The Official Ray Allen thread

[RosalieTCeltics]

Seems that Cleveland has targeted Ray as a top free agent signing choice. Ray was interviewed and said that he was going to wait until the big free agents made their choice before he considered a contract. He has been talking to the Celtics, but, from what I can tell, they have not matched what he wants and that is a three year contract.
No money has been mentioned, just years. He said that all negotiations have been cordial and that he will wait
to make his decision.

This makes me a bit nervous. I know that he is a key member of this club, and I feel it is necessary to sign him.
However, three years is a long time. But, what is out there????? Who can possibly take Rays place at the two spot? Certainly not TA. He is a great backup, not a starter, not a shooter, not a scorer. My head tells me one thing, my heart another. I think to lose Ray would be a big hole for this team. He is such a great teammate, someone the guys look up to. KG and Paul certainly would not be happy with this development either.

So....I will follow my heart....sign him....give him what he wants. Would you have traded Sam Jones at the end of his career? What about Havlicek?? He needs to stay a Celtic, he belongs on this club.

[Sam]

Of course they would not have traded Sam Jones. I would not have permitted it. Nor would he have gone elsewhere if free agency had been an option and he had been offered more money. Just like John Havlicek didn't leave when offered a lot more by the ABA.

Unfortunately, this is a different era with different values applicable. And I bet the Cavs are talking up the Cleveland Clinic to Ray.

Sam

[NYCelt]

Talent, conditioning and ability-wise Ray's probably a starter in this league for another two seasons and might have a third in the tank as reserve. He is still among the best shooters and one of the more well-rounded two guards available Pierce is taking less than he could for a reason and he knows first-hand who makes sense for the club. His expressed preference was to sign Ray and go after some bench strength. So we should sign Ray.

From there we do need some strength and youth on the bench in order to have the depth needed to rest our aging but talented starters and perhaps develop at least one future starter and core player.

Edit/P.S.; Sam and Rosalie; I hope you both had an enjoyable holiday weekend.

[RosalieTCeltics]

Thanks NY, I needed someone to agree with me. My son gives me such a hard time about Ray!

Thanks, it was a nice, restful, relaxing weekend. Looking forward to a week's vacation in two weeks, so they better make a decision about this before hand or I will drive my husband nuts!!!

[cowens/oldschool]

Ray is definitely a starter in this league,the question is can we win another championship with him?I bet if he went for 7 3's,like he did in game 6 of 08 Finals,in game 7 of this years Finals we would have won.If we can add some talented youth,even if they're 3 point game is not as great as Rays,we have to do it.I'd love to get a Josh Childress or Monta Ellis,don't know if its possible,maybe the rookie could miraculously step up.

[Sam]

Fine weekend, thanks. Once again, we were judges in the local parade. The bribes should keep us going for at least another few days.

Hope yours was good too, NYC and Rosalie.

Sam

[bigpygme]

i want Ray to stay a Celtic.

i guess i'm in the minority in seeing Ray as becoming a 6th man sometime soon, a la Hondo. he made a great effort defensively in LA and i thought it cost him his legs, and his offense consequently suffered.

his conditioning is still so strong, gets nothing but my respect, but he can't do both ends of the floor equally effectively anymore - at least, that's my view. the organization needs to carve out a role he can be ultimately successful at, and not just ask him to do EVERYTHING like they did in the Finals !

Glad everyone had a good 4th ... i did too, though i didn't collect the bonus dollars like Sam did !

Michael

[beat]

bigpygme

I agree with you I would have no problem with RA or even PP comming off the bench period. I know they are and can be starters still but coming off the bench makes sense, heck I'd do this for ANY of the starters from time to time. Sit KG to start a game. The other team will wonder what the heck is going on and we take advantage of that. Throw a wrench in the oppositions gearbox. They won't know whom to prepare for and as a side benefit more combinations can be checked out and in the case of injury we have had opportunity to see how to best fill in for it.

I know it's a proverbial "fart in a windstorm" chance of happening but I do like the idea and the season long benefit of it.

When I coached a 7th and 8 th grade team many years ago the old JV coach who coached me in hoops and running sports always kept one of his best 5 players on the bench to start a game. He did this for many reasons, some was to give another kid a chance to start but the big reason was he knew if things were not going well he could insert a player whom could go out there and make a difference. Now it wasn't always the same person but it worked quite well.
Now I'm sure some players on the NBA level might have problem handling this. But what if after 5-6 minutes a RA or a PP enters to spell a starter and then gets to go at it with fresh legs against someone whom might be a bit winded or better yet a bench player.

Makes all the sense in the world to me.

beat

[bigpygme]

love the train of logic in your suggestion, beat ... imagining RA coming off the bench actually warms my heart.
i think he has even better potential to be a real game changer that way, without spending 35 minutes or more playing tough nosed defense against some superstar.

glad you got my point and agree - we could have a little club, anyone can join but it'd still be little !

Michael

[sinus007]

Hi,
I hope RA stays in green. My understanding is that they disagree on duration of the contract: 2 vs 3 years? If RA goes elsewhere, who they gonna find to fill his shoes?

