Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[spike]

Sorry, GYSO, but light beer sucks. Give me a Guinness Stout any day!

Important matters aside, it seemed that there was one interesting development in this game: the emergence of Rondo iso ball.

In the third quarter, when the Cs' defense began to tighten up, Rondo called his own number 3 or 4 times in a row and he just cruised in for layups. It was lovely to watch, although he hit the floor hard a couple of times, but it's not team ball and it's not going to work against Orlando or L.A. However, if Doc was watching, he should have been thinking, 'If we sent Rondo driving toward the basket from one wing, and have one of the tall guys follow him in from the high post or from the other wing, that would be some kind of a play'.

It'll never happen, though, because Doc obviously doesn't like motion offenses. He had to copy one from the Knicks, for all that's holy.

According to Nate, they installed that Knicks play in one practice, after only a few run-throughs. There are so many veterans on this team that they can do such things.

Still, with all that experience and know-how, the halfcourt offense is boring and predictable and doesn't make nearly enough use of Rondo's amazing skills. This guy is like Cousy and Bird in that he invents moves on the run that nobody's ever seen before. MikeDfromNP used to say that, even though Doc was a point guard, he doesn't know how to use the point guard to maximum effect. But the Nate play shows that it's not too late to change and put in a play where everybody's in motion.

[Sam]

Spike,

I certainly endorse the need for more motion in the offense. These guys often have to work far too hard for what they get. And maybe more motion would keep other teams from collapsing so readily around the basket and blocking or fouling guys like Perk and Davis on nearly every layup attempt.

It just drives me crazy to see Rondo walking around, pounding the ball, and sizing up the situation while time elapses and the other four guys just stand there preparatory to one of the four making a break for the hoop or setting a pick for a Rondo penetration. It's thoroughly predictable, and even the entry pass becomes a crap shoot because it's so easy for opponents to step into the obvious passing lanes.

If I had access to Doc, my very first question would be why they don't display more motion in their offense.

Sam

[gyso]

Spike,

It was MD that brought light beer into the discussion, not me.

Light beer is like decafinated coffee. I mean, what's the point?

[Jerry Tarkanian]

Spike,

I certainly endorse the need for more motion in the offense. These guys often have to work far too hard for what they get. And maybe more motion would keep other teams from collapsing so readily around the basket and blocking or fouling guys like Perk and Davis on nearly every layup attempt.

It just drives me crazy to see Rondo walking around, pounding the ball, and sizing up the situation while time elapses and the other four guys just stand there preparatory to one of the four making a break for the hoop or setting a pick for a Rondo penetration. It's thoroughly predictable, and even the entry pass becomes a crap shoot because it's so easy for opponents to step into the obvious passing lanes.

If I had access to Doc, my very first question would be why they don't display more motion in their offense.

Sam

Hi Sam,

I agree, and believe the style is a result of his pedigree, having been mentored by Larry Brown, Pat Riley and Mike Fratello. Each, while fine coaches, are not practitioners of motion in offense, and truly Doc played in environments in which stars like 'Nique were featured rather than the art of the game.

Regards,

Tark

[spike]

Sorry, GYSO, I misinterpretated. That's one of the virtues of a board like this: it helps keep you grounded in reality. I just ran across a great line in a book by Lois McMaster Bujold: "We see the world not as it is, but as we are." Or, as Red constantly repeated, less poetically, "It's not what you say, it's what they hear."

Thanks, Sam. Hoping to see some semblance of a running game, you think about how it comes about. The first step is smothering defense, leading to steals, blocked shots, forced bad shots followed by rebounds and quick outlet passes, and the beat goes on. That's what I'll take for now.

With his ability to anticipate and take off in a flash, Rondo is a one-man running game. Other guys like to run: KG and Sheed sometimes, Tony and Quis always, Perk and Baby occasionally. Ray runs in the halfcourt but tends to hang back and watch the back of the ball carrier on the fly. Paul just watches. Maybe he's drinking too much decaffeinated coffee. Nate may be the missing link if he and Rajon ever get on the same page.

[bobheckler]

I wasn't able to watch the game (7:30 EST starts occasionally conflicts with my PST work day, damnit!), so all I can do is garner what I can from this thread and the boxscore.

