in 1967-68 and 1968-69 because they were an old, beaten-up team that had no right to win. Henry Finkel, the rebuilder and savior, should have been brought on board much sooner than he was. Since Bill Walton was living on borrowed time in 1985-86, every good thing he did for that championship team should be stricken from the records, and THAT
championship should be renounced too.

Now that I think of it, Bob Cousy was getting old when he retired. He fell down for no apparent reason in his final playoff game. He should
have been euthanized on the spot, and all claim to that 1963 title should be transferred to the Lakers.

I'm also in favor of instituting a ceiling of age 28 in the NBA. Any player who will turn 29 during a given season should not be allowed to play that season for reasons of senior liability and, in fact, should be taken out and shot in the back pasture (otherwise known as the ass).

Woe is me. Woe is me. Woe is me. Here I've picked this dismal season in which to start a Boston Celtics message board. I had been led to
believe they actually had strength in depth, but now I discover it was all a house of cards. Apparently their injured players will not even be
allowed to recuperate by virtue of a proclamation by Old Man Stern—part of a conspiracy against the Celtics that also has all the NBA zebras slipping hemlock into the Celtics' Gatorade while everyone's distracted by some guy named Gino who's really Andrew Toney (aka "The Boston Strangler" or "McDastardly") in disguise.

In a related announcement, there will be a Celtics Board Party next April 1. It will be held in Jonestown, Guyana. It would be
helpful if attendees would express their preferred Kool-aid flavors in advance.

Me? Oh, I'm planning to root root root for the Celtics against the Nets. For some of us older, misinformed people, I guess old habits die hard.

Sam

Sam,

Instead of shooting them all in the "back pasture", lets save the old Celtics and send them to the cyrogenetics company I just read about. They have invented a new product called Soylent Green. It is supposed to be a food substitute, DNA based for better digestion, or something like that. They can use the old, yet superior genetic makeup of the Celtics that are put out to pasture to improve the composition of the new product.

Soylent Green, what are you having for supper tonight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

gyso

[RosalieTCeltics]

Thanks Sam, I'm with you!

[Sam]

Steve, it was a joke. I wasn't doing a statistical analysis.

[KellyGreen17]

Haha, nice GYSO... SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OUT OF PEOPLE! I can't view the video you posted, but I hope it includes that line.

[Sam]

The Celtics defeated the Nets 71-35 last night. The two teams then played 24 minutes of garbage time, as Walker and Giddens had an
opportunity to stretch their legs and get their obligatory jams against half-hearted defense (and, in Giddens' case, grab 7 rebounds in 16
minutes). Each had six points (Walkers's were garnered in six minutes), and they displayed good spirit and aggressiveness. But the circumstances in which they played were hardly representative of challenging NBA combat. For example, whereas the Celtics had 20 assists in the first half, that number dipped to 10 in the second half, which became a free-lancing rodeo won by the Nets, 52-40.

Speaking of minutes, the Celtics starters were Perk, Pierce, Scal, Ray and Rondo, and none of them played as many as 30 minutes, so they'll hopefully be in good shape for tonight's game with the Bulls. Doc said yesterday that there was an outside chance Sheed might also play tonight, although my bet is they'll keep him out with another three days of rest ahead.

The Celtics placed seven in double figures, as the only meaningful portions of this game were almost sickening in the ease with which the
Bostonians dominated. Even given the playground atmosphere of the second half, in which the Celts were outscored by 12, the Celtics' stats for the entire game were overwhelming:

53%-38% in field goal percentage
55-26 in points in the paint (despite a few nice plays by Lopez)
70%-50% in assists as a percentage of made field goals
14-9 in offensive rebounds
33-27 in defensive rebounds

The scoring was led by Paul Pierce, with 24 points (and six rebounds) in his 28 minutes. About the only negatives for the Celtics were the fact that Pierce got kicked in the same knee twice (he stayed in the game) and Eddie couldn't hit anything (1 for 9). Scal once again played well when it counted: 11 points, two three-pointers, four rebounds, four assists, and a steal.

For those who didn't follow the game on Comcast, there was one light moment, when Mike Gorman mentioned that the Knicks are blaming a haunted hotel for making them lose in Oklahoma City. Apparently Eddie Curry saw a ghost.

Sam

[gyso]

Haha, nice GYSO... SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OUT OF PEOPLE! I can't view the video you posted, but I hope it includes that line.

KellyGreen,

Yeah, it did. Sam's forced early retirement scheme plus the Celtics (green) made the connection in my head.

SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OUT OF CELTICS!

gyso

[KellyGreen17]

Well I appreciated it! It's not every day you hear a reference to that movie. What was the year, 2020? We got 10 years to start freezing the C's greats!

