It's Time To Wake Up

#1 defense and next to last offense isn't going to win many games. The NBA is set up for offense now. You can play good defense but now days good offense will win over good defense IMO.

tardust wrote:#1 defense and next to last offense isn't going to win many games.   The NBA is set up for offense now.  You can play good defense but now days good offense will win over good defense IMO.

True.

Right now all teams in the NBA are averaging 100+ points per game.

Celts got out-rebounded 47-40 and Celts only went to the FT line 12 times while the Nugs attempted 28 FTs.

Right now the Celts are too dependent on the 3-point shot.

This is a flawed team.

No doubt this team has lots of "very good players", but if the Celts are to be a championship team, we need "great players".

Kyrie is the only true superstar this team has.

fierce,

Celtics have won just about all their titles with above average, very good players and few if any superstars. Yes, this includes Bill Russel and Larry Bird. These guys and any ones that looked like superstars were TEAM players. There is more than a way to get to the finals and win a championship. Having a couple of great players/starters is just one way. 5 above average, very good players/starters is another and is much more cost effective and efficient. (Celtics typically avoid all the ego issues from players. If they don't fit that mold, they are more than likely traded) Celtics have proven 17 times there is a different way to do it. I'm thinking they know what they are doing and have been around the block a few times on this. Take it or leave it.

db

dbrown4 wrote:fierce,

Celtics have won just about all their titles with above average, very good players and few if any superstars.  Yes, this includes Bill Russel and Larry Bird.  These guys and any ones that looked like superstars were TEAM players.  There is more than a way to get to the finals and win a championship.  Having a couple of great players/starters is just one way.  5 above average, very good players/starters is another and is much more cost effective and efficient.  (Celtics typically avoid all the ego issues from players.  If they don't fit that mold, they are more than likely traded) Celtics have proven 17 times there is a different way to do it.  I'm thinking they know what they are doing and have been around the block a few times on this.  Take it or leave it.    

db

Times are changing.

During the Bill Russell era, there was no 3-point shot.

The Larry Bird era didn't allow zone defense.

And the last Big 3 of KG, Pierce, and Ray, the shot-clock was reset to 24 secs. when you get an offensive rebound.

In today's NBA, the shot-clock will be reset to 14 secs. if you get an offensive rebound.

Check out the stats on points per game.
This is the first time I'm seeing all NBA teams averaging 100+ points per game.

I've been watching the Celtics and the NBA for more than 30 years.

dbrown4

Just look at the last 4 NBA Finals.
It's all about star power.

When was the last time an NBA team made it to the Finals with only one star player?

Also, the current Celtics team is flawed.
We can see it with our own eyes.
Too much reliance on the 3pt shot and the inability to get to the FT line is causing the Celts to lose games.

Celts are spending 60m per year on Hayward and Horford.

And the Celts are not even a top 2 team in the east.

This is not good.

We'll just have to see you at the finish line. Celtics will modify and tweak, but their record speaks for itself. So does LAL's.

db

What bothers me is there are 7 or 8 teams that average more points per game than our highest scoring game of the year. We need to create open shots for each other instead of hero ball. I think Kyrie averages about 5 assists a game and I bet 3 or 4 of them are to Al. Hopefully we will start making a higher percentage of 3's. We did the last two games and they were both losses.

tardust

Last year Boston shot 38% from behind the arc. This year through 10 games only they are shooting 35%. I am pretty certain that they will improve their 3P shooting simply because we added Hayward.

Boston did not shoot the 3 ball well last night. They are still searching for consistency in that area.

Teams take bad shots every game but it appears to me that the ball movement is improving. In Brad's offense they do not look for their PG to be the main distributor. Kyrie is averaging 5.3 APG. Curry is averaging 6.1 APG

Don't really see cause for concern here. I think when guys start making shots at a higher frequency the assist totals will increase.

The rule changes combined with an increase in the volume of 3 point shots has added on average around 6 points per game to all teams combined.

