Re: Stealing from Mark Twain....

by **beat** Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:51 am

Sinus

I liked the Defensive deal with Kobe, didn't let him run wild but made him work on both ends. Made him a go to the left jump shooter which is probably the toughest think for him to do (but not by much). We attacked them a lot and except for the few minutes surrounding the half on each end played with focus. Even the players that struggled were doing something out there to help.

Think Doc needs to give Rondo a few more breaks too as he was flat out beat in the third. But those 5-6 minutes on the bench to start the thrid seemed to refresh him enough (heck more than enough)

Wonder if Doc left any money in the locker room ceiling this time?

beat

beat

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:07 am

tjmakz wrote:
gyso wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
jeb65 wrote:but i do think phil is a low fiber turd that just will not flush

jeb,

This is some real high quality basketball analysis from you.
Who do you want to compare Phil to? Doc?
Is 10-9 really that painful to you that you would revert to childish name calling?

tj,

childish name calling? Please don't start down that road again.

As was said earlier, this is a Celtics board. As such Lakers fans are simply going to have to put up with a lot of pro-Celtics stuff or even anti-Lakers stuff. And Lakers fans are also going to be sensitive to the fact that the Celtics fans on the board enjoy a certain sense of solidarity that may feel threatened by posts that would seem innocuous on a Lakers board. For their part, Celtics fans will have to recognize that Lakers fans have a right to be heard. But there's absolutely no excuse for making any of this sarcastically or antagonistically personal in either direction.

Feel free to send the Private Message to Sam or Sam's email address (SlipSamCelt@aol.com) with respect to this thread or anything else you have a problem with. Inputs from any of you are welcome.

gyso

gyso,

Is calling Phil a Piece of Sh@* protected speech under the "going to have to put up with a lot of pro-Celtics stuff or even anti-Lakers stuff" heading?
If I was on a Lakers board and someone called Doc, Danny, Red or anyone else a Piece of Sh, I would call them out over it.
If I was a moderator, I would delete the post or thread if necessasy.

What is the minimum level of human respect that is expected from Celtics posters here?

TJ,

I have tried, assiduously, to avoid getting into personally insulting any poster here. I hope you agree I have been generally polite with you.

I have to say, though, that in this case I think you might be a little oversensitive. Nobody was calling YOU a piece of shit. That would be completely unacceptable.

If you want to call KG a piece of shit, based upon his performance the last two games, go ahead. I might even agree with you even as I point out the silver lining is that he still has at least 3 more games to redeem himself. I'm alright with that because you didn't call ME a piece of shit.

As die-hard fans of our respective teams we have a tendency to identify with them and their performance and see them, in some ways, as a reflection of ourselves. Just to state the obvious, though, you are not Phil Jackson and you probably shouldn't take insults hurled at him personally.

Just my 2c,

bob
P.S. For the record, I do not think Phil Jackson is a piece of shit. I do think, however, he's sounding like a whiny little beeyatch about the referreeing. The Lakers were called for the exact same number of calls as the Celtics and took 15 more fta than the Celtics. It makes a great coach like Phil Jackson look bad when your team takes 41 ftas and then you bitch about the officials not letting your team "play through the bumps". Doc could say the same thing, to try to keep the Lakers off the free throw line, but he didn't. This game would have been a blow out if the Lakers took 26 ftas like the Celtics, or if the Celtics had been given 41 ftas like the Lakers. That's NOT why the Lakers lost.

.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:24 am

bob,

I have much respect for you and the way you post.
I always enjoy reading your thoughts.

I could/would never call KG a piece of shit/turd/dung even if it was about his play.
jeb was talking about Phil, not a coaching decision he made.
In all fairness, I could say that KG has played terrible and has not showed up despite the "motivational talk" with Russell, but in fairness, I have to mention what a bust Odom has been in the first two games also.

Why can't jeb or others state a reasonable argument about Phil, like he has always had superstars, etc.
I would love to have a discussion about Phil vs. other coaches, not whether Phil is a turd. That is very low class.