[mrkleen09]

Tommy also had a hilarious quote when Courtney Lee was called for a travel for cupping the ball.

He said something to the effect that if he was “carrying a sack of mail, he would have gotten a bonus” – Mike just died laughing.

[steve3344]

Notice that Scal led the team with 11 shots attempted. There's an odd one for ya.

Wonder how many times that's gonna happen this season?

[beat]

steve

How many more times do we play the nets?

there is your answer.

beat

[Sam]

Steve,

Scal must have neared a career high for minutes played. When the game became an early rout and he hit his first two three-pointers, you could tell he was just have a great time out there. Jumping around. Dancing. I'm surprised he didn't shoot until his arm fell off.

I think that, in a rare game like that, a lot of them including the kids) feel like I used to when the snow finally melted and we could once again throw soggy, 100-pound baseballs around until our hands nearly broke—but we didn't care.

Sam

[Sam]

I'm posting this to provide a thread to discuss last night's game. I was out for much of the game and saw just the last quarter,
but I taped it (the old VHS route). At least I thought I was taping it, but I have a nice tape of the Cavs game instead. So I'll rely
mainly on what the post-game media accounts said plus the stats plus the little I saw.

Actually, it seems pretty straightforward. The Celtics got outplayed by a really good game plan and a more energetic opponents. (This was
something like the Celts' sixth game in nine days.)

Deng was fantastic at both ends. There's no game plan for that. But shutting down Boston's two primary remaining offensive weapons was a lot easier with Deng available to give Pierce fits and limit him to 6 for 18 FG shooting. Of course, Deng wasn't up on Paul when he shot
only six for ten from the line. And, although I'm not certain about the defensive matchup, but there must have been a good reason why Ray shot only four for ten, with no threes. Maybe someone can fill me in on Ray's game.

The Bulls got off to a great start, leading 29-18 after one period. I'd like to hear more about the dynamics of that. But the Celtics hung
around, reducing the margin to a potentially manageable eight points at halftime. Thereafter, it seemed that Deng and company had answers whenever the Celtics threatened—possibly as close to a wire-to-wire win as Chicago has experienced all season long.

When a team is running on fumes (as the Celtics undoubtedly were on yet another back-to-back), some of the problems can be:

• Playing starters 40+ minutes (40 for Pierce, 41 for Rondo, along with an uncharacteristic 37 for Perk)

• Sputtering teamwork (only 17 assists, comprising only 53% of made field goals)

• Failure to capitalize on opportunities: 13 missed free throws; shooting a lot of contested shots, of which 10 were blocked.

• Allowing opponents opportunities: 84 FGA by Chicago; 13 missed threes by the Celts out of 17 attempts, which had to give the Bulls some long rebounds and transition opportunities

Chicago thrives, probably more than any other NBA team, on the midrange game. Thirty-six of their 38 field goals were scored from mid-range (12) or in the paint (24). From my admittedly limited perspective on the game, they played with energy, yet under control and within a game plan predicated up on stopping the Celtics' two big guns. While the Celtics didn't have an inordinate number of turnovers (15), the fact that 11 of them were committed by Pierce (six) and Rondo (five) seems a pretty good indicator of how well the Bulls clogged up the Celtics' attack.

One of my final comments is actually a question. Does anyone know the whereabouts of the BDC poster formerly known as "Notrade?" I'd like to have a lively little conversation with him about Joakim Noah.

Hey, it could have been worse. The Celts could have been playing the Jazz (without two of the Jazz' best players for much of the game) and given away a six point lead with half a minute left to lose at the buzzer.

Here's looking forward to the next few days of rest and recovery.

Sam

[KellyGreen17]

Sam you picked a good game to miss! The C's played like the tired team that they are. There was a lot of standing around on offense and very little ball movement. The Bulls did play good D, but I think the C's lack of effort made them look better than they are. We definitely missed the length of KG and Sheed. Pierce was one of the few players that was actually playing with some effort, but unfortunately that resulted in a lot of ISO ball for him since none of the other Celts were moving. The Bulls doubled Perk a lot, and the guards didn't help him out by moving into a position that Perk could get the ball to them.

I'm not really sure what was up with Ray. He was almost invisible out there, both offensively and defensively. He wasn't remarkably good or bad, just sort of neutral...that seemed to be the attitude of the whole team.

They struggled to put together mulitple defensive stops. They left the Bulls with wide open jumpers. When we got a little momentum going towards the end of the game, we still came up short. All that said, and the C's probably could have gotten the W if they had hit their free throws throughout the game.

Oh well, on to the next!

[mrkleen09]

Ugly game. Moving on.....