We sure have a lot of improvement that is needed. I think that will happen because I am an optimist when it comes to the Celtics.

(I was going to post this on the Butler thread but will leave it here instead. I am not looking to trade Kyrie per se but see no harm in venting some negativity. I believe the Celtics will turn it around very soon. The highs are overrated and the lows get too much focus. George Harrison said, "All things must pass.")

Here's a trade that works. Kyrie and Morris for Butler. That means Rozier and Smart battle to start. Hayward moves to the bench for at least this year to replace the Morris role. Jaylen becomes the small forward. Baynes, a healthy Theis or Tatum should alternate as the big to play with Al based on opponent. Roles become better defined.

The modern NBA is about constant change. I fear Kyrie will get his money and then stop trying hard on defense. Then we are stuck with the ultimate of divas who is apparently also injury prone. I worry K.I. isn't that good as a two-way player and will primarily eat too much into the salary cap. He might be a form of Carmelo Anthony or Kevin Love putting up stats but nothing immortal for pro basketball. He should join the Globetrotters to truly fulfill his potential?

People worried about paying Isaiah and don't realize this is deja vu or very similar. Kyrie is taller but I.T. was better at preventing scoring droughts and maintaining good team atmosphere.

To me, Kyrie is saying look how great I am at humility. It seems forced. Nearly everyone seems afraid to consider he might be overrated or risky the same way no one wants to think about Horford approaching his dinosaur years.

Hayward is potentially a devastating hit to overall team chances if he doesn't recover. I agree the future is now based on Horford's age. The clock is ticking on his stamina as a Big Three component. He is aging like fine wine but even LeBron is starting to fall apart. 32 is the last prime year. 33 tops. Then it's an inevitable quick decline and retirement. I'm hoping Horford is the Bob Cousy of this era around for the first few titles. Tatum can be the Larry Bird/Bill Russell or whatever so be it.

Hayward looks okay, so far, like he might fully recover or close enough?

He's definitely untradeable for right now. He is currently definitely a negative trade asset. The Hayward situation is dogging the team, period. It is the elephant in the room or rain cloud over Charlie Brown.

Speaking of Brown's, I'd give Jaylen Brown this full year before capping his ceiling the way you seem to be doing. He is not far off from true greatness. I think Tatum needs to be separated from the Kobe's and Kyrie's. They are not good role models, imho. Tatum should stick with Horford as his true mentor.

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Are you kidding me, Kyrie and Morris for Butler....???

That’s as inept at any other trade for Butler, the guy is a cancer!!!!

Hope you got that.

Why do some of you guys claim it's negativity?

Clearly the Celts are not playing well.

In case you guys didn't notice, Jaylen Brown was playing well last season.

What's the difference now?

Now the Celts have Hayward back.

Hayward's natural position is SG.
That's always been his position in Utah, where he blossomed and became an All-Star.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Are you kidding me, Kyrie and Morris for Butler....???

That’s as inept at any other trade for Butler, the guy is a cancer!!!!

Hope you got that.

And you thought my trade idea of Morris, Brown, Rozier, Ojeleye, and Yabu for Jimmy Butler was crazy.

Seriously, Kyrie and Morris for Jimmy Butler?

Even I wouldn't do that trade.

Kyrie is the Celtics best player period!

It's Fierce's idea to go after Butler, not mine. I simply found a trade for him which doesn't gut the team and then proceeded to a general rant on the current state of the Celtics. It's Fierce who wants to make the C's all shiny and glamorous, not me. I'll stick with the lunch pail mob plus Horford. I'd still roll the long-term dice on not only Brown and Tatum, but also on Rozier and Smart. All four of them look durable, reasonably priced and with open roofs to the sky as in no ceilings. They should remain the core, imho.

I'm hoping Tatum gets tough enough to cover power forward and then the C's are just missing Horford's replacement for a ten year window.

Other guys could be here for a long time too such as Theis, Ojeleye and even the mercurial Marcus Morris. Stranger things have happened. I've articulated the need to identify and sign worthy rotation players to long-term Jae Crowder styled contracts.