I love what Phil does with the referees. He stands up for his team and is looking to get the next close call. I don't think Phil is concerned about the way he 'looks' in discussing the foul calls.
I would love to hear Doc address the foul calls. If you feel you have been slighted or wronged, then speak up. Ray's 5th foul call in game 1 was terrible.
Don't look at free throw attempts as any indicator of refereeing. It is usually because of offensive aggressiveness.
LA did not lose that game because of foul calls. They lost because of Ray, Rondo and their own lack of execution down the stretch.
In the end, 1-1 is where this series should be.
At least all of the foul calls has not determined a game.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:36 am

bob,

From everything I have read about Phil is that he is genuinely a kind and generous man with high values.
I have a much easier time accepting personal negative comments about Kobe or Artest who I don't really like as individuals and how they treat other people .

by **gyso** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:16 pm

tjmakz wrote:bob,

I have much respect for you and the way you post.
I always enjoy reading your thoughts.

I could/would never call KG a piece of shit/turd/dung even if it was about his play.
jeb was talking about Phil, not a coaching decision he made.
In all fairness, I could say that KG has played terrible and has not showed up despite the "motivational talk" with Russell, but in fairness, I have to mention what a bust Odom has been in the first two games also.

Why can't jeb or others state a reasonable argument about Phil, like he has always had superstars, etc.
I would love to have a discussion about Phil vs. other coaches, not whether Phil is a turd. That is very low class.

I love what Phil does with the referees. He stands up for his team and is looking to get the next close call. I don't think Phil is concerned about the way he 'looks' in discussing the foul calls.
I would love to hear Doc address the foul calls. If you feel you have been slighted or wronged, then speak up. Ray's 5th foul call in game 1 was terrible.
Don't look at free throw attempts as any indicator of refereeing. It is usually because of offensive aggressiveness.
LA did not lose that game because of foul calls. They lost because of Ray, Rondo and their own lack of execution down the stretch.
In the end, 1-1 is where this series should be.
At least all of the foul calls has not determined a game.

tj,

Once again, you are applying a label directly on another member of the forum. I repeat myself:

As was said earlier, this is a Celtics board. As such Lakers fans are simply going to have to put up with a lot of pro-Celtics stuff or even anti-Lakers stuff. And Lakers fans are also going to be sensitive to the fact that the Celtics fans on the board enjoy a certain sense of solidarity that may feel threatened by posts that would seem innocuous on a Lakers board. For their part, Celtics fans will have to recognize that Lakers fans have a right to be heard. But there's absolutely no excuse for making any of this sarcastically or antagonistically personal in either direction.

Feel free to send the Private Message to Sam or Sam's email address (SlipSamCelt@aol.com) with respect to this thread or anything else you have a problem with. Inputs from any of you are welcome.

gyso

by **LACELTFAN** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:18 pm

tjmakz wrote:
gyso wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
jeb65 wrote:but i do think phil is a low fiber turd that just will not flush

jeb,

This is some real high quality basketball analysis from you.
Who do you want to compare Phil to? Doc?
Is 10-9 really that painful to you that you would revert to childish name calling?

tj,

childish name calling? Please don't start down that road again.

As was said earlier, this is a Celtics board. As such Lakers fans are simply going to have to put up with a lot of pro-Celtics stuff or even anti-Lakers stuff. And Lakers fans are also going to be sensitive to the fact that the Celtics fans on the board enjoy a certain sense of solidarity that may feel threatened by posts that would seem innocuous on a Lakers board. For their part, Celtics fans will have to recognize that Lakers fans have a right to be heard. But there's absolutely no excuse for making any of this sarcastically or antagonistically personal in either direction.

Feel free to send the Private Message to Sam or Sam's email address (SlipSamCelt@aol.com) with respect to this thread or anything else you have a problem with. Inputs from any of you are welcome.

gyso

gyso,

Is calling Phil a Piece of Sh@* protected speech under the "going to have to put up with a lot of pro-Celtics stuff or even anti-Lakers stuff" heading?
If I was on a Lakers board and someone called Doc, Danny, Red or anyone else a Piece of Sh, I would call them out over it.
If I was a moderator, I would delete the post or thread if necessasy.