KG's box score looks very efficient. 8-11 from the field, 6-6 from the line, 3 steals. As stated above, I don't know where KG's shots came from (I probably could find a website somewhere that provides that but...) but either way, it's obvious over the past week that he's feeling much more confident and comfortable physically and his head is in this too. Great for us.

Rondo played almost 41 minutes and Ray played 34 but everybody else's minutes were nice and low.


Hey Pumpsie! Sheed only took one 3 and he hit it! That makes him 3-for-his-last-6.

Davis had 3 offensive rebounds to go with his total of 6. I've made no bones about my love of offensive rebounding. Nice to see Davis so active.

Now, on to show the Wizards what magic really looks like.

bob

[sinus007]

Hi,
Sam, thanks as always. Small correction: Rondo had double-double.
Also, on a subject of the pace/flow of the game: it looked like Celtics tried to stay just ahead of 76's unlike the previous game where they blew by the Bobcats and just coasted to the finish line. I sincerely hope it was (last night) done by design.
Also, on a positive note: KG is back on rebounding.
Thank you very much,
AK

[bigpygme]

great thread and what i needed to hear and know about.

of all that went on, i am most buoyed by KG's gradual resurgence, and this game was more evidence of that. as his confidence continues to grow and and his physical status improves as it has, the team will feed off of his energy and passion and commitment, to their considerable benefit.

as to more motion on offense, i have not been in Doc's fan club for a while now, and see the C's limitations in offensive flow and movement as representative of what he wants and asks them to do. i know there's a bigger picture that i don't get to see, but i can only go by what i DO get to see ...

Michael

[bobheckler]

Doc has said that we are an "inside/outside team" (I could find the quote if I have to), meaning we penetrate or post up and, if we can't finish or are doubled, kick out to a shooter. So the old "Celtic weave" isn't who Doc sees us as being.

If you've got the shooters and the penetrators/post up players, and we have Rondo and Nate for the penetrators and Ray/Pierce/KG and now Finley for the shooters and Perk/Sheed/Shelden/Davis for the posters, then this can work. It won't produce a lot of apparent motion in the offense though.

Motion offenses try to create mismatches through defensive switches or slow rotatations. The type of offense Doc says we have is about trying to buy space for the shooters to have good looks by forcing the defense to collapse on the penetrator or player posting up.

Let's remember too, Doc's playbook is based upon Pat Riley's playbook. It's not a simple playbook, but it is one that has produced results both for Riley and Doc.

My take anyway.

bob

[Sam]

Sinus,

Thanks for catching that. I was thinking one thing and typing another. I've changed it.

Bob,

The problem I see is that the turnovers are not going away. A basic tenet of good passing is that the recipient is ready to come to the ball. Motion can make that almost automatic. Doc also preaches swinging the ball and making the extra pass. I'm not sure how that squares with having no movement toward the ball. It almost seems an invitation to problems, especially since one of the starters has enough difficulty holding onto the ball even if it's delivered perfectly.

Moreover, I don't think Pierce is anything like the slasher he used to be. On occasion he can still do it; but I now see the midrange jumper (including the turnaround) as more of a signature move for him.

Sam

[bobheckler]

Sinus,

Thanks for catching that. I was thinking one thing and typing another. I've changed it.

Bob,

The problem I see is that the turnovers are not going away. A basic tenet of good passing is that the recipient is ready to come to the ball. Motion can make that almost automatic. Doc also preaches swinging the ball and making the extra pass. I'm not sure how that squares with having no movement toward the ball. It almost seems an invitation to problems, especially since one of the starters has enough difficulty holding onto the ball even if it's delivered perfectly.

Moreover, I don't think Pierce is anything like the slasher he used to be. On occasion he can still do it; but I now see the midrange jumper (including the turnaround) as more of a signature move for him.

Sam

Sam,

I agree and the turnovers HAVE NOT AND ARE NOT going away. But if Doc's a inside/outside type of coach, then that's what we'll get from a Doc-coached team.

bob

[worcester]

Sam and Tyrone, I couldn't agree more that we need more motion in the offense and that players need to move toward the pass. It was such a pleasure to watch the 3rd Q against Philly, with Rondo taking it to the hoop. Even more gratifying was to see the team playing healthy, esp. KG and Paul. I now see lots of glimmer on the horizon and hope that Michael Finley's nickname becomes "Finally!" as he puts in one outside shot after another. As a team we've needed a backup to Paul who's also an outside shooter. I don't know what the stats are of Rondo playing alongside Tony, but I doubt they're very good. Tony shoots what, 21% from outside? So when he's on the floor with Rajon they're both competing for slashing space. Finley will help. And the D the Celts have played the last 2 games will really help. Glimmer, glimmer, glimmer!