The typical Celtics fan of late must be in some pain or is non-human. This sort of roster speculation within a season is a form of inflammation which protects the fragile eggshell sports psyche in other areas of life. Maybe we want Rozier to slump a bit. Then no one will offer him a poison pill contract. Many believe there is a dimensional chess element to Danny's role. That is in play. Terry can flat out shoot and defend. Some people forget how good he is at protecting the ball and are seemingly trying to run him out of town. This is a frame-up and classic double cross on a player bleeding green. This is just meaningless sports related prose as vent and for entertainment value only. Anything is possible. There will be more games! There's always hope.

Terry Rozier has lived here for years and Fierce is saying he shouldn't let the door hit his butt on the way out? This is very sad. Or it's now the one word? Sad. Or pathetic is excellent. Pathetic. Just kidding. It's all good. Ha ha.

If my trade is so bad, then make them cough up some draft picks. Also, we'd be getting the guy not leaving for a while and Minnesota would have two guys maybe with a foot out the door or perhaps they will stay if treated like royalty. Toronto must be on edge. Sure, they are on top of the world right now but maybe Kawhi Leonard would rather live in warmer weather. Toronto doesn't scare me as much as Hayward coming back too slow. But then again, the satisfactory bar becomes the fourth seed for one round of home court. That would be good enough. So why overreact?

That's how little any of this matters. The C's could end up in the fourth slot and as long as they are playing well by April, they could still easily march into the Finals, cupcakes for everyone. Yeah, Leonard is a great player. Toronto is a true threat. They are our daddy. But I'd still bet on my Celtics. These guys are still just slumping. That's all this is. The schedule will get very easy soon and then the wins will reboot piling them up. 2-2 went to 6-2. I predict 6-4 will turn into 20-7.

First things first is to stop the bleeding with a road win.

I'm just trying to give a Kyrie a kick in the pants like Tommy did. I don't want players given so much money when they might be overrated. He is flashy as f ck, but that doesn't win titles or maybe it did once against Golden State. I concede there are worse things than being stuck with Kyrie Irving as a Big Three component. He is spectacular for scoring.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Are you kidding me, Kyrie and Morris for Butler....???

That’s as inept at any other trade for Butler, the guy is a cancer!!!!

Hope you got that.

You hope I have cancer? The trade works in the ESPN trade machine.

Phil

My Jimmy Butler trade is not far-fetched.

Before Kyrie told the world he was re-signing in Boston next summer, there was talk of Kyrie and Butler teaming up in NY next season.

GSW is the shiniest and most glamorous team in the NBA right now.
They've been in the Finals the last 4 seasons and they won 3 out of 4.

The lunch pail mob plus Horford doesn't work.
Horford has proven that when he was with Atlanta.
The Hawks and Horford always lost to the Celts' Big 3 of Pierce, KG, and Ray.

It's a tried and tested formula.
Star power equals championships.

Also, if Ainge is thinking long-term, like 2-3 years from now, he wouldn't have given Horford 28m per year and Hayward 32m per year.

Al Horford is already 32 years old.
Aaron Baynes is 31 years old.

The future is now!

fierce wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Are you kidding me, Kyrie and Morris for Butler....???

That’s as inept at any other trade for Butler, the guy is a cancer!!!!

Hope you got that.

And you thought my trade idea of Morris, Brown, Rozier, Ojeleye, and Yabu for Jimmy Butler was crazy.

Seriously, Kyrie and Morris for Jimmy Butler?

Even I wouldn't do that trade.

Kyrie is the Celtics best player period!

Kyrie is not the Celtics best two-way player.

He is in the Isaiah Thomas role. He is a flashy scorer. The truth hurts.

Phil Pressey wrote:

fierce wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Are you kidding me, Kyrie and Morris for Butler....???

That’s as inept at any other trade for Butler, the guy is a cancer!!!!