[sinus007]

Hi,
I don't know if you can attribute it to a tired team, but one thing I noticed: Rondo wasn't getting any help on defense. Bulls were running the same play over and over: screen RR and Rose getting by and giving a good pass or shooting himself. I suspect none of our bigs couldn't emulate KG or Sheed to prevent this play. I hope Doc took notice of that.
But look on the bright side: Celtics were fighting and no naps in the 3rd.

AK

PS Sam, Thanks for the summary. Also, smart economical move: from VHS straight to SSD

[LACELTFAN]

.....One bright spot. Everybody on this side of the aisle has 11 losses.....no one has fewer....

[Sam]

Thanks guys for filling in gaps. There doesn't seem to much disagreement on this one. Perhaps we're all becoming such experts in dealing with a shorthanded situation that all that's left is subtle refinements such as the distinction between fatigue and lack of energy. (Either way, it ain't good.)

Kelly, I'm interested that you mentioned double-teaming Perk. If one thinks back a couple of years, one would have to say, "Why bother?" But they've certainly been doing it lately because it accomplishes two purposes: (1) reducing a scoring threat and (2) attacking a point of vulnerability because Perk's strengths do not include quickly finding the open man while protecting the ball.

I hope opponents get complacent about using that strategy when playing the Celtics because that avenue will no longer be available with the return of KG.

Sam

[dboss]

This was a game the Celtics could have and should have won.

But Boston could never put together consecutive defensive stops and offensive trips down the court.

You could see from the start that Boston had little energy. Would have like to see House play more.

Would also have like to see Doc go a bit deeper into his bench and give JR and Walker some run because it was cvlaer that the Bulls were mre athletic.

It would be nice if doc just said " you know what, I'm going to try somehting different> and just give the kids some minutes. At the very least you would have gotten some energy from them. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen really look old out there.

dboss

[bigpygme]

This was a game the Celtics could have and should have won.

But Boston could never put together consecutive defensive stops and offensive trips down the court.

You could see from the start that Boston had little energy. Would have like to see House play more.

Would also have like to see Doc go a bit deeper into his bench and give JR and Walker some run because it was cvlaer that the Bulls were mre athletic.

It would be nice if doc just said " you know what, I'm going to try somehting different> and just give the kids some minutes. At the very least you would have gotten some energy from them. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen really look old out there.

dboss

i am, overall, supportive of Doc - the mutual respect with the players means they do listen to the coach, and there's a lot of teams where that doesn't appear to be so. so that's to the good.

but i have some bones i can't help but pick with Doc's player rotation strategies, and you just hit all my buttons with your concise observations. and about House, too - House was throwing some in last night. and Doc pulled him to get some more minutes for Scal (who wasn't, at least in the 2nd half).

Doc said in one of those TV interviews that he was looking for energy, and was asked where he was going to find it. he said something like "we'll just keep looking for it until we do" -- but he didn't keep looking, of course. he only tried the usual suspects. he seems to see only as far as 4 or 5 guys sitting there on the bench with him. just near-sighted -- only sees the guys sitting nearest to him. needs spectacles, or Lasik, or SOMEthing !

Michael

[Sam]

Frankly, I'm tired of analyzing individual games that are pretty much carbon copies of one another—especially when I feel the game details are not as important as more pervasive factors. So today I'm taking the liberty of ignoring the details of the Mavs game and focusing instead on the broader fact that the Celtics appear to be in a funk for very logical reasons. And, yes, I'm going to use the "injury" word, but not in the simplistic "Oh gee, they miss KG and Daniels" context. Consider the following:

On December 21, 2009, the Celtics were sailing along with a 21-5 record. Despite being far from full strength (missing Daniels and Glen Davis), they were making progress in leaving their respective roles and were gradually gaining a collective sense of timing and cohesion. On December 22, KG became unavailable, and they've gone 6-7 since; but that's NOT my main point.

KG didn't STAY unavailable. He was back on December 25, then he was out again on December 30. Then Rondo was out and Tony in on Jaunary 2. Then Rondo was back on January 6. Then Wallace was out and Scal in on January 11. Then Wallace was back on January 18. In seven of the 13 games played since KG first went out, the Celtics have not played with the same starting lineup they had used in the previous game. As I've posted elsewhere, sometimes the return of an injured player (especially if he's playing tentatively) can be as much of a strain on chemistry as the loss of an injured player. The important thing is CONTINUITY. And CONTINUITY IS WHAT THE STARTERS HAVE LACKED in this stretch. And, when the starters have lacked continuity, the bench has almost automatically lacked continuity because of being raided for replacement starters. Moreover, I haven't even alluded to the number of times guys have played when they were subpar; and sometimes a subpar player, if relied upon to perform as usual, can be more of a hindrance than a missing player.

