It's Time To Wake Up

Way too early in the season?

I told you guys it's only a matter of time before someone starts complaining.

So much for being so deep.

Fierce

i have to take exception with your assessment  quoted below:

"Adjustment period is not an excuse.

This Celtics team is basically the same team as last year.

The only significant new addition is Rob Williams.

It's understandable if this team only played together this season.
But this team already played together last season.
I don't think it's an adjustment problem.
Clearly the Celts don't have the right personnel right now.
Celts have too many good players and not enough great on"

Kyrie said in an interview that this is an entirely new team.  He indicated that even though most of the guys played together it was a new team.  He said this in relation to them working to come together and gel.

You state "Clearly the Celts don't have the right personnel right now."  and "But this team already played together last season."

If they have basically the same personnel how is it that that started off 16-2 last year?

I understand what you mean by great players but have you considered that both Tatum and Brown are on a trajectory to become great players?  And that we already have a great player in Irving.  I also expect that Hayward will be a difference maker.

I still firmly believe that once the Celtics gel, their depth top to bottom will allow them to compete with any team out their.

The Celtics strategy has an expiration date well into the future.  

The longer  team plays together the better they will play together.  This team is only one year + 10 games removed from a near complete rebuild of the roster that including the addition of 11 new players.

An Adjustment period is a logical and necessary part of the process.  10 game in is a very short period of time.

dboss

Tatum is on the verge of becoming a star, true.
But his 16 points per game in 33 minutes per game is not good enough.
Until he averages 20 points per game, he's not there yet.

Jaylen Brown is looking more like Iman Shumpert this season.
So much athletic ability and potential but he doesn't really live up to it.
Jaylen thinks he can out-jump and overpower every defender he faces.
That's why he ends up getting his shot blocked or he's stripped of the ball.

Sure 10 games is a very short period of time.
But it's not about how many games they play, it's about how they're playing.
Jacking up 3s all game long is not the answer.
Even if they play 20 or 50 games, if they keep shooting 3s at will then they will fail.

It's clearly a flawed team.

Last year I recall that Morris was unhappy with his playing time.

I actually like it when guys are not happy with their playing time.

I could just dig out the Terry Rozier thread and we could all prognosticate AGAIN about what could happen.

dboss wrote:Last year I recall that Morris was unhappy with his playing time.

I actually like it when guys are not happy with their playing time.

I could just dig out the Terry Rozier thread and we could all prognosticate AGAIN about what could happen.

The case with Morris is different.

Morris can play PF or SF.

Rozier right now is basically the 3rd string PG.

If the Celts were a hand in a game of cards, Celts right now would be composed of jacks and queens.

Ainge needs to trade some of the jacks and queens for an ace or a king.

fierce wrote:dboss

Tatum is on the verge of becoming a star, true.
But his 16 points per game in 33 minutes per game is not good enough.
Until he averages 20 points per game, he's not there yet.

Jaylen Brown is looking more like Iman Shumpert this season.
So much athletic ability and potential but he doesn't really live up to it.
Jaylen thinks he can out-jump and overpower every defender he faces.
That's why he ends up getting his shot blocked or he's stripped of the ball.

Sure 10 games is a very short period of time.
But it's not about how many games they play, it's about how they're playing.
Jacking up 3s all game long is not the answer.
Even if they play 20 or 50 games, if they keep shooting 3s at will then they will fail.

It's clearly a flawed team.

It is not clearly a flawed team. It is a team with a lot of young developing players. Those guys are better at this point in their career than that Butler character was. The other night against Denver i thought brown was very effective getting to the rim and finishing. And as far as Tatum is concerned he is leading the team in rebounds and he is still 21 years old. He does not have to be a 20 PPG scorer for Boston to win right now but it will come. As far as jacking up threes have you looked at the league. Everybody is jacking up threes. They put up 31 last game and they got to the rim and won the Points in the paint battle (50-42)

You know what that's called ? it is called an adjustment. Even a blind man can see they can and will adjust as they work through things.

fierce wrote:If the Celts were a hand in a game of cards, Celts right now would be composed of jacks and queens.

Ainge needs to trade some of the jacks and queens for an ace or a king.

Like who Jimmy Butler?

dboss wrote:

fierce wrote:dboss

Tatum is on the verge of becoming a star, true.
But his 16 points per game in 33 minutes per game is not good enough.
Until he averages 20 points per game, he's not there yet.