Hope you got that.

And you thought my trade idea of Morris, Brown, Rozier, Ojeleye, and Yabu for Jimmy Butler was crazy.

Seriously, Kyrie and Morris for Jimmy Butler?

Even I wouldn't do that trade.

Kyrie is the Celtics best player period!

Kyrie is not the Celtics best two-way player.

He is in the Isaiah Thomas role. He is a flashy scorer. The truth hurts.

You know the difference between Isaiah and Kyrie?

Isaiah had one great year.

Kyrie Irving has been in the Finals 3 times and he won a championship when he hit a game winning 3-pointer in a Finals Game 7!

Is Steph Curry a two-way player?
Of course not.
But he's a two-time league MVP.

In today's NBA, offense trumps defense.
The league has made it difficult for defenders to defend.
Refs are very quick to blow the whistle, unlike the NBA of years past.
So the more you score the more chances of winning you have.

Yeah, Kyrie is a scorer, not a true PG.
But that's what we need more of.

Celts are not going to be an elite team if Kyrie is the only scorer and the rest are just 14 points per game players.

I agree Danny might want to do a consolidation trade but five for one like you offered is unrealistic.

Phil Pressey wrote:I agree Danny might want to do a consolidation trade but five for one like you offered is unrealistic.

It's not unrealistic.

Yabu and Ojeleye are just fillers.

Rozier is good as gone next summer so might as well get something for Rozier.

Brown and Morris are the only ones significant in that trade proposal.

My only concern with Morris is he will ask for more money next summer.
At 5m per year, Morris is a bargain.

That leaves the Celts with Smart, Baynes, Theis, Rob Williams, and Wanamaker on the bench.

By having Butler, Tatum, and Hayward, the Celts will always have one star player on the court no matter what quarter it is.
Tatum, Hayward, and Butler getting 30 minutes per game is not a bad thing.
Celts will always have a scorer on the court.

Let's not forget the Celts still have the Kings pick in 2019.
Unless the Kings make it to the playoffs, that Kings pick is a lottery pick.
That will enable the Celts to replenish the bench.

Phil Pressey wrote:I understand Kyrie probably won't be traded because he wouldn't be worth much as a rental. But maybe he could be added to the Sacramento pick and other players. Long-term I don't think he is guaranteed to remain indefinitely. Danny can be unpredictable like that.

I want Kyrie to succeed but I remember how Isaiah Thomas turned out. One never knows is my point. I like how Rozier is safe with the basketball. Smart seems to be better this year. Brown and Tatum looked like they would have huge games last night but it never happened. It was just one game. You can't win them all.

I totally disagree with your assessment/opinion of Kyrie. But as you said, its your opinion.
Let’s not get too carried away with Rozier. Yeah he filled in nicely for Kylie last year but please keep in mind that he is not a point guard and he’s a career 40% shooter. Not great numbers for someone who is truly a shooting guard.
No the sky ain’t falling but I see no reason not to upgrade (For a superstar, Not Butler) if the opportunity presents itself. At this point, we are no where close to beating a Golden State but I pray that that changes by seasons end.

Phil Pressey wrote:Convivial to one person means doublespeak to another.

Bingo! You are so right about that.

dbrown4 wrote:fierce,

Celtics have won just about all their titles with above average, very good players and few if any superstars.  Yes, this includes Bill Russel and Larry Bird.  These guys and any ones that looked like superstars were TEAM players.  There is more than a way to get to the finals and win a championship.  Having a couple of great players/starters is just one way.  5 above average, very good players/starters is another and is much more cost effective and efficient.  (Celtics typically avoid all the ego issues from players.  If they don't fit that mold, they are more than likely traded) Celtics have proven 17 times there is a different way to do it.  I'm thinking they know what they are doing and have been around the block a few times on this.  Take it or leave it.    

db

Bill Russell played with Sam Jones, Tommy H and Havlicek. Larry Siegfried was a very good player. Those other 3? HOF STARS!