Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[Sam]

Bob,

I couldn't agree more on all counts.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

Was a solid game….if not boring at times. Good finish for sure, with the Celtics playing tough down the stretch.

If Rondo ever becomes guy that plays hard all game long, he will totally dominate in this league. He killed Foye with quickness, and destroyed Boykins with size and athletic ability. If he were still pushing the ball with 5 minutes left in the game, it would make the Celtics a deadly team. Not sure if he gets tired, his teammates get tired, or Doc has then slow it down and play more iso down the stretch – but I really think they Celtics could run most teams off the court if he kept pushing tempo.

All in all a much needed bounce back game. Hopefully Pierce isn’t badly hurt and Daniels comes back soon.

[Sam]

Mrkleen,

I remarked, in the game-on thread, what a sleepy game it was in the first half.

Agree about pushing the ball. And I don't begin to buy any theory that the slowdown occurs because of fatigue. Because they lapse into exactly the same mode when they have the ball at the end of every quarter.

If I had just one question to ask Doc, it would be why that element is missing toward the end of games. (And, at the end of quarters, for my money.) In either case, walking it up and pounding it into the court seems an invitation to disaster in my book.

It makes the eventual Celtics move more predictable. The defense gets better entrenched with every waning second and just hangs around the obvious passing lanes. The fact that most of the Celtics are just standing around automatically strips them of passing opportunities that movement can open up. And at least one of the statues may be doing it in the lane (Perk?) or making it so easy for his defensive counterpart that he winds up committing some violation like a moving screen (Perk?). Moreover, waiting until there are five seconds to go completely denies them a second option if the first option all-too-predictably doesn't work out. And, in addition, if the Celtics should get an offensive rebound, time runs out before they have an opportunity for a putback. (If the opponents rebound, at least they have to travel the length of the court before trying to score.)

Slowdown in crunch times would be my number 1, 2, 3 and 4 gripe with the way the Celtics play.

Sam

[bigpygme]

Mrkleen,
Agree about pushing the ball. And I don't begin to buy any theory that the slowdown occurs because of fatigue. Because they lapse into exactly the same mode when they have the ball at the end of every quarter.

If I had just one question to ask Doc, it would be why that element is missing toward the end of games. (And, at the end of quarters, for my money.) In either case, walking it up and pounding it into the court seems an invitation to disaster in my book.

Slowdown in crunch times would be my number 1, 2, 3 and 4 gripe with the way the Celtics play.

Sam

that one does come back to Doc, doesn't it? that, and generally integrating the team as a whole by different substitution patterns than those he has been opting for, are the two key elements i see needing to be addressed that Doc is seeming either not to address, or being slow to address.
he's been forced to play TA more, and to good benefit recently, but IMO Doc has done little to improve the chemistry and cohesiveness of the team by a more thoughtful substitution pattern during game play.

Daniels is going to work out fine, but he is a ROLE player, not "the answer" to the teams late game swoons and ocassional malaise.

Michael

[Sam]

Bigpygme,

There is no single answer. But the reintegration of a role player on whom they depended at the outset of the season can set off a chain reaction that affects other elements of the team. In the case of Daniels, for instance, it could have great impact on the minutes of Ray and Paul and the roles of Tony and Eddie. So Daniel's performance, itself, doesn't have to be THE answer since it may have potentially much broader impact.

In fact, part of that broader impact will be to allow Doc more flexibility than he has had in addressing chemistry and cohesiveness issues. I find it very difficult to evaluate the performance of Doc or the team when they've been operating from a position of weakness. I'm not making excuses, simply stating what I believe to be a fact.

At the beginning of the season, I was saying that the Celtics had so many versatile players, who played multiple positions, that they had the equivalent of something like a 23-member roster. That number has never once come to fruition. And that doesn't even begin to address the discontinuity problem of players coming and going due to injuries. Again, not an excuse, just what I believe to be a statement of the circumstances in which they've been operating.

Sam

[sinus007]

Hi Sam,
Thanks for the summary.
I agree about about the slowdown at the end of the game. It was obvious in Orl and LA games. Question in that regard is is it Doc or specific players or combination?

AK

[Sam]

Sinus

I have no idea. I'd pay at least $4.95 for the right to ask Doc that question.

Sam

[dboss]

I think you could say that this was a needed win although it came about by playing a bottom feeder.