What is the minimum level of human respect that is expected from Celtics posters here?

tj- I don't know what a choad is, and I don't particularly agree with the characterisation...but I admit I laughed because like all whacky humor there is at least a little truth in it. I think Jackson is a very good coach...I don't think that you get a record like his by luck alone or even 50% luck. But you have to admit he has been put into some very fortunate situations. I think there may be some resentment on this board because people feel that it isn't proper to put Jackson in the same sentence as Red. I'm not one of them, by the way. But they may feel that what Red did was much more difficult and a much larger task, when you look at the entirety of what he did...surely you can understand that. I think you can compare championships coached, period...beyond that it's laughable to compare what they were able to accomplish.
As for locking down my thread or deleting it, I would rather they didn't. I didn't take a shot at Phil except to say that he's a hypocrit but then I'm guessing he's not alone there...it happens, I just get a kick out of Phil because he knows he's BS-ing , he just wants to see if he can get a rise out of someone...so far Doc just smiles.....

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:21 pm

gyso,

Bob directed his post to me and I responded to him.
I already addressed this to Sam.
I am sure Sam will contact me or jeb if he feels he needs to, otherwise, you don't need to send the same message multiple times.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:28 pm

LA,

I think it is unfair to try to compare Phil with Red.
I, for one, don't have anywhere near enough information to compare the two. Looking at titles won or win/loss records is not very meaningful to me when it comes to Phil and Red. I have to put much stock in Sam's comments about Red and how he built the organization. In general, I don't like making comparisons if I never saw them coach/play.
I would rather have a discussion about Phil vs. modern day coaches.

by **bobheckler** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:42 pm

tjmakz wrote:LA,

I think it is unfair to try to compare Phil with Red.
I, for one, don't have anywhere near enough information to compare the two. Looking at titles won or win/loss records is not very meaningful to me when it comes to Phil and Red. I have to put much stock in Sam's comments about Red and how he built the organization. In general, I don't like making comparisons if I never saw them coach/play.
I would rather have a discussion about Phil vs. modern day coaches.

TJ,

I concur. Trying to compare eras, whether it be players or coaches, is inherently difficult. IMO, that is especially true with coaching pre vs post 1984, when the Collective Bargaining Agreement was implemented. That completely changed how GMs assembled teams and, therefore, what coaching staffs had to work with. A good example of this might be Sasha. He's untradeable and, since the Lakers are over the salary cap per the CBA, the cost of just cutting him and signing someone else who's better for them is prohibitive. This has a profound effect on the effectiveness of the Lakers bench and on the minutes Kobe is forced to play. Shannon Brown is doing an excellent job, but he's not a gunner like Sasha (when, of course, Sasha is shooting well and that has been, to be kind, unreliable). So, if Fisher is out with fouls and Kobe needs a breather, who's gonna play the outside gunner in the 2 of the triangle? That should be Sasha's job but he's not cutting it and that has a big effect on Phil's strategies and there's not much he can do about it because of the CBA.

bob

.

by **mrkleen09** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:49 pm

tjmakz wrote:
I love what Phil does with the referees. He stands up for his team and is looking to get the next close call. I don't think Phil is concerned about the way he 'looks' in discussing the foul calls.
I would love to hear Doc address the foul calls. If you feel you have been slighted or wronged, then speak up. Ray's 5th foul call in game 1 was terrible.
Don't look at free throw attempts as any indicator of refereeing. It is usually because of offensive aggressiveness.
LA did not lose that game because of foul calls. They lost because of Ray, Rondo and their own lack of execution down the stretch.
In the end, 1-1 is where this series should be.
At least all of the foul calls has not determined a game.

This is funny stuff here.

You "love" what Phil Jackson does with the refs and say he does it to help "get the next close call". Yet all that speaking up your coach did after game one resulted in what? A LOSS and him still crying after game 2.

