Ainge Needs An Upgrade

Too much young talent? Really. It must be Danny's fault. he should trade too much young talent for old expensive talent with an expiration date that will come sooner.

Alright I can see you have dug your heels in.

dboss wrote:Since we have not seen a rotations that includes Irving and Hayward it may be a bit premature to make any assumptions on who will be the crunch time guys.

I agree that Leonard if healthy gives us excellent defense and offense but at the same time he takes something away because you have to empty your bank account to get him.  

Like I said, we shouldn't be worried about the money.

The Celtic owners already said they're willing to pay luxury tax.

Just look at GSW.

There was even talk about adding Paul George this summer.

Money should not be an issue if it's about winning championships.

The Lakers paid a steep price for winning those championships in 2009 and 2010.

Even the Mavs paid a lot for salaries for that 2011 championship.

Regarding rotations, Hayward is Stevens' boy.
One of the reasons why Hayward signed with the Celts is because Hayward and Stevens have unfinished business.
They lost in the championship game against Duke back in 2010.
This time around, there's no stopping Brad and Gordon from winning a championship together.
So there's no way that Hayward will not be in there in the last 5 minutes of the 4th.

dboss wrote:Too much young talent?  Really.  It must be Danny's fault.  he should trade too much young talent for old expensive talent with an expiration date that will come sooner.

Alright I can see you have dug your heels in.

Kawhi Leonard is only 26 years old.

How is that trading for old expensive talent?

It's not like I'm asking Ainge to trade for Marc Gasol.

Remember the 2016 Warriors that won 73 games?

Harrison Barnes was the starting SF at that time.

The Warriors were absolutely fine even if they didn't make changes to the roster.
But they still ended up sacrificing Harrison Barnes, who's now a star in Dallas, for Kevin Durant.
Reason is it's an upgrade.

A healthy and willing to play for Boston Kawhi Leonard is an upgrade over Jaylen Brown and Rozier.

Fierce, Kawhi is staying in SA. My prediction. If so, then what should we do this summer,?

Fierce I do not think Leonard is worth the assets that you have suggested should be used to get him.

I do not believe that the Celtics need to concern themselves with getting another wing given what we already have on our roster including two guys in just their 1st and 2nd years.

I would be concerned about Leonard's health situation and history of missing a lot of games

I have seen nothing of consequence that suggest Boston would be a player to go after him except from the idiot Jalen Rose who floated the idea in the first place.

I am more optimistic about how good this team will be next year when we add two allstars to the mix.  I believe we will have enough fire power to compete against every and any team.

My comments about rotation are being taken out of context.  I never suggested that Hayward would not be on the floor during the 4th QTR.  You suggested it would be Smart because of his defense.  I suggested that we do not know because we have not seen the rotation with Irving and Hayward in the mix.  And as we have seen, Brad is very likely to have many different combinations in the game and with more and better rotation players to work with there is no way possible to assume Smart is in their because of defense.  What if your main need with 5 minutes to go is scoring the damn ball?

We have witnessed a rebuild inside of a rebuild but I think things are going to settle down because Danny Ainge has stocked this team with a perfect mix of players that fit the long term timeline for success.

Other moves will be made from time to time but in absence of dangling one of our top picks in the draft this year I think Danny stands pat.  He resigns Smart and Baynes.

The Celtics did not lose the series because Brown and Rozier put up game 7 stinkers.  It lost because game 6 on the road was a game where the aforementioned players dropped 56 but our main veteran guy only had 6.  But just think that if Kyrie and Haywad were there we probably would have swept em'.

mrkleen09 wrote:

LMAO +1

Fierce,

From what I have read, Kawhi is broken. You can believe what you like.  I guess that we will have to wait and see.  Meanwhile, keep banging on the drum if that is to your liking.  I'm done discussing Kawhi.

LeBron's point average doesn't matter.  We would have beaten the Cavs if we are at full strength.  You saying I want to wait for him to retire is a straw man of your making.  Likewise your comment on KD.

I think we can beat GS with a few tweaks.  I think our young guys got great experience in our recent run in the playoffs.  Tatum is ready, Brown and Rozier need a bit more seasoning.  I hope we resign Smart and Baynes.

