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Celtics Notes: Second Unit ‘Starting To Flow’ Entering All-Star Break
It was all about balance and the bench for Boston


NESN by Alexandra Francisco

It took a true group effort.

That’s been the case the last four games as the tides have changed, and the Boston Celtics have found ways to win and close out the first half of the season strong.

Thursday they earned a 132-125 win over the Toronto Raptors by way of a balanced offense and big night from the bench.

Boston trailed closely at the end of the third and fourth quarters, but without Grant Williams, Jeff Teague, Payton Pritchard and Robert Williams scoring the first 16 points out of halftime, it wouldn’t have been close. The unit finished with 22 of Boston’s 35 second-quarter points, and 51 total.

“I just think we’re a group of talented players that come off the bench and at any given night, anybody can score and I think that’s the beauty of our team,” Teague said in his postgame Zoom press conference.

“I think we’re starting to get some continuity … I feel comfortable with those guys and I think they’re starting to get comfortable with me,” he added. “I think the second unit is starting to flow a little bit.”

Part of that was Boston’s ball movement. After the six first-quarter turnovers, that is.

The Celtics had 25 team assists, but the playmaking got better as the game went on. Eight players, including four from the second unit, reached double-digit scoring.

“We have some guys that can really play individually 1-on-1, but that’s not only hard to sustain for 48 minutes and win, it’s just hard physically on guys. So I think that the more that we can cut, move, pass, make plays from one another — it just opens everything up for everybody,” coach Brad Stevens said after the game.

“I think we’ll get better at that as the season goes on,” he added. “But we need to keep doing what we’re doing and getting good play from our bench and get an assertive play when those guys when they check in.”

Here are some other notes from Boston’s win over Toronto:

— Credit where credit is due. The Raptors were good and showed a ton of grit despite having a roster basically decimated by COVID-19 health and safety protocols.

It started and ended with Kyle Lowry’s impressive 19 assists. Chris Boucher had a game-high 30 points off the bench for Toronto as it hit 21 shots from deep.

“Especially starting off slow, give credit to Toronto,” Jaylen Brown said in his media availability. “They play hard, man, and they made us earn it. And that was good going into the break, we needed that win. We picked it up in the second half but that was a good win for us.”

— Brown and Jayson Tatum found out they’ll be playing against each other in the 2021 NBA All-Star Game and had some great reactions.

— Tatum was asked about getting back from COVID-19 and had some interesting comments on the matter, updating media that he doesn’t feel completely normal.

“I’m not sure, you know, about back to normal,” Tatum admitted postgame. “I for sure feel better. And I did the first game. It’s a long process, you know, I talked the guys that said it took months for them to kind of catch their breath and get their wind back. And I think I’m kind of on the same track with that. I for sure feel better. I don’t feel, necessarily, the same (as) before I got it when I was playing. I definitely know there’s a difference but I feel pretty good.”

— Grant Williams took advantage of his time after a few healthy scratches of late.

He went 3-for-4 from the perimeter with 17 points, four rebounds and a steal off the bench. He described getting out of a recent mental funk.

“Especially in the past couple weeks, I think I was in my own head in the beginning and wasn’t really working as hard as I could have been,” Williams said. “So next thing you know, kind of just flipped the mantra and got back to how I used to and how I’ve worked my whole life. And I think it’s paid off, whether it’s through my three point shooting or just defensively.”

— Watching Stevens try and divvy up minutes between his three centers has been interesting this year.

Against Toronto, Daniel Theis started along side Thompson, but ultimately Thompson (13 points, and Robert Williams saw most of the minutes. Stevens explained that decision, noting how Raptors were going too small for Boston’s double-big lineup.

“Well I think anytime we can save Theis minutes, just because of the minutes he’s played the last two years, it’s a good thing. But tonight was just, you know, they were impossible to play with two bigs… We knew would probably go to that at some point, and then you just play in who in your gut you think can be most impactful.”

— Finally, the Celtics get to put their feet up until Thursday, March 11 when they travel to Brooklyn to face the Nets.

112288

Yep. When I saw the Raptors depleted list, there was only one name I was looking for not to play...Lowry. He almost killed us by himself.

It took a while for things to develop and for us to find our legs but in the end, TOR ran out of steam and we matched them basket for basket when it could have gotten away from us several times to keep the game close.

When we won the 3rd quarter, I knew something was up. We haven't done that consistently for a while.

This team can be scary. Still I like my word confounding but I'm going to have to think up a different word if things continue.
And since it's only the Nuggets, Suns and us coming into the AS Break with 4-0's to close out, I'd say things are looking up.

And guess what? Big Test waiting for us on the other side of the break. BKN. The only two games I remember involved having our asses served up on a platter. Both involved BKN. There was a 3rd against the Knicks...but it was the Knicks. Blind squirrel.

Unfortunately and fortunately, you look at the final score from last night's game and you ask where was the defense. But we held our own against a team that was shooting lights out from 3-ville at least until halftime.

We know defense wins championships, but if you are going to a shootout, you have better have the last bullet. In the NBA, that means you better have outscored your opponent with the 4th period clock runs out.

Tatum was unreal on some if not all of his shots. SMH but in a good way, more in "Did I just see what I thought I saw?" When his second contract runs out, DA needs to lock him down for life as a Celtic like Bird and Russell. Seeing him play alone is worth the price of LP Admission and I feel I should be paying double. Same with Brown, DA. PLEASE don't eff this up! You have one job!

If THAT bench shows up every night, OMG!! I know some of us are still waiting for the other shoe to drop from anywhere (myself included) but each game it's likelihood of falling gets a little less.

60.8% FG Percentage?!! You'll lose few if any games that way but give TOR credit and most to Lowry, Powell and Boucher.

Probably the most important thing will which come to the forefront immediately after the break is, we can hang and outscore/outlast teams that have lights out scorers and no defense. BKN decimated us twice already and I believe that was pre-Harden. Not going to dub it the game of the century but if we want to play in the sandbox, we have to take BKN out next Friday. And it will be in BKN so nothing will be sweeter.

Rick Flair said it best. "If you want to be the man, you gotta beat the man!!" Now is BKN the man? I personally don't think so as they will go the way of ALL playoff teams that have come before them that rely too much on shear volume of scoring to win most if not all of their games...watching the Finals from their living rooms. They are a house of cards in a tornado, IMHBAO. I can't wait for Harden to join the Barkley Club.

Do we belong in the Top 3 in the East or not? Is 4th the best we can hope for? We'll get somewhat of an answer to that after the break.

Dang Bucks won when they should have lost last night, too!

db

Untrue: "Boston trailed closely at the end of the third and fourth quarters, "

We won, duh!

Excellent post by DBrown.  I normally don't read other posts on the Post-Game threads before I get my own thoughts down on paper, so I'm not changing what I think I saw based upon what other people are saying they saw, my input is purely from me with any subsequent revisions being my thoughts tempered by other people's, but this time I did and it was good.

They lost in Detroit the night before, this was the 2nd game of a SEGABABA for them, they were missing half their roster and they still made it a good run.  Gotta give them tons of props for that, Lowry and Nurse had them ready to compete regardless.  No excuses.  If/when that happens to us I hope we respond as well.

And their legs did start to go in the 2nd half.  They were getting a step slower on defense, their shots not quite as sure.  The first half, though?  They were raining 3s.  11-22 from 3 in the first half, but 15-36 after 3, so 4-13 in the 3rd.  That's one reason why we won that quarter, they cooled off significantly.  Our defense also started to buckle down and play harder too.

Is Norman Powell available?  Probably not, but I've always liked him.

Lowry with 19 assists, 4 turnovers and non-stop complaining.  Imagine if Johnny Most was still alive and doing the game.  He'd be losing his mind listening to Lowry.  I remember when he went off on Billy Cunningham of the Sixers when he was the coach because he was always working the refs.

If Powell's not available, how about Boucher?  Danny wants "scoring with size", right?  Boucher with 30 points on 11-15, 5-9 from 3.  He's shooting >44% from 3 on the year.

Speaking of shooting well from 3, how about the return of the prodigal son Grant Williams?!  The man all but disappeared for weeks and came in last night and played a doozy.  17 points on 7-9, 3-4 from 3.  He's now shooting 43.3% from 3 too.  We tend to think of Grant as a strictly 3pt shooter, and half his shots are from 3, but his 2pt fg% is 51% and that's pretty good.  Now trade him and Javonte Green for Boucher.

It's been a while since Grant Williams had, and earned, a highlight film.  Credit where/when credit is due.



Kemba saved our asses in the first half, 15 points on 4-8, 5-5 from the line and then almost lost it for us in the 2nd half.  He ended up 4-11, that's 0-6,  and had 3 turnovers in the 2nd half.  Credit, he did take some charges and played hard, just inefficiently.

Jaylen is completely exhausted.  He's stumbling around like a drunk at Happy Hour, really out of control.  Seriously.  No legs, zero.  He rallied in the 2nd half, there's no denying his heart and competitiveness, but physically you can stick a fork in him.  He had 1 point in the 1st half.  One.  He was 0-3, hit one frito out of two.  His 2nd half was a 20 point beauty, 4-8, 2-5 from 3 and 10-15 from the line.  10-15 sucks from the line but without all those ftas we might have lost this game.  He was picking himself up off the floor a lot.

Teague wants to stay in Boston.  While I've been down on him for a while I have to give him credit for being one of the veterans who said "Basta!" and started to play with some Pride after we hit rock bottom.  Teague, Kemba and Thompson have all played aggressively over the past 4 games and were major factors in our, now, 4-game win streak.

The PP-RW connection lives on.  They have great chemistry.  The formula is so simple, so basic, so obvious and so effective.  It worked for Capela in Houston, it's working for him in Atlanta too.  Match a rim-rocking pnr big with a ballhandling penetrator.  Set a high pick and roll to the front of the iron.  The penetrator turns the corner and forces the big's defender to make a choice, stay with his man or stop the ball.  Both decisions are bad ones.  Danny needs to find us another player like that.  I would have thought Tremont Waters would be good at this but he's not showing something in practice.

RWill with a good game.  10 points, 7 rebounds, 3 of them offensive and 3 blocks in 23 minutes.  That's where he needs to be, around 22-24 minutes.  Those are solid rotation minutes, long enough stints that he can find a rhythm and pace.  A beautiful pocket pass by RWill on a give-and-go to Teague at about :30 of the highlight film.  In the next highlight sequence he blocks a shot on the baseline and then runs the floor baseline-to-baseline, to lead the fast break.  THIS is what you want to see a big do.  Take care of business on the defensive end and then run, baby, run.  One thing to notice regarding the advances in RWill's game is how wide his stances are on picks.  He's not late making them anymore and when he sets his feet are wide, making it harder for the ball's defender to stay with his man.



This game was close not only because of their torrid 3pt fg%, and because 50 of their 91 fgas were 3s (wow) but also because we only took 74 fgas.  That's a 17 fga difference and that's HUGE.  On the other hand we took 40 ftas vs 17 for them.  That's a 23 fta difference and that's IMMENSE.  A very strange game, indeed.  They couldn't miss from 3 and we were actually getting whistles.  I don't doubt the Comments From The Other Side will be bemoaning the fta differential, they do anyway, but a lot of our whistles came from the difference in the quality of players (they were playing without their top players) and because their legs were dying so they were a step slow getting into place.  Nick Nurse only played 8 players despite being down a ton of players and being SEGABABA.  Brad went 10 deep.  4 Celtic bench players played > 20 minutes.  Two of Nurse's bench played over 30.  Powell played 37 minutes, Lowry played 40, Stanley Johnson played 36.  In the first game of the SEGABABA vs Detroit Powell played 38 minutes, Lowry 35 and Johnson played 18.  Boucher played 25 vs Detroit and 35 last night.  Those are heavy minutes.

It has been a while since we've had a 4 game winning streak.  Feels good and I don't care about their injury/COVID depletions or SEGABABAs are any of that shit.  Kemba doesn't even play SEGABABAs.  Jaylen's knee is sore.  Smart has been out since the end of the last Ice Age.  Sorry, little sympathy here.  Besides, we needed these wins heading into the ASG.

Last night was Brad Stevens' 600th game as the Celtics head coach.  His career record is 337-263, 50.7%.  If you take out his rookie season, the one where Danny handed him a busted roster at the beginning of a full-blown teardown-and-rebuild, his record is 312-206, 60.2%.  That's not too shabby, especially when you remember his sophomore year roster was not a whole lot better (Luigi Datome, Jeff Green, Sully at 5, Tyler Zeller.  Tayshaun Prince and Datome came in mid-season, as did IT and Jae Crowder) and certainly not stable as Trader Danny went hog-wild.  22 different players wore the green that year.  That team sneaked into the playoffs with a 40-42 record, an improvement over the previous year's 25-57.  Take BOTH of those seasons out of the picture, because Danny was F-ing with Brad's roster, and Brad's record over his last 5+ seasons is 272-164, 62.3%.

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401267712


Bob


.

Thank you, BobH and +1 to yours. Excellent post! Yes, finally we got some whistles!!

Also note that with TOR 25 fouls we shot at the line 40 times, a 1.6 ratio, which implies we were getting fouled mostly in the act. I wasn't counting the And 1's last night but I know there were at least a couple.

We don't get to the line 40 times in a week, much less one game.

db

Just like Bob I tend to post my comments and then go back and see what other have to say.

Not this time I had to read db's take on this one. Just think if we made a few more freebies we could have covered the spread

We went 4-0 and had more positives than negatives.

Hats off to Grant Williams, my usual whipping boy for all that stinks about the Celtics. He is still no legit center but his consistency in knocking down open catch and shoot opportunities this year has been excellent.

I thought our perimeter defense really was non existent. It was almost comical. Jeff Teague who also had a solid game on offense was just standing around and everytime they shot and made a 3 he would raise his arms up, open palms waste high like "what happened, why didn't somebody pick him up"?

A few more points about Brad's record that I just looked up.  

Regular Season

2015-