[jeb]

worcester

Perfect! I hadnt thought of Paul getting more rest as a result of Finley. If he can spot him ten effective minutes a night think what a help that would be.

I think Fin can spot Ray Allen too.

[worcester]

Yep, Jeb, Finley's a 2fer

[jeb]

Wor

Will be interesting to see him play WITH Tony too. Slasher shooter. Plus Finley is BIG. A full 6-7. He is going to be very motivated to show he still has some juice.

I like the signing a lot. I could see Finley having a PJ type impact in limited minutes. Plus we are dealing with a former all star. So muscle memory is there. I think he will pick up the sets and rotations quickly. Cant wait!

[swedeinestonia]

hehe.. I remember watching "Kobe Doin Work" and Kobe said how the Spurs like them corner 3s.

Who doesnt.

Bring it Finley

[jeb]

Swede

The Lakes are strugglin. Lookin a lot like us when we aint clickin. Playin down to the competition. Gasol is in the k-hole right now...they just dont look like they are having any fun.

Kobe the man himself is really struggling to finish in traffic. It will be interesting to see how they do against a long athletic Magic team. They lose three in a row sportscenter might have to start laying people off.

Jeb

[swedeinestonia]

Yeah..

I would not "worry" about the Lakers though, they will right there in the mix when it matter. Just like we want them to be.

Will be nice to see Finley play and see what he brings to the table.

Worst case scenario he will fill the bench and spot up for 5 mins a game, with some luck he still has drive and motivation and can play a serious role.

Good signing either way.

[spike]

bob

I remember hearing Doc say "We're an inside-outside team." That may have been true for the 2008 team. Back then, KG would set up ten feet from the basket and, if they could get him the ball with time left on the shot clock, with his shooting and passing skills, it was almost automatic.

This year, when he hasn't been sidelined, KG has stayed outside most of the time. That may change and we'll all be happy, then, but for most of this season we've seen no one but Stonehands in the low post. Sheed seems to have all kinds of moves down low, but how often does Doc's offense place him there?

It's an inside-outside team without the inside. Doc needs to set things up so Rondo is running around in the paint creating havoc. Is that too much to ask?

spike

[bobheckler]

bob

I remember hearing Doc say "We're an inside-outside team." That may have been true for the 2008 team. Back then, KG would set up ten feet from the basket and, if they could get him the ball with time left on the shot clock, with his shooting and passing skills, it was almost automatic.

This year, when he hasn't been sidelined, KG has stayed outside most of the time. That may change and we'll all be happy, then, but for most of this season we've seen no one but Stonehands in the low post. Sheed seems to have all kinds of moves down low, but how often does Doc's offense place him there?

It's an inside-outside team without the inside. Doc needs to set things up so Rondo is running around in the paint creating havoc. Is that too much to ask?

spike

spike,

I believe the short answer is "Yes, it is".

It's asking a coach and his coaching team to draw up a whole new set of plays (with options off of each one!) with only 22 games or so left in the season. It's asking a team that has drilled non-stop on the old plays to learn all these new plays with minimal opportunity to practice and execute them under increasing playoff pressure. It's begging for a "Chemistry Krakatoa" at the worst possible point in the schedule. When we should be becoming more smooth, have our executions become more seamless and effective, we'd be going back to the drawing board.

Sheed has been playing more inside. I saw a post by Sam where he noted that 62% of Sheed's points recently have been in the paint. That's a change. Rondo does run around in the paint creating havoc, but unless he finishes he either has to kick it out to somebody (ergo the inside/outside) or someone inside. KG doesn't like to live inside. Who does that leave besides "Stonehands" and Sheed? Davis and Williams are not big minutes guys and Davis struggles from inside if there's congestion because of his height handicap versus his defenders. If the defense collapses because "Rondo's running around the paint creating havoc" there'll be MORE tall timber around Davis, not less. Davis' game is more effective, based upon my observations, when there's space in the lane for him throw his weight around instead of just having to go straight up.