We are loaded for bear and in the majority of the regular season games, our bench will be playing during the fourth quarter in garbage time.  We'll see a lot of Gino at home.  We can easily find ourselves with home court advantage for the entire playoffs due to the best teams in the west beating each other up all year long.

We have so much talent that the coach will be able to rest our best players more than the other star based teams.  We do have a couple stars, but our bench players can easily handle more playing time and the results will be a well rested team going into the playoffs.  Nobody on our team will have to play "LeBron minutes" for us to be successful next season.

We have all season to figure out our best rotations.  I believe Danny Ainge and the management team will just tweak what we have now and then wait to see what we may actually need just before the trading deadline.  If we can avoid any major injuries, we can compete with any team.

gyso

mrkleen09 wrote:

Ktronic1 wrote:  Thanks for clearing that up. Quick question now. Are we trying to just beat the Cavs or are we trying to win a title? Next year with Gordon and Kyrie back means its almost a lock that we’ll overcome the Cavs. But...are we good enough to beat the Warriors?  Right now i believe the answer is no. If I’m right than we need to get better.

I disagree, and think this team - with a summer full of growth and healing and adding back Theis, Irving and Hayward and a couple of new veteran pieces - are more than good enough to beat Golden State.  But to each his own.

A couple of new veteran pieces is an improvement. So we actually agree. It doesn’t matter if we agree or disagree on who those vet(s) they may be.

gyso wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

gyso wrote:Fierce,

Thinking we only needed a tweak did not apply last season.  We were too short at enough positions that switching off often left us vulnerable on defence.

Thomas and Bradley were replaced with Irving and Brown.  That was an upgrade at both ends of the court.

Hayward for Crowder - huge upgrade.  Even when Hayward went down, we had Tatum to fill the gap.  I have to say that that was found money, no one thought Tatum would be that good.

Morris for Olynyk?  I think that was a loss in quality.  I don't like the prospect of Kelly covering LeBron on defence, but Kelly was way better than Morris on the other end.

Ainge knew that we were going nowhere in the long run with Thomas, Bradley and Crowder.  So what do we have now?


Irving with Rozier and Smart as backups for ball handlers.  That is very exciting to me.

Brown, Hayward and Tatum with Morris, Semi O, Yabusele for wings.  There is some depth there and the young guys will only get better as next season goes on.

Horford and Baynes with Theis for bigs.  We need to add someone else there.


Now we can add a couple more players to fill 15 slots.  Unless we are extremely lucky at pick #27, I say draft and stash a big guy.  I'd look at Okafor at vet min, multiple year contract with guarantees for performance thresholds.  Maybe bring back Larkin.

That is 15 players.  We are no longer at a size disadvantage at most positions, we are actually bigger than most teams and lose nothing when we have to switch.  I would like to see where that gets us up to the trading
deadline.  If we have needs, that would be a good time to fill the holes.

Our future looks bright to me.  There is no need to look to broken former great players who will only provide buyer regret and salary cap woes for years.

gyso

Cow,

"Morris for Olynyk?  I think that was a loss in quality.  I don't like the prospect of Kelly covering LeBron on defence, but Kelly was way better than Morris on the other end."


You're saying that you like Kelly Olynyk, the man you railed against for 4 years, calling him "a rag doll", more than Marcus Morris?
Who are you, and what have you done with my friend?

And Jaylen Brown in his first year as a starter is a better defender than the perennial #1 defensive guard in the

league and First Team All-Defender?  Don't be afraid of those nice men in the white suits, they are there to help you.  The nets are just to keep those evil butterflies away from you...  

bob
.

Bob,



Obviously you've mistaken my post for something Cowens would never have written. (LOL)

IMO, Olynyk gave us better overall than did Morris.  Morris did add more toughness and cost less, but he seemed to disappear in the playoffs.  I always appreciated Olynyk's contributions and I also understood his weaknesses.