AK

[beat]

mike

Great minds think alike!!

well some of the time anyway.

Let some young buck take the edge off the "star" of the other team. Sort of a basketball version of rope a dope. ( and that worked pretty well for Mr. Ali!

beat

[RosalieTCeltics]

For a long time now I have been saying that I felt that Ray's career would be prolonged if he started coming off the bench. He brought stability to that second unit time and time again, and yet, being the threat that he is, no one could take him lightly.

Many people on the Celtics Blog have a different opinion of Ray. They felt that he let the team down in the final series. There is no way in heck that this happened. No one played harder than Ray at both ends of the floor, he played 45 minutes in the final game! He is not the scape goat for this team.

Bringing Ray back is a necessity. There is no one out there who can fill his shoes right now. Even Doc realizes his importance and says that his signing is as important to the Celtics as LeBron's is to who ever signs him. With that statement, there is no way they give him a two year contract. Give him three and get this thing over with. I have not read what kind of money they are offering him, but it is the years that seem to be the hold up.

[mulcogiseng]

It sure sounds good to hear people say they want Jesus to come back to the C's, but off the bench? Who starts? You don't replace a player of Ray's caliber with anybody and you certainly don't sit him on the bench unless there are better options available. I've been saying for the past year, bring Ray back for 3 years at around 10 million per. But he doesn't ride the bench unless there is a better quality player starting. I don't see that happening but ya never know.

[beat]

Mul

It really doesnt matter whom starts for the most part. RA will get minutes just love the idea of having firepower off the bench as I explained previously. and yeah I know it has zippo chance of happening. Better does not always have to start.
For several years Havlicek was our best all around player but did not start. McHale came off the bench early in his career (Max started)

I don't feel we would be replacing anything with RA off the bench. If anything we would be extending his ability to play at a higher level in more meaningfull minutes later in the game.


beat

[jeb]

mulco

how the health?

jeb

[bigpygme]

It sure sounds good to hear people say they want Jesus to come back to the C's, but off the bench? Who starts? You don't replace a player of Ray's caliber with anybody and you certainly don't sit him on the bench unless there are better options available. I've been saying for the past year, bring Ray back for 3 years at around 10 million per. But he doesn't ride the bench unless there is a better quality player starting. I don't see that happening but ya never know.

let's see what DA can come up with - he's pulled bigger tricks out of his sleeve !

always nice to be posting with you, Mulcogi-san.

Michael

[Sam]

The value of a starter has been kicked around a couple of times, so some of this is retreading ground. To those who feel it would be advantageous to have Ray and/or Paul come off the bench, I agree if one looks at it purely from the perspective of saving their legs.

But I think the situation deserves being looked at from another perspective as well. What's the importance of a starter? Red said it mattered more who finishes games. But, when he said that, Red had starters named Russell, Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn and either Loscutoff or Sanders. He had the luxury of having sixth men named Ramsey and later Havlicek. He had the luxury of bringing the Jones Boys off the bench. And he could have any of the ten of them in there at the end, depending on matchups, foul trouble, situational needs, etc.

I'm repeating myself here, and I may continue to do so until someone successfully refutes this theory. On a team with with a mix of veterans and younger guys, veterans are generally better initial barometers than younger guys in feeling out how the game is being played, the pace of the game, the opponents' strategies, how the game's being refereed, etc. Having a time-tested group of starters out there at the beginning provides a "norm" enabling Doc to can expedite his adjustments if he notes some deviation from the norm in the performance of his team. If he's got a starting combination he's not as familiar with, he's less quickly to be certain whether his team's performance is more due to what his team is doing or what the opposition is doing.

It's highly likely that 20% of the Celtics' starting combination will be missing as it is, at least for the first half of the season. Removing another 20% or 40% means the Celtics will have to be very fortunate to get out to fast starts or, conversely, to stop opponents from getting off to fast starts. It could certainly happen that the superior athleticism of younger replacements might miraculously spark the starting unit to perform better than older legs; but it's more likely that a starting lineup with diluted experience would just leave those older legs with ground to make up with they finally enter the game—which will probably take an inordinately heavy toll on those legs anyway.

I'd rather see Doc keep as much as possible of the starting unit intact and focus on relieving them with reserves sooner than has been the case in the past.

And, for those who are targeting Ray, in particular, as a possible off-the-bench guy, I hope you've figured out how to balance and space the floor for the starting unit in his absence...because I surely haven't. If you think opponents have been sagging off Rondo, you ain't seen nothing yet. Without a very dangerous perimeter player specialist out there, defenses are going to be more stacked than (fill in your favorite movie female).

Maybe Paul can be that perimeter guy, but they'd better find ways easier than the curl to free him up, because the curl would sap his energy, and his defender would usually be waiting for him at the end of it. And I don't see Paul settling for just becoming a perimeter specialist.