TA's value to this team increases with each game. It was also a nice to see Rasheed concentrate on his mid range game instead of the long ball.

Too many minutes for Ray ray (38 ...most on the team) House plays only 12 and gert few looks.

Timeto srtring together a series of victories

dboss

[KellyGreen17]

Sinus, regarding the 4th quarter slow down, I think it has a lot to do with Rondo deferring to the veterans (notably Pierce). Maybe it's a lack of confindence by Rondo, or maybe it's Pierce demanding the ball, but I don't think it's the gameplan created by Doc. If it is the gameplan, we have a lot to worry about!

In last nights game, the C's continued to pass the ball and play as a team in the fourth quarter which resulted in what was once a very close game becoming an 11 point lead for the C's. I can't help but notice that Pierce was not playing during this stretch. I love Paul as much as the next person, but I'm not sure we win last night if Paul didn't get injured. Going forward, I hope Pierce will be fine and the C's will recognize that ball movement/team play, and not Pierce-iso, is the way to win games.

[bigpygme]

Bigpygme,

There is no single answer. But the reintegration of a role player on whom they depended at the outset of the season can set off a chain reaction that affects other elements of the team. In the case of Daniels, for instance, it could have great impact on the minutes of Ray and Paul and the roles of Tony and Eddie. So Daniel's performance, itself, doesn't have to be THE answer since it may have potentially much broader impact.

In fact, part of that broader impact will be to allow Doc more flexibility than he has had in addressing chemistry and cohesiveness issues. I find it very difficult to evaluate the performance of Doc or the team when they've been operating from a position of weakness. I'm not making excuses, simply stating what I believe to be a fact.

At the beginning of the season, I was saying that the Celtics had so many versatile players, who played multiple positions, that they had the equivalent of something like a 23-member roster. That number has never once come to fruition. And that doesn't even begin to address the discontinuity problem of players coming and going due to injuries. Again, not an excuse, just what I believe to be a statement of the circumstances in which they've been operating.

Sam

thanks for your comments, Sam, you rinsight is appreciated as always.
again, i wasn't being as clear as i think i am being. my post was intended to respond to what i've been reading a lot of, "Wait til Daniels gets back", usually accompanied by the expectation that then all will be better b/c his return will promptly and automatically fill the gaps we have seen. i don't think it will, either promptly or automatically. it will take time, practice, game play experience and effort on his part and on his teammates part to integrate his very nice skill set into the team's approach to the game. and then there is Doc, who has to juggle it.

not that Quis won't be a most welcome addition to the roster, and he will certainly add to our versatility, to the benefit of PP and Ray and House and others. but too often he is being heralded as some sort of saviour, and i think that puts way too much pressure on his return. take it a little easy on the guy, is all i'm saying - he is who he is, and that is a complementary player who fills some roles very well that we do need filled. my point of view ...

regards,
Michael

[Sam]

Bigpygme,

I completely agree that neither Daniels nor anyone else would be a savior. In some ways, his role would be easier to predict than, say, the role that seems to be emerging for Tony. It'll probably be a role similar to what Quis originally had with this team. And, while I hope he'll contributions will be significant and consistent, it's difficult to believe that they'll be dramatically different (at least statistically). In fact, I'd go so far as to wager that Daniels' impact will be greater on team chemistry than on the stat sheet—sort of like a Scal who is more agile and penetrates a lot.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

The Celtics finally played a consistent game on offense, scoring 24, 24, 26 and 25 in the four periods. They were less consistent on defense, allowing 31 in the second quarter but only 10 in the fourth. The latter goes into my “glimmer” thread, especially because a lot of
the great defense in that quarter was played by bench players—especially Tony (three stars behind that one), Sheed and Glen Davis.

After the Celtics got out to a good start, the starters began letting Washington back into the game; and the bench fared no better in
the second quarter. But that consistent offense (the Celtics shot better than 50% in both halves) refused to let the game get away, and the Celts trailed by one point at halftime.

In truth, the first half was rather sleepy, and perhaps the most noteworthy occurrence was a negative one—an injury on which Paul Pierce
wound up on the floor with his legs tangle with an opponent. The word was that he sustained a foot injury (it looked like the instep).
He came back to play a few minutes but was out of action. for most of the second half.