IMO, Brown gives us better team defense than Bradley.  It's a height driven opinion, Bradley can get switched on and thus taken advantage of.   Our team defense did not suffer with the loss of Bradley and Crowder, like many expected.

Your other friend,



gyso

LMAO Thanks for writing in my signature style gyso

worcester wrote:Fierce,  Kawhi is staying in SA.  My prediction. If so, then what should we do this summer,?

It that's the case then do nothing.

There's really nothing wrong with the Celts.

But if an opportunity presents itself, Ainge should capitalize.

Kawhi is an upgrade as long as it will only cost the Celtics Brown, Rozier, and picks.

dboss wrote:Fierce I do not think Leonard is worth the assets that you have suggested should be used to get him.

I do not believe that the Celtics need to concern themselves with getting another wing given what we already have on our roster including two guys in just their 1st and 2nd years.

I would be concerned about Leonard's health situation and history of missing a lot of games

I have seen nothing of consequence that suggest Boston would be a player to go after him except from the idiot Jalen Rose who floated the idea in the first place.

I am more optimistic about how good this team will be next year when we add two allstars to the mix.  I believe we will have enough fire power to compete against every and any team.

My comments about rotation are being taken out of context.  I never suggested that Hayward would not be on the floor during the 4th QTR.  You suggested it would be Smart because of his defense.  I suggested that we do not know because we have not seen the rotation with Irving and Hayward in the mix.  And as we have seen, Brad is very likely to have many different combinations in the game and with more and better rotation players to work with there is no way possible to assume Smart is in their because of defense.  What if your main need with 5 minutes to go is scoring the damn ball?

We have witnessed a rebuild inside of a rebuild but I think things are going to settle down because Danny Ainge has stocked this team with a perfect mix of players that fit the long term timeline for success.

Other moves will be made from time to time but in absence of dangling one of our top picks in the draft this year I think Danny stands pat.  He resigns Smart and Baynes.

The Celtics did not lose the series because Brown and Rozier put up game 7 stinkers.  It lost because game 6 on the road was a game where the aforementioned players dropped 56 but our main veteran guy only had 6.  But just think that if Kyrie and Haywad were there we probably would have swept em'.

Totally agree!

The problem is are the Celts good enough to beat the Warriors with their current roster?

I have no problem is Ainge does not do anything to improve the roster.
The Celts are fine.
My point is if there's an opportunity to improve, Ainge should capitalize.

I'm not saying Ainge should call the Spurs.
What I'm saying is if the Spurs call, Ainge should listen.

The Spurs know that the Celts are the only team right now with so many draft picks and young players.

It will be the Spurs calling the Celtics.

Ainge should listen and take advantage of the opportunity.

If Hayward can return at least somewhere close to what he was, the upgrade seems even more likely to be a young center draftee in my thinking.

No way Tatum sits behind anyone, probably not Brown either, so the much speculated Horford, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Irving starting 5 could be a reality. With that group, however, there is some serious room for better rebounding. That and the fact that Horford is something like 32, says go big in the draft. A second unit, with a late first round pick who can board, might be just the needed tweak. Someone to plug a hole and start prepping to possibly replace Horford in a season or two. A lower price FA center reclamation project might also be in the mix, depending on retaining Baynes and/or Monroe.

gyso wrote:Fierce,

From what I have read, Kawhi is broken. You can believe what you like.  I guess that we will have to wait and see.  Meanwhile, keep banging on the drum if that is to your liking.  I'm done discussing Kawhi.

LeBron's point average doesn't matter.  We would have beaten the Cavs if we are at full strength.  You saying I want to wait for him to retire is a straw man of your making.  Likewise your comment on KD.

I think we can beat GS with a few tweaks.  I think our young guys got great experience in our recent run in the playoffs.  Tatum is ready, Brown and Rozier need a bit more seasoning.  I hope we resign Smart and Baynes.

We are loaded for bear and in the majority of the regular season games, our bench will be playing during the fourth quarter in garbage time.  We'll see a lot of Gino at home.  We can easily find ourselves with home court advantage for the entire playoffs due to the best teams in the west beating each other up all year long.