On the flip you encourage Doc to do the same and "speak up" - especially since he had more than legitimate reasons to do so after the terrible officiating in game 1. However Doc doesn't take the Phil Jackson method - instead shuts his mouth and guess what he got for his lack of complaining? A WIN.

Yeah, lets emulate Phil with his pompous, holier than thou attitude - that seems to be working well.

by **swedeinestonia** Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:59 pm

That comment by Phil Jackson that they were "discussing it" is total bogus anyway.

I was watching the game again and there is over 2.5 minutes between Odoms second foul and his third in time passed (not effective game time), and no sign of substitution being made.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:16 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
I love what Phil does with the referees. He stands up for his team and is looking to get the next close call. I don't think Phil is concerned about the way he 'looks' in discussing the foul calls.
I would love to hear Doc address the foul calls. If you feel you have been slighted or wronged, then speak up. Ray's 5th foul call in game 1 was terrible.
Don't look at free throw attempts as any indicator of refereeing. It is usually because of offensive aggressiveness.
LA did not lose that game because of foul calls. They lost because of Ray, Rondo and their own lack of execution down the stretch.
In the end, 1-1 is where this series should be.
At least all of the foul calls has not determined a game.

This is funny stuff here.

You "love" what Phil Jackson does with the refs and say he does it to help "get the next close call". Yet all that speaking up your coach did after game one resulted in what? A LOSS and him still crying after game 2.

On the flip you encourage Doc to do the same and "speak up" - especially since he had more than legitimate reasons to do so after the terrible officiating in game 1. However Doc doesn't take the Phil Jackson method - instead shuts his mouth and guess what he got for his lack of complaining? A WIN.

Yeah, lets emulate Phil with his pompous, holier than thou attitude - that seems to be working well.

Please post where Phil said anything about the referees after game 1. You won't post anything because he didn't say anything.

So, Doc was rewarded for not saying anything? LOL.
Was this a W from the basketball gods?
I think most things are working pretty well for Phil...
If you want to judge him the day after a loss, go ahead.
Houlier than thou is on the verge of #11...
In a few years it could be 12, 13, 14....

by **beat** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:19 pm

Swede

Odom entered the game at the 3:06 mark of the first quarter.
He picked up the first foul at 1:21. Second at 0:56 and third only 23 seconds later at 0:33.
Now that is actual clock time not actual time, so your 2:30 May be right I just looked up the running stat sheet and there was some stopages between the 2 for sure but no timeouts are listed.

http://www.nba.com/games/20100606/BOSLAL/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0040900402#Q1

He stated in the press conference after the game he was discussing taking Odom out after the second but before he made a decision Odom had piciked up #3 a charge. Again Phil did have time to make a decision but his post game conference he definately referred to talking to others about it after the second foul. Something like "before I could get him out he picked up his third."

I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

beat

by **jeb** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:29 pm

Phil has had an incredibly Gump style well timed life. Maybe he will coach "king' james next. But last I checked number 11 just got a little tougher.

The Lakes will come right back at us. But we put a good sized dent in their armor last night and that felt real good.

For Phil to whine about the refs ...well I will just breathe deep and not say anything mean.

by **sinus007** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:31 pm

Hi again,
Since this thread has become sort of "Post-game", I'd like to mention one more event that played very important role in the end result. I'm talking about very timely sub NR for RR. Nate not only gave RR much needed rest but kept the team up and running. RR paid back with huge interest. Great move by Doc. Also, I think, it was a good move to insert SW: not a big deal but he saved 'Sheed, Perk or Garnet 2 fouls. Overall, Doc handled the game very well.

AK

by **beat** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:34 pm

TJ
You are just plain WRONG!

Regarding Phil

Here is the press conference after the game

http://www.nba.com/games/20100606/BOSLAL/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0040900402#Q1

At the 19 sec mark he questions the call against Bynum infering it was a questionable call.

at 2:20 he says "refs AGAIN won't allow us..................."
Phil certainly did directly talk about the refs but he has a between the lines way of doing it.

and SWEDE

at the 1:39 mark he talks about the Odom foul and stated he was talking to his "crew" wether or not he could play thru this when the third foul happened.

beat

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:35 pm

jeb65 wrote:Phil has had an incredibly Gump style well timed life. Maybe he will coach "king' james next. But last I checked number 11 just got a little tougher.