Enter Tony Allen once again! He scored only 10 points, but he is proving to be the answer to the prayers of those who are concerned about lack of energy on this squad. He was everywhere on defense. He missed a layup or two but was also their best penetrator and finished off one beautiful fast break that started with his own steal. MVP of the contest, hands down, despite another quasi-routine double
double (17 points, 12 assists) by Rondo. Tony also snagged six rebounds, including two offensive, and was credited with three assists. This
guy has built up our hopes again and again. But, IF (a HUGE “if”) he could maintain this type of play, he would be a significant building block for the future. He did have one turnover in his 28 minutes—absolutely a pittance given his frenetic play, but Rondo had six
turnovers in 36 minutes. The turnovers are less egregious when they’re the product of super aggressive play.

I don’t know what kind of rotational gyrations will be required to accomplish this, but I feel Rondo and Tony just have to be given significant minutes together in every game as long as this trend continues. It’s true “Jones Boy” stuff. And I’m hoping Daniels will join them more often than not.

KG played a solid, if unspectacular game, with 19 points and six rebounds in 31 minutes and hit a couple of big jumpers while the score was
see-sawing in the fourth quarter. Sheed played what I thought was one of his steadiest games in 22 minutes. Significantly, he tried
only one threebie. (The entire team was 3 for 8 from the arc—more than enough three-point input for my taste.) Sheed played down low on
offense most of the time, was 4 for 7 from the floor, and hit all six of his freebies. He was also a stalwart on defense, playing much of the fourth quarter while giving Perk a rest.

At one point, Ray was 2-7 from the field, but he finished 6-13 with two three-pointers on his way to 17 points. He’s got a lot going on in his basketball life right now (and probably in his personal life too with the latest round of trade rumors floating around). If there’s an
interesting side plot to every Celtics game, it might be titled “Ray Allen–the Ultimate Profesional.”

Hey, this was the Wiz. They’re not a good team, but they’re the kind of mediocre collection of scorers that has been surprising the Celtics all too often. And there was every reason for the Celts to have a letdown in Washington on a back-to-back, with their captain injured, and after the three previous drainers. They could easily have let this one slide away, but they finished strongly for a change. Yet another glimmer in my book.

Nice win, guys.

Sam

Sam great read,your giving a great account of how Tonys strengths add another dimension to our team and how paired with Rondo can really be a force

[cowens/oldschool]

Was a solid game….if not boring at times. Good finish for sure, with the Celtics playing tough down the stretch.

If Rondo ever becomes guy that plays hard all game long, he will totally dominate in this league. He killed Foye with quickness, and destroyed Boykins with size and athletic ability. If he were still pushing the ball with 5 minutes left in the game, it would make the Celtics a deadly team. Not sure if he gets tired, his teammates get tired, or Doc has then slow it down and play more iso down the stretch – but I really think they Celtics could run most teams off the court if he kept pushing tempo.

All in all a much needed bounce back game. Hopefully Pierce isn’t badly hurt and Daniels comes back soon.

good post and vision,hopefully as KG gets stronger and Pierce is not out too long with all 4 of our wings,Pierce,Ray,Tony and Quis with a dash of Walker....would love to see this team run all game with an attack mentality,with all our pieces would love to see team play this way with Rondo pushing.

[Sam]

Cow, you're talking my language when you say "run all day." And I've been surprised at how many times the Celtics have gathered scored quite a few more fast break points than opponents. They did it against the Lakers, as a matter of fact.

However, aside from Rondo, I'm afraid the nucleus of this team will always tend toward more deliberate play, with uptempo being the exception rather than the rule. One reason why I want to keep Tony with the bench is that I'd like to see the second unit as sort of a "shock squad" to come in and pick up the pace with Tony, Daniels and Rondo at the helm. I like a three-man break better than a two-man break (which would be more the case if Tony joined the starters) because two wings open up so many more options for the PG by spreading the defense.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

Sam
If we have that wing depth why couldn't we run more and do more uptempo?I'm not asking us to morph into Showtime Lakers,but one of my favorite teams to watch was the 91 Celtics that ran and ran till Bird hurt his back....with TA,Quis and Walker would love to see us running and wearing teams out.Maybe Pierce and Ray if not burdoned with too many minutes could also be open to an uptempo approach. cow

[Sam]

Cow,

Now you're almost baiting me (unintentionally) because I'd love to see that. However, I'm not at all seeing Walker as part of the mix this season. Watch him, even in garbage time. He's pretty lost out there except for an ability to wiggle free for his one obligatory jam every game. Even his body language looks frightened.