We have so much talent that the coach will be able to rest our best players more than the other star based teams.  We do have a couple stars, but our bench players can easily handle more playing time and the results will be a well rested team going into the playoffs.  Nobody on our team will have to play "LeBron minutes" for us to be successful next season.

We have all season to figure out our best rotations.  I believe Danny Ainge and the management team will just tweak what we have now and then wait to see what we may actually need just before the trading deadline.  If we can avoid any major injuries, we can compete with any team.

gyso

Kawhi limited Lebron to less than 30 points per game in the 2014 Finals and Lebron and the Heat lost 4-1 to the Spurs.

Like you said, we'll just have to wait and see what happens this summer.

NYCelt wrote:If Hayward can return at least somewhere close to what he was, the upgrade seems even more likely to be a young center draftee in my thinking.

No way Tatum sits behind anyone, probably not Brown either, so the much speculated Horford, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Irving starting 5 could be a reality. With that group, however, there is some serious room for better rebounding. That and the fact that Horford is something like 32, says go big in the draft. A second unit, with a late first round pick who can board, might be just the needed tweak. Someone to plug a hole and start prepping to possibly replace Horford in a season or two. A lower price FA center reclamation project might also be in the mix, depending on retaining Baynes and/or Monroe.

Numerous times this season, when both Kyrie and Smart were healthy, Brown or Tatum sits in favor of Smart.

fierce wrote:

NYCelt wrote:If Hayward can return at least somewhere close to what he was, the upgrade seems even more likely to be a young center draftee in my thinking.

No way Tatum sits behind anyone, probably not Brown either, so the much speculated Horford, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Irving starting 5 could be a reality. With that group, however, there is some serious room for better rebounding. That and the fact that Horford is something like 32, says go big in the draft. A second unit, with a late first round pick who can board, might be just the needed tweak. Someone to plug a hole and start prepping to possibly replace Horford in a season or two. A lower price FA center reclamation project might also be in the mix, depending on retaining Baynes and/or Monroe.

Numerous times this season, when both Kyrie and Smart were healthy, Brown or Tatum sits in favor of Smart.

As part of the rotation and for limited defensive match-ups, yes, but not as part of the starting lineup, and providing Smart is with the team, not next season. As long as Tatum and Brown are healthy, long odds they sit behind anyone. But a tweak being the topic? A big or two. Count on that as well.

NYCelt wrote:

fierce wrote:

NYCelt wrote:If Hayward can return at least somewhere close to what he was, the upgrade seems even more likely to be a young center draftee in my thinking.

No way Tatum sits behind anyone, probably not Brown either, so the much speculated Horford, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Irving starting 5 could be a reality. With that group, however, there is some serious room for better rebounding. That and the fact that Horford is something like 32, says go big in the draft. A second unit, with a late first round pick who can board, might be just the needed tweak. Someone to plug a hole and start prepping to possibly replace Horford in a season or two. A lower price FA center reclamation project might also be in the mix, depending on retaining Baynes and/or Monroe.

Numerous times this season, when both Kyrie and Smart were healthy, Brown or Tatum sits in favor of Smart.

As part of the rotation and for limited defensive match-ups, yes, but not as part of the starting lineup, and providing Smart is with the team, not next season. As long as Tatum and Brown are healthy, long odds they sit behind anyone. But a tweak being the topic? A big or two. Count on that as well.

I wouldn't tweak the roster if it's not Kawhi Leonard.

The Celts will be fine as long as they keep Aron Baynes.

We don't need another big as long as we have Horford, Baynes, and Theis.

Just use the 1st round pick, #27, wisely.

I prefer the Celts draft DiVincenzo, if he's still available.

Yes, Brown will be the starter and Smart will still be the 6th man.
But what I'm referring to is who plays in the last 5 minutes of the game.
Brad always has Smart on the court when it's winning time.
Like I said, Celts have too many young talent.

With Kyrie back, Rozier becomes a luxury.
Celts can always use Larkin as the 3rd PG behind Kyrie and Smart.

Reason why I'm not sold on Brown as the SG of the future is because he's not that good defensively.
On offense, Jaylen Brown will score a lot of points.
But on defense, Gordon Hayward is better.