I think the fear of Rondo running around the paint creating havoc would create more opportunities for alley-oops to KG, passes to Davis underneath or Tony in the lane on a slash than have him actually go in the lane without a clear path to the basket.

My 2c,
bob

[spike]

"Chemistry Krakatoa?" I'll think twice before asking you a rhetorical question again.

I keep wondering whether, or rather when, Rondo's going to go off like a volcano. Maybe score forty in a game, or a 20-20-20, or 20 in the fourth quarter, something like that. He seems to have the wherewithal to do those things, but his commitment to involving everyone else holds him back. Don't know if that's good or bad.



spike

[bobheckler]

"Chemistry Krakatoa?" I'll think twice before asking you a rhetorical question again.

I keep wondering whether, or rather when, Rondo's going to go off like a volcano. Maybe score forty in a game, or a 20-20-20, or 20 in the fourth quarter, something like that. He seems to have the wherewithal to do those things, but his commitment to involving everyone else holds him back. Don't know if that's good or bad.



spike

spike,

He's got to be able to show he can hit a jumper, even a mid-range one, with reliability. Once he does that they won't be able to back off him and dare him to shoot and then he'll blaze past them for easy ones.

A point guard commiting to involve the rest of the players on the floor isn't a bad thing at all. If that hurts his personal ppg numbers, so be it. Even his assist numbers will go up if he gets that jumper down, though, because his penetrations will go up because his defender won't be able to back off him.

bob

[Sam]

Bob,

I don't believe that having an inside-out foundation means they have to stand around. One opponent recently (I believe it was Cleveland) had a play in which one guy was inside and another outside and they actually switched places during the play, with the "down" guy winding up shooting from the perimeter as the Celtics rotated like a pinwheel.

Moreover, an inside-out pass doesn't have to be the only option because it's the first option. If there's some motion out there, it can open up options two and three IF there's enough time on the clock. That's why I believe clock management should be a major priority, and Doc has mentioned numerous times that he wanted them to push the ball up more than they were doing; so he's on board with that philosophy.

Sam

[bobheckler]

Bob,

I don't believe that having an inside-out foundation means they have to stand around. One opponent recently (I believe it was Cleveland) had a play in which one guy was inside and another outside and they actually switched places during the play, with the "down" guy winding up shooting from the perimeter as the Celtics rotated like a pinwheel.

Moreover, an inside-out pass doesn't have to be the only option because it's the first option. If there's some motion out there, it can open up options two and three IF there's enough time on the clock. That's why I believe clock management should be a major priority, and Doc has mentioned numerous times that he wanted them to push the ball up more than they were doing; so he's on board with that philosophy.

Sam

Sam,

I quite agree. In fact, I've observed that the most effective play for the Celts to run for Pierce against LA is to set him up down low in the blocks (being guarded by Artest, of course) and then have a big, like Perk, drop down and backpick Artest while Pierce pops out. Artest is a very good defender when he's set and against postups but he's not the quickest. When they slowed him down with some movement like I described above, Pierce would get open shots OR he'd get a mismatch with Artest staying with Perk and Bynum or Gasol on Pierce on top.

bob

[spike]

It looks as though the real offensive identity of this team is anarchy. There was this initial offense of sharing the ball among the big three, followed by KG's first big injury and the rise of Rondo in the playoffs. This year, from training camp, it seemed they were deliberately trying to get all five starters involved, even Perk, who had a great start offensively.

Then, injuries mounted and everything became discombobulated. In one revealing quote on the Rondo interview thread, he talks about losing his legs in the fourth quarter when he plays 40+ minutes. If you look at it as experimenting on Doc's part, seeing how far he can push his young colt, you won't go quite so crazy as wondering if Doc really does know what he's doing, regarding minutes, that is. Chaotic minutes, all season so far. This isn't to blame Doc, just to point out the prevailing nature of this anarchy.

At any rate, the offense is a mishmash of team ball and iso ball, erratic offense and unpredictable defense. The fact that all the starters are excellent passers and know how to play team defense makes up for many sins on this team and will carry it far. Nevertheless, I don't think anarchy is a reliable enough strategy to win it all.

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