The last game in which I recall he was inserted in the second quarter, he played something like three minutes, made something like five glaring errors, and the opponent gained something like 13 points on the Celtics. Game out of reach. My post-game thread would identify the game; I can't recall which one it was. But I recall it was purely dreadful.

This team has had enough disruptions. Far more than enough! After all-star time, they'll be on the playoff countdown, with no room to mess around with a fledgling who hasn't shown sufficient basketball instincts to warrant nursing him along—except in garbage time (and there haven't been many of those).

I think Quis, Tony and Rondo could form quite a combination in whatever time Rondo will have with the bench. And I believe it's a good sign that, most of the time, the Celtics are already out-fast-breaking their opponents.

Sam

[bigpygme]

Cow,
I think Quis, Tony and Rondo could form quite a combination in whatever time Rondo will have with the bench. And I believe it's a good sign that, most of the time, the Celtics are already out-fast-breaking their opponents.

Sam

another "glimmer" tucked away - your o ptimism is contagious, and your search for glimmers makes it clear that there is yet reason to believe. thank you.

Michael in Denver
PS - i'd love to see up tempo play very much too ... but doesn't Doc need to make the call for it, instead of calling the iso-plays we're all grown so tired of seeing at the end of quarters, especially the 4th ?

[Sam]

Bigpygme,

That's the question I'd like to ask Doc. Who's in charge of setting the game-ending pace out there?

It seems pretty obvious that Doc sets the quarter-ending strategies. I'd love to sit with Cousy, Sam, Russ, Heinie and Havlicek and review a few of those suckers. I'd be certain to have a large supply of barf bags on hand.

It's ironic because Doc has the reputation of being one of the league's best at calling plays out of timeouts. There's a lot of creativity involved in those decisions. Yet, at the end of quarters (and, all too often, at the end of games), it's the same old same old.

Sam

[Berlin-T]

Sam , gyso, NYCelt and anyone else I may have overlooked,

Many thanks for the welcoming words and thoughts.

Sam, although I'd like to take credit for the "cheesecake" I believe it was Hooter who started it. At least he was the first to call it out on a winning game night. I did however come up with the German equivalent of cheese cake, i.e "Kaesekuchen" pronounced something like "cay-sa-coò-hen" I hope to be able to watch this coming Sunday's game and will post if I can think of anything sensible to say.

Take care guys,

Berlin-T

[Sam]

Berlin,

We look forward to hearing from you. I'm running out for some Kaesekuchen now. Wasn't Bobc a big fan of that concept too?

Sam

[gyso]

Sam,

It seems to me that when the shot clock is turned off, so is Doc's brain.

Someone said this recently and I agree: It would be better for the Celtics to just run a play and try to score off the normal flow of the offense than to just pound the ball until it's under 5 seconds to go and then fail.

So what if the other team gets the ball back with 5-6-7 ticks on the clock. The Celtics should just play their game and let the other team play this failed strategy. Every advantage counts!!!

Here is something I may start to keep track of in addition to the First to 100 results; I will call it end of quarter play results, which could include the time when the play begins, the time when it ended, the type of shot created, if it resulted in a score, if it included an assist and who took the shot. That's pretty much the kitchen sink, is there anything else that would be easy to keep track of? I could include the results in the post-game thread and post trends every 10 games or so.

How does that sound?

gyso

[Sam]

gyso,

We should have been keeping track of that all year long. It would be worth including in a letter to Doc. And I'd report it ever five games or so because the sample size would probably increase by eight to 10 every five games. One other thing that might be interesting (mainly as a reference and not necessarily to work into the periodic reports) would be the +/- margin of the score at the time. If you can do all that, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din.

Thanks,

Sam

[gyso]

Sam,

I already have a chart made for this. I include a column for both teams. The play must start after the shot clock has been turned off.

I'll give it a whirl tonight. I record and watch the game on DVR, so it will take a little end of quarter review session to capture the results.

gyso

[Sam]

gyso,

It's an ambitious endeavor; but, if anyone can do it, you can. Thanks again, and good luck.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

It seems to me that when the shot clock is turned off, so is Doc's brain.

I get your point....but if you want to be technical, Doc is considered one of the BEST coaches in the NBA of diagramming last second plays. He has shown time and time again that he makes great calls in tight situations.

[Sponsored content]