Again, if it's not Kawhi, no need for a trade.
Just keep the team intact and draft wisely.

But if the opportunity to get Kawhi is there, Ainge should capitalize.

This isn`t 2014 , and, as has been pointed out at least twice, Brown  and Rozier plus picks is not a salary match for Leonard. Maybe Theiss is the other big we need, but we were killed by Tristan Thompson , for cripes sake.A blind man can see we need a rebounder.  Six  or 7 players for Kawhi is insane, and several of the players it would take to match salaries with KL  are of no use to the Spurs anyway. Tatum and Brown figure to improve , BTW, just as Leonard did.

I guess I just don't see the need to make any drastic changes when we came within 8 points of beating Lebron's team without our two best players.

It's true that Jaylen has work to do defensively, but it's also true that his defense was one of the things that people praised in his draft scouting report.

It's true that he's not yet strong enough to guard lebron. It's also true that a lot can happen in a summer, and he's still incredibly young (and cheap!).

I say unless we can get Leonard on the cheap (and I'm not sure there's a way such that the salary caps work out), and unless it's true that we can guarantee that he'll be healthy moving forward, we stand pat, maybe try to trade up in the draft to get one of these talented young bigs (and take a couple of years to train him up to replace Horford in the starting 5), and continue to move forward on the well-earned assumption that we are the favorites in the east for the foreseeable future.

As for whether we can be GSW: We've done it in the regular season without one of our two stars. I see no reason to think that, provided we can keep some of our Curry-stoppers (smart and rozier), we'll be okay against them.

jrleftfoot wrote:This isn`t 2014 , and, as has been pointed out at least twice, Brown  and Rozier plus picks is not a salary match for Leonard. Maybe Theiss is the other big we need, but we were killed by Tristan Thompson , for cripes sake.A blind man can see we need a rebounder.  Six  or 7 players for Kawhi is insane, and several of the players it would take to match salaries with KL  are of no use to the Spurs anyway. Tatum and Brown figure to improve , BTW, just as Leonard did.

Here's the trade proposal I posted in page 1 of this thread.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybocyjyv

Players like Nader and Ojeleye have non-guaranteed contracts while Morris only 1 year left.
There's also a team option for Yabusele in 2019.

So player salaries will not be an issue for the Spurs as they will be getting players with expiring or non-guaranteed contracts.

Regarding the rebounding, in the 3 games the Celts won, they outrebounded the Cavs.
The only game where the Celts lost the game but won the rebounding battle was in Game 7.
In Game 7, the Celts outrebounded the Cavs 42-41.

Rebounding is not the issue.

The Celts simply couldn't stop Lebron.

Sure this isn't 2014, but when the Warriors are talking about adding Paul George to a core of KD, Curry, Klay, and Draymond, the Celts should also aspire to improve.

NESportsfan12 wrote:As for whether we can be GSW: We've done it in the regular season without one of our two stars. I see no reason to think that, provided we can keep some of our Curry-stoppers (smart and rozier), we'll be okay against them.

The Celts' best 5 will be Kyrie, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Smart.

Only 5 players can play at any given time.

Rozier and Brown will be on the bench in crunch time because no way Brad is going to play Kyrie with Rozier.
Brown will also sit because Brad always has Smart in the game when it's winning time.

And of course Ainge will not trade for Kawhi if he's not healthy and not willing to play for Boston.

fierce wrote:

NESportsfan12 wrote:As for whether we can be GSW: We've done it in the regular season without one of our two stars. I see no reason to think that, provided we can keep some of our Curry-stoppers (smart and rozier), we'll be okay against them.

The Celts' best 5 will be Kyrie, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Smart.

Only 5 players can play at any given time.

Rozier and Brown will be on the bench in crunch time because no way Brad is going to play Kyrie with Rozier.
Brown will also sit because Brad always has Smart in the game when it's winning time.

And of course Ainge will not trade for Kawhi if he's not healthy and not willing to play for Boston.