The Lakes will come right back at us. But we put a good sized dent in their armor last night and that felt real good.

For Phil to whine about the refs ...well I will just breathe deep and not say anything mean.

I don't see a Phil/LeBron connection. Maybe Bosh...
Tibs is probably the one that will have to answer to The King.

by **swedeinestonia** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:36 pm

1m45s after the second foul he has the chance to make a substitution when Gasol gets fouled by Wallace and is shooting free throws.

This is "time passed in the recording" so not game time.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:44 pm

beat wrote:TJ
You are just plain WRONG!

Regarding Phil

Here is the press conference after the game

http://www.nba.com/games/20100606/BOSLAL/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0040900402#Q1

At the 19 sec mark he questions the call against Bynum infering it was a questionable call.

at 2:20 he says "refs AGAIN won't allow us..................."
Phil certainly did directly talk about the refs but he has a between the lines way of doing it.

and SWEDE

at the 1:39 mark he talks about the Odom foul and stated he was talking to his "crew" wether or not he could play thru this when the third foul happened.

beat

beat,

What you posted was the game 2 highlights. Where are the Phil comments?
I know you misquoted Doc about Wooden earlier in this thread, so I can only assume that you posted the wrong url.

by **beat** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:49 pm

TJ

I'll try again

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/playoffs/2010/06/06/0040900402_lal_postsound1.nba/index.html

beat

by **beat** Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:51 pm

Of course you have to go thru the gatorade commercial

beat

And As far as I'm concerned this is MY las tpost to you PERIOD!

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:02 pm

beat,

I don't want to 'beat' a dead horse, but you are posting Phil's comments after game 2.
Below was my original request: (By the way, still no reply).

"Please post where Phil said anything about the referees after game 1. You won't post anything because he didn't say anything.

So, Doc was rewarded for not saying anything? LOL.
Was this a W from the basketball gods?
I think most things are working pretty well for Phil...
If you want to judge him the day after a loss, go ahead.
Houlier than thou is on the verge of #11...
In a few years it could be 12, 13, 14...."

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:05 pm

beat wrote:Of course you have to go thru the gatorade commercial

beat

And As far as I'm concerned this is MY las tpost to you PERIOD!

Stick with me at least through the free agent signing period this summer...

by **LACELTFAN** Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:16 pm

[quote="tjmakz"][quote="mrkleen09"]

tjmakz wrote:
Please post where Phil said anything about the referees after game 1. You won't post anything because he didn't say anything.

So, Doc was rewarded for not saying anything? LOL.
Was this a W from the basketball gods?
I think most things are working pretty well for Phil...
If you want to judge him the day after a loss, go ahead.
Houlier than thou is on the verge of #11...
In a few years it could be 12, 13, 14....

Being a math major tj, one thing I've learned is that you have to go through 11 to get to 12 and beyond..He's not there yet. In a few years, he may never get past 10....who knows. That wouldn't detract from his coaching ability...My earlier point was that Phil will probably get some shots taken at him on this board because at times the media has tried to equate him with Red...I don't think that goes over too well around here....just a guess...so I'd say relax, go with the flow...If the Lakers win this thing, I think you will see posters here stepping up and congratulating them and their fans...and so far, I still think the Lakers have a better than 50-50 chance...but we'll see which team shows up more focused for game 3.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:26 pm

LA,

Good points and good advice.
Never have MG, BSH or myself compared Phil to Red.
The media is only looking at numbers. It is just a story to them. Ten seconds after comparing Phil to Red, they will be talking about Strasburg or Jose Canseco...

Making personal derogitory remarks about Phil seems a little over the top.
I would love for someone to bash Kobe for the things that he deserves such as his press conference last night. Does he really need to have his fist against his chin like he was beyond bored or this was beneath him? Phil plays games with reporters, Kobe disrespects them.

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