Yes, there has been some fatigue involved—considerable fatigue during some periods. But, for a team that relies on chemistry as much as this one, they've now gone through virtually a month of rotational discontinuity. That influences not only game performances but also their ability to capitalize on the already infrequent practices that now had to deal more with how to survive than how to hone the chemistry. Many times when this team appears tired, or a step slow, it's more a matter of lack of synergy. They're struggling to learn how to play well together, and they really can't make significant progress on that front with virtually no sense of continuity. And, yes, they're not immune to becoming disillusioned or dispirited at various junctures, under the circumstances. But that's the effect, rather than the cause of the situation.

As I've explained elsewhere, the halftime fades, while sometimes partly due to fatigue, are probably more attributable to adjustments made by opponents. During the early going in a game, the Celtics have the capacity to follow the best game plan Doc can fashion to adapt to the roster deficiencies—and maybe surprise opponents somewhat in the process. Then, by halftime, opponents have spotted Celtics vulnerabilities, have made appropriate adjustments, and the Celtics have not possessed sufficient weapons to counter the adjustments as a cohesive team. One tiny example is the tendency to double Perk in the second half after he has had a good offensive first half. Teams wouldn't be able to do that with KG in the game. Another tiny example is the fact that opponents are more likely to go to the hoop in the second half because they adjust to the fact that the Celtics don't have the kind of answer that KG provides. If the Celtics were a cohesive group on defense, they probably could mount a reasonable response; but the cohesiveness in the face of discontinuity has been impossible to develop.

I understand the widespread gnashing of teeth that is a natural human response to a difficult stretch for one's beloved team. But it's important to dig beneath the superficial indications and recognize what's really going on. These are not tin soldiers who are shuttled back and forth into the lineup with no adverse effect from the disruptions. Whenever there's a lineup change (whether a subtraction OR an addition), a chemistry adjustment is required, and that doesn't happen overnight. And the Celtics have been required to make such adjustments on the average of every second game. And cries for trades are really pleas for more tin soldiers, while the interruption caused by new arrivals could potentially cause more problems than they'd solve.

This team needs a healthy dose of continuity more than any other single factor. Their talents, their individual strengths, their professionalism, their versatility, their experience, their grace under pressure all need an opportunity to coalesce. It hasn't happened yet this year; and, in fact things have been going in the wrong direction for the past month. One possible response is hand-wringing. Another is to have patience and to maintain confidence that the law of averages will present us with a second half of the season that will put this team in much more of a position to succeed through continuity.

Go Celtics!

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

Sam great post,overall have to agree,thought we should have played SW more last nite and would like to see more of Walker,whatever you saw and liked about Giddens,I still haven't seen it even if it is only garbage moments.

[LACELTFAN]

Sam,
I didn't get to see the game but I think that it's obvious that this team isn't playing nearly to potential. There is no guarantee that they'll ever play close to potential again this year but my guess, based on some experience watching, is that they will...If it happens during the playoffs they will go quite far......These maybe head scratching times but they are still great times to watch the C's go for #18. LACELTFAN

[bigpygme]

thanks, Sam ... i was REALLY looking forward to your point of view after this one !
Synergy, continuity, coalescence ... great themes, and as you point out, all are needed. And all TAKE TIME to develop -- it's an ongoing process that can't even begin until AFTER the players are in place for a while, which of course we haven't seen yet.

but it sure is a drag watching the L's mount up like this

In the Globe today, there was focus on what happened in the Mav's game in particular, as opposed to your 'Big Picture' view in your lead ... "The self-destruction began in the third quarter as Rasheed Wallace got into foul trouble, leaving the Celtics virtually defenseless against Dirk Nowitzki (37 points). Then, after Wallace returned, the Celtics lost direction offensively.
They concluded this contest like a team struggling with its identity and desperately awaiting the return of Kevin Garnett."

"Struggling with its identity" is another way of saying the same thing as your main point (to me), struggling to develop cohesion and continuity and trust in the face of instability and uncertainty of who's even going to start the game. a tough way to play ...

At least these injuries aren't in April, May, June ... while unwelcome, there are worse times for them to have popped up. perhaps i can take some solace in that.

Michael in Denver

[Sam]

Cow,

I'm not sure what I might have said about Giddens, although at one time I had thought he might be paired with Hudson to create a little disruptive jolt occasionally—maybe a "poor man's" version of the old "Jones Boys" concept. Otherwise, I've sort of looked at him and Walker as long-term projects—and CERTAINLY not an answer to better synergy at this time.

I would be interested in how Williams apparently wound up sliding so far down on Doc's depth chart, although lately his inability to hold onto the ball has been a concern to me.

Sam

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