I guess the point is: A team where the five best players were KI, JB, JT, AH and MS beat the warriors in 1 game this year. The team without Kyrie, where the best players were MS JB JT AH and AB very nearly beat them a second time.  (I am remembering correctly that our second game was played without Kyrie, right? anyway...) It seems pretty clear given that track record that we should think of a team that puts another one of our best players on the bench (with the return of GH) will be that much better positioned to win.

I guess I'm just not convinced that given that track record against GSW, and given a summer for JB and JT to continue to improve, that GSW matches up particularly well against our full roster. In fact, I'd say that as currently constituted, a healthy Boston Celtics Roster has the best chance of anyone beating GSW in a 7 game series.

Clearly KL makes us better, if he's healthy. In that sense, we should listen, if they call. Danny always listens. But I'm actually pretty content to let JB develop rather than trading him away. A team with MS, MM and DT as the next four off the bench seems somewhat better to me than a team with basically scrubs coming off the bench, and a somewhat better starting five.

As for not being able to stop Lebron: I don't think that was the main issue this series. I think the main issue was inexperience down the stretch, and a lack of firepower. I think it's pretty clear that had we had GH or KI, we don't lose game 7 by 8 points, because if you have GH or KI or both, you're not letting Rozier shoot (and miss) 10 threes, and you're not giving an ice cold Jaylen Brown 12 shots from three. Instead, you've got the ball in the hands of capable veterans, and those players can stay within their comfort zones.

NESportsfan12 wrote:

fierce wrote:

NESportsfan12 wrote:As for whether we can be GSW: We've done it in the regular season without one of our two stars. I see no reason to think that, provided we can keep some of our Curry-stoppers (smart and rozier), we'll be okay against them.

The Celts' best 5 will be Kyrie, Tatum, Hayward, Horford, and Smart.

Only 5 players can play at any given time.

Rozier and Brown will be on the bench in crunch time because no way Brad is going to play Kyrie with Rozier.
Brown will also sit because Brad always has Smart in the game when it's winning time.

And of course Ainge will not trade for Kawhi if he's not healthy and not willing to play for Boston.

I guess the point is: A team where the five best players were KI, JB, JT, AH and MS beat the warriors in 1 game this year. The team without Kyrie, where the best players were MS JB JT AH and AB very nearly beat them a second time.  (I am remembering correctly that our second game was played without Kyrie, right? anyway...) It seems pretty clear given that track record that we should hope think of a team that puts another one of our best players on the bench (with the return of GH) will be that much better positioned to win.

I guess I'm just not convinced that given that track record against GSW, and given a summer for JB and JT to continue to improve, that GSW matches up particularly well against our full roster. In fact, I'd say that as currently constituted, a healthy Boston Celtics Roster has the best chance of anyone beating GSW in 7 games.

Clearly KL makes us better, if he's healthy. In that sense, we should listen, if they call. Danny always listens. But I'm actually pretty content to let JB develop rather than trading him away. A team with MS, MM and DT as the next four off the bench seems somewhat better to me than a team with basically scrubs coming off the bench, and a somewhat better starting five.

As for not being able to stop Lebron: I don't think that was the main issue this series. I think the main issue was inexperience down the stretch, and a lack of firepower. I think it's pretty clear that had we had GH or KI, we don't lose game 7 by 8 points, because if you have GH or KI or both

Agree.

That's why I said if it's Kawhi, do the deal.
If not then there's no need for Ainge to do anything.
This current Celtics team is very good.

But if Kawhi becomes available, Ainge has to capitalize.
A healthy Kawhi is an upgrade over Rozier and Brown.

Also, only way JB gets to play in crunch time is if Smart is no longer with the Celts.
Kyrie, Horford, Tatum, and Hayward are sure to be in the game.
It's between Smart and Brown and Brad always has Smart in late game situations.

Think about it, if you have Kawhi, Smart is suddenly not that important.
Kawhi won defensive player of the year twice!

A unit of Kyrie, Kawhi, Tatum, Horford, and Hayward will be the best starting 5 in the NBA.

The Celts will not be left with scrubs as the Celts will still have Baynes, Theis, and Larkin.

Those 3 aren't scrubs.