This is why I'll always say that it's all about the team. What may benefit one guy is less important than maintaining the integrity of the team system. In the past, one of the best weapons for both Rondo and KG, given the failure of a first option, has been the option of passing the ball out to the perimeter for a good-percentage open shot. They'll continue to need good second options among the starters, or they're going to find themselves constantly looking at serious deficits as the first and third quarters wear on.

Moreover, I'd rather see them present opponents with a half-court starting unit that will rely on finesse and experience and an up-tempo second unit that will come in earlier than in previous years and will have an opportunity to ramp up the tempo just when the opponents' starters are starting to get a little tired. More and more, opposing coaches have been leaving in their starters longer than the Celtics' starters. Let them pay the price of debilitation.

Sam

[beat]

Sam

With all respect I know that the veteran is a label like lots of things. The thing is these guys have been bouncing a ball for the better part of their lives.

This is the highest level of play of course but the game is still basically the same for the most part.

And to me having a weapon on the bench that can upgrade the current play on the court is important. Just love the options this could open up and mismatches it can create on our side.


I'm sure whatever happens Doc and Danny will take our advice!!

beat

[Sam]

Beat,

Now that I think about it, "experience" is probably a more appropriate term than "veteran."

Suppose Doc develops a second unit that really picks up the pace of the game. That kind of unit needs wings that can really move indefinitely. Would Ray be a more appropriate part of that unit or a more appropriate part of a more deliberate starting unit? Would his curls be as effective with a unit that is most effective in defensive disruption and transition or with a unit that habitually uses a lot of the shot clock in its possessions?

Sam

[beat]

Sam

I may not know a lot but we both know an uptempo game and getting a few more than a handfull of easy hoops is important. I Just remember Bird taking the ball out of the net, stepping out of bounds and throwing a length of the court pass to ainge or DJ for an easy "back at you hoop"

Just don't see that mentality anymore.

As for RA, he could play at whatever tempo is needed and it actually might even free him up a whole lot easier than the constant running off picks. The less time on the offensive set in order to get a good shot off gives the D less time to dig in and make it difficult.

beat

[Sam]

Beat,

I agree that it would be nice to see more taking the ball out of the basket and pushing it up. I don't think that's Ray's game. I think Ray needs to save his offensive running for curls.

Yes, less time in the offensive set does give the D less time to get set. But it also results in more possessions and a faster game. One could say that Ray would benefit from being a trailer, but easy finishes are more the objective of transition ball, with kickouts being a second option.

Show me a suitable replacement for Ray as a starter, and I'll rethink it. But don't show me anyone who's not deadly from outside.

By the way, I don't know whether you can see the game, but Gaffney's putting on a show in today's summer league game. He did very little yesterday but vowed to show a lot more today. He just threw down a transition flush (nice assist from Lafayette), is playing great defense, is 1-for-1 from 3-point land, made putbacks. At one point, it was Gaffney 6, Philly 0, and he's scored more since. The Russian center is in there now, and his first move was to block a shot by just raising his arms and never leaving the fllor. 15-8 Celtics right now. The Russian just jammed in a Harangody miss. Harangody's not hitting his shots but is rebounding like a dervish.

I didn't know that the Celtics players voted Gaffney and Lafayette full playoff shares. A really nice gesture, which has to leave both of the dying to make the Celtics this season.

While I've been typing, Philly has come back with nine straight points and is down only two, 17-15.

Sam

[beat]

Oh yeah Marcus and I are viewing it now, Gaffney is certainly NOTICABLE!

Loved him filling the wing and getting rewarded!

beat

[beat]

Vyacheslav Kravstov

SAM

What the hell would have Johnny Most done with that!!

Something like the "big Commie" comes to mind

beat

[Sam]

The Celts are now getting their heads handed to them. It's obvious they have very few plays. Basic high pick stuff, but, when they do roll (which is seldom), the pass always seems to be botched. 17-2 Philly in this quarter. A huge proportion of their shots are long jumpers.

Gaffney has quieted down except for rebounding. Lafayette continues to look good in any ways, but he is a turnover machine. I'm concerned about his court sense because he gets hiself into traps. Harangody finally makes a corner three but is 1-6. He's still rebounding well, though, and got a couple of freebies off an offensive board. Just made a great steal. He's going to have to find a way to play bigger than he is.

Down 6 at the half.

Sam

[RosalieTCeltics]

When I said that I felt Ray would be great coming off the bench, my thinking was not for the immediate future. It is absolutely true that he should still be a starter at this point in his career. However, if the Celtics were lucky enough to pick up a talent who could be developed into the starting role, the 6th man position would suit Ray fine. (Maybe he wouldn't think that, I don't know).

You are right when you say that someone with his experience should be on the floor when the game begins. There is so much talk about the length of a contract to be given him, that it could be one way to rationalize this. Am I explaining myself????

I am beginning to really believe that there is a strong possibility that some one is going to throw a contract at him that he just can't refuse. I would hope that he would then think about the possibility of being trade bait over and over again once they get what they want (or not) from him. There is more to life than money, especially when you have already made $160 million dollars.

Ray is valuable to Boston in many ways, and I hope he realizes this.

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