Jaylen Brown is looking more like Iman Shumpert this season.
So much athletic ability and potential but he doesn't really live up to it.
Jaylen thinks he can out-jump and overpower every defender he faces.
That's why he ends up getting his shot blocked or he's stripped of the ball.

Sure 10 games is a very short period of time.
But it's not about how many games they play, it's about how they're playing.
Jacking up 3s all game long is not the answer.
Even if they play 20 or 50 games, if they keep shooting 3s at will then they will fail.

It's clearly a flawed team.

It is not clearly a flawed team.  It is a team with a lot of young developing players.  Those guys are better at this point in their career than that Butler character was.  The other night against Denver i thought brown was very effective getting to the rim and finishing.  And as far as Tatum is concerned he is leading the team in rebounds and he is still 21 years old.  He does not have to be a 20 PPG scorer for Boston to win right now but it will come.    As far as jacking up threes have you looked at the league.  Everybody is jacking up threes.  They put up 31 last game and they got to the rim and won the Points in the paint battle (50-42)

You know what that's called ? it is called an adjustment.  Even a blind man can see they can and will adjust as they work through things.

Time will tell.

But from what I'm seeing, Celts are even struggling to beat the bad teams like Orlando and the Pistons.
Easy wins turn out to be a struggle because Celts go on a scoring drought every time.

I'm not blind.
If you can't see that the Celts are flawed then let's revisit this subject when the Celts have played 20 games.

Also, Rozier is unhappy with playing time.
I said it would just be a matter of time before someone complains because the Celts have too many good players.

dboss wrote:

fierce wrote:If the Celts were a hand in a game of cards, Celts right now would be composed of jacks and queens.

Ainge needs to trade some of the jacks and queens for an ace or a king.

Like who Jimmy Butler?  

Jimmy Butler is just one option.

There are others out there.

Jimmy Butler cannot possibly be an option because Danny is not interested in him. He is not an option. He is your option.

I do not see anything the team is doing wrong that cannot be corrected. There are a lot of talented high IQ guys on this team and we have a pretty smart coach.

I think the differences that I have with you on this topic is how we perceive this team. We both agree that they have a lot of work to do. I think they can do that work and you think they need to trade for another allstar level player. You think it is about talent and I think it is about schematics and execution. I am happy with the talent.

dboss wrote:Jimmy Butler cannot possibly be an option because Danny is not interested in him.  He is not an option.  He is your option.  

I do not see anything the team is doing wrong that cannot be corrected.  There are a lot of talented high IQ guys on this team and we have a pretty smart coach.

I think the differences that I have with you on this topic is how we perceive this team.  We both agree that they have a lot of work to do.  I think they can do that work and you think they need to trade for another allstar level player.  You think it is about talent and I think it is about  schematics and execution.  I am happy with the talent.

It's good we agree that they have a lot of work to do.

The talent level or the lack of star power will only be resolved in the playoffs.
If the Celts fail to make it to the NBA Finals in June, that means the Celts lacked star power.

Right now the Celts are just 27th in scoring at 104.2 ppg.
If the Celts are so talented then why is scoring a problem?

Celts go on scoring droughts every game.
That's why the Celts always end up struggling to beat teams in the 4th even when the Celts have a lead late in the game.

Fierce- Unfortunately for at least now Hayward is still damaged goods. Maybe we just have to wait for him and others to improve. Brad's teams always get better. Sweeping the rest of the road trip could cure everything.

We should probably agree to disagree. I am all in with Rozier and Jaylen Brown.

I agree Yabusele is currently filler. Morris, Brown, Rozier and Ojeleye is too much for Butler who is already 29 (plus there's word of cancer). I'd stay the course with the young core. Wait out Golden State a bit longer. The Warriors might be facing an inevitable decline after this one last year. Try to steal the title. This could just be a team-wide slump.

Ktronic- Thanks for the comments. No, I don't want Butler but don't mind playing with the trade machine. I'm reacting to Fierce similar to yourself agreeing with him philosophically just not with his choices.

His point of departure is that Rozier is gone no matter what. I did go overboard with his shooting. I should have said compared to Smart, he is a natural. I like his form and overall game. He nails free throws. He reminds me a bit of Andrew Toney. I'm not afraid to go for a title with Rozier as a big chunk of the rotation. I like this team. They are getting ripped off with this long west coast road trip. This was bad luck.

I used to think Kyrie Irving detractors were Cleveland fans afflicted with sour grapes. Now I'm thinking it is getting complex whether Kyrie is great or posing as such. His effort on defense is noticeable. Is that to get his next contract? What I find most disturbing about Kyrie's game is his inability to pile up assists without silly turnovers.

So Fierce brought up the idea of shake it up with a big trade. I figured, well, since Hayward isn't worth much right now, could Kyrie be traded for Butler. I like the two-way concept; become a great team on both ends. I don't like NBA as fake wrestling. I do not respect the league or most of it. I only follow out of the need to kill time. I am not inventing a topic called Kyrie Irving is overrated. It's out there and more plausible than one might expect. He never gets better at the pure pg skills. If he was so special, one might imagine more games with 10 assists versus one turnover. This could be talking about super duper maximum money for a one-way scorer?

He told the fan to (expletive deleted). I don't trust him as a person but admit that part doesn't matter. KG punched a dude in the nuts. Rondo threw a guy out of bounds and fake spit on Chris Paul. But then thanks to Rondo I finally learned what a disgusting, dirty player is Chris Paul. I did not know that.

I look at Houston on tilt and Philly as an inevitable train wreck. The Celtics? Not so much other than a two game losing streak. Worst case scenario get the fourth seed and gel for the playoffs. That works, too.

The great thing about Fierce's trade proposal is it will never happen. I no longer want Anthony Davis either. I don't want narcissists leading this team. I see Kyrie as the potential Nomar Garciaparra of the Celtics. Move him for the defensive first baseman/center (Horford's replacement?) and then it might be addition by subtraction.

I hope I'm wrong and will eat major crow if Irving becomes a true deserving Celtics legend. He is very clutch and outstanding at piling up points. He is the correct age.

dboss wrote:

Ktronic1 wrote:

gyso wrote:Fierce,

Much of what you say doesn't pass the sniff test.

Teams rarely practice during the season, there's just no time between travel and games.

Preseason has been shortened so much that it has been made almost useless.  That certainly has changed from the 60's when they even played a preseason game in my HS gym.

Hayward didn't play or practice 5 on 5 for almost one year.  Even last season, the short pre-season and 5 minutes of one game didn't help familiarize the rest of the team with his skill set, preferences and tendencies.  Going into this season, not only is he not 100%, it is just like he was added brand new this season.

The 2007-2008 season perfect storm team has nothing to do with the current situation.  Back then, we added two first-ballot hall of famers to our own first-ballot hall of famer.  All three were veteran players who were towards the end of their prime.  All three players fit like a glove with their skill-sets.  The bench players (Posey, House, etc.) were also veteran players close to the end of their careers.  The only similarity between then and now is the color uniform they wore.

The money spent on players has no direct correlation to their production.  It never has and it never will.  If you ever listened to Tommy when he has spoken to what Horford brings to the team you would better understand his role.  Same with Hayward.  Ignore the sage comments from Tommy at your peril.

The Celtics set and broke 3-point shooting records all last season, so it isn't exactly a new trend.  They've ratcheted it up even more this season.  That is where the league is going, I don't necessarily like that style myself, so too bad for me and any other dinosaur who likes the old styles of play more than the current style.  Suggesting that others are blaming Hayward for the increase in 3-point shooting is just a straw man argument of your own making.

I will agree that Horford passing up points in the paint for a 3-point shot doesn't sit well with me.  I have mentioned that in the Game On! thread.  However, to use that as one of the pillars of your argument s cherry picking at best.  It only happens once or twice in a game, if that.

Repeating the same false statements over and over (and over . . .) again doesn't make them true.  If you haven't seen the pattern that practically no one here agrees with you, that is too bad for you.  Most here will agree with me when I say that you are serving up some seriously weak tea on this subject.

gyso

The 2007-08 team may have been a perfect storm but with that many new players on a roster, 1st ballot or no ballot, they still had to learn each others tendencies and gell. They did and won 66 on there way to a title. To say that they did not have to adjust to each other because of where they were in their careers is suspect at best.

That 2007-08 team was special and they came together right out of the gate.  Everyone was surprised that they were so good so soon.  They began with an 8 game winning streak before losing and they also has streaks of 9, 9,10 and 7 straight wins.  That was 10 years ago.

If you did not look at their win loss totals and just looked at their stats it may really emphasize how the game has changed.

That team average 72.7 FGA.  They only averaged 100 PPG.   They took 19 3PA and shot 38%.  They grabbed 42 boards.  they only had 4 guys in double figures with Rondo making the cut at 10.6 PPG.  The big 3 ate up most of the minutes.  The big 3 average 13.7, 13.9 and  13.5 FGA per game.  No one else average double digits in shot attempts.   The bench came together quickly and provided contributions.  Roles were clearly defined.  

That was a different time and a different style.  I thought it was a rare accomplishment that they won that first year.

I was surprised that they came together and were good right from the jump. Apparently it didn’t take very long to get to know each other and you’re correct. It’s very rare..and special.

gyso wrote:I don't agree.  They came out of the chute like they had been playing together for years.  What do you attribute that to?

Edit: Dboss got his post in before mine.  He said gate.  I said chute.  One of us has to be wrong.

They did but they had to get to know and get accustomed to each other. Otherwise they wouldn’t have played that great and won. They just came together quicker than Any team that i can remember.

Phil Pressey wrote:Ktronic- Thanks for the comments. No, I don't want Butler but don't mind playing with the trade machine. I'm reacting to Fierce similar to yourself agreeing with him philosophically just not with his choices.

His point of departure is that Rozier is gone no matter what. I did go overboard with his shooting. I should have said compared to Smart, he is a natural. I like his form and overall game. He nails free throws. He reminds me a bit of Andrew Toney. I'm not afraid to go for a title with Rozier as a big chunk of the rotation. I like this team. They are getting ripped off with this long west coast road trip. This was bad luck.

I used to think Kyrie Irving detractors were Cleveland fans afflicted with sour grapes. Now I'm thinking it is getting complex whether Kyrie is great or posing as such. His effort on defense is noticeable. Is that to get his next contract? What I find most disturbing about Kyrie's game is his inability to pile up assists without silly turnovers.

So Fierce brought up the idea of shake it up with a big trade. I figured, well, since Hayward isn't worth much right now, could Kyrie be traded for Butler. I like the two-way concept; become a great team on both ends. I don't like NBA as fake wrestling. I do not respect the league or most of it. I only follow out of the need to kill time. I am not inventing a topic called Kyrie Irving is overrated. It's out there and more plausible than one might expect. He never gets better at the pure pg skills. If he was so special, one might imagine more games with 10 assists versus one turnover. This could be talking about super duper maximum money for a one-way scorer?

He told the fan to (expletive deleted). I don't trust him as a person but admit that part doesn't matter. KG punched a dude in the nuts. Rondo threw a guy out of bounds and fake spit on Chris Paul. But then thanks to Rondo I finally learned what a disgusting, dirty player is Chris Paul. I did not know that.

I look at Houston on tilt and Philly as an inevitable train wreck. The Celtics? Not so much other than a two game losing streak. Worst case scenario get the fourth seed and gel for the playoffs. That works, too.

The great thing about Fierce's trade proposal is it will never happen. I no longer want Anthony Davis either. I don't want narcissists leading this team. I see Kyrie as the potential Nomar Garciaparra of the Celtics. Move him for the defensive first baseman/center (Horford's replacement?) and then it might be addition by subtraction.

I hope I'm wrong and will eat major crow if Irving becomes a true deserving Celtics legend. He is very clutch and outstanding at piling up points. He is the correct age.

Cool. If I’m wrong I will be the first to admit it..unless someone beats me to the punch. I think we all want banner 18 and soon. I don’t care how they get it as long as they get it.

Phil Pressey wrote:Fierce- Unfortunately for at least now Hayward is still damaged goods. Maybe we just have to wait for him and others to improve. Brad's teams always get better. Sweeping the rest of the road trip could cure everything.

We should probably agree to disagree. I am all in with Rozier and Jaylen Brown.

I agree Yabusele is currently filler. Morris, Brown, Rozier and Ojeleye is too much for Butler who is already 29 (plus there's word of cancer). I'd stay the course with the young core. Wait out Golden State a bit longer. The Warriors might be facing an inevitable decline after this one last year. Try to steal the title. This could just be a team-wide slump.

Agree to disagree.

Time will tell.

As long Kyrie and Smart are Celtic players, there's no place for Rozier.

Jaylen can be great but until it happens, right now it's all potential.

Ktronic1 wrote:

gyso wrote:I don't agree.  They came out of the chute like they had been playing together for years.  What do you attribute that to?

Edit: Dboss got his post in before mine.  He said gate.  I said chute.  One of us has to be wrong.

They did but they had to get to know and get accustomed to each other. Otherwise they wouldn’t have played that great and won.  They just came together quicker than Any team that i can remember.

It is either:

1. They came out of the chute (or gate) like they had been playing together for years.

or

2. They had to get to know and get accustomed to each other.

History strongly suggests that it is #1.

You wrote to dboss, "Apparently it didn’t take very long to get to know each other and you’re correct. It’s very rare..and special." and to me you wrote, " . . . but they had to get to know and get accustomed to each other." Dboss and I basically said the same thing, except he provided stats. You agreed with him and disagreed with me.

gyso wrote:

Ktronic1 wrote:

gyso wrote:I don't agree.  They came out of the chute like they had been playing together for years.  What do you attribute that to?

Edit: Dboss got his post in before mine.  He said gate.  I said chute.  One of us has to be wrong.

They did but they had to get to know and get accustomed to each other. Otherwise they wouldn’t have played that great and won.  They just came together quicker than Any team that i can remember.

It is either:

1. They came out of the chute (or gate) like they had been playing together for years.

or

2. They had to get to know and get accustomed to each other.

History strongly suggests that it is #1.

You wrote to dboss, "Apparently it didn’t take very long to get to know each other and you’re correct. It’s very rare..and special." and to me you wrote, " . . . but they had to get to know and get accustomed to each other."  Dboss and I basically said the same thing, except he provided stats.  You agreed with him and disagreed with me.  

And I said the same thing. I disagreed that based on my interpretation, you were saying they didn’t and they just got on the court and magically won games without learning each other. Maybe I misinterpreted what you were implying. If one can coach a team with players don’t don’t know each other and be successful I’d love to see it. And..I’d love to coach against him/her.

It sounds like we are splitting hairs.

For any fan out there that believes the Celtics do not have an impressive roster you are in fact challenging what Danny Ainge has done.  This is his roster.  If you are not able to see the value of coaching as it relates to winning then you will not really appreciate the job that Stevens has done.  

I can and will always find some fault with the Celtics.  Everybody knows I am not shy about these things.

My overall impression is one of exhilaration.  I am more than happy with our roster, our coach and our GM.  

Are there players out there that would look good in a Celtics uniform?  hell yes.  is there a specific need to upgrade 1-5 this year?  hell no.

Each team that Stevens has coached has improved.  I am pretty certain that this team will improve as well.

fierce wrote:

Phil Pressey wrote:Fierce- Unfortunately for at least now Hayward is still damaged goods. Maybe we just have to wait for him and others to improve. Brad's teams always get better. Sweeping the rest of the road trip could cure everything.

We should probably agree to disagree. I am all in with Rozier and Jaylen Brown.

I agree Yabusele is currently filler. Morris, Brown, Rozier and Ojeleye is too much for Butler who is already 29 (plus there's word of cancer). I'd stay the course with the young core. Wait out Golden State a bit longer. The Warriors might be facing an inevitable decline after this one last year. Try to steal the title. This could just be a team-wide slump.

Agree to disagree.

Time will tell.

As long Kyrie and Smart are Celtic players, there's no place for Rozier.

Jaylen can be great but until it happens, right now it's all potential.

I like the cost effectiveness of Terry and Jaylen. Kyrie doesn't push the needle for me as a facilitator. There is only so much money. Rozier is less likely than Brown to become an all-star but again, I like the team's chances with him as part of the core. He and Smart work well together. I love the defensive identity. I've always wanted more Baynes and am saddened Theis can't stay healthy. I love Marcus Morris. He is someone I condemned as mediocre but he and Marcus Smart have turned it around. They are in great shape.

Kyrie had to be told by Heinsohn to lose five pounds. That's disgraceful.

Brown might fizzle a bit. He might become a very good not great player. I do think he is still in the hunt as is Tatum to become transcendent. He is very close to being as good as Butler on both ends. It's only his third year. I thought the rule was give young players at least three years before proceeding to a condemnation phase.

I think anyone including Kyrie could take leaps. Smart could start nailing his jump shots. Anything is literally possible. I think Ainge needs more data. I think it's up in the air who stays, who goes or maybe this is it, this is the team.

LeBron wasn't winning regular seasons lately yet still went to the Finals. The sky is not destined to fall even if the C's don't snap out of the funk. The switch could be turned on. Hayward in a couple more months of comeback might be like trading for a star to replace damaged goods Hayward. I think this team needs to be left alone until at least much closer to the trade deadline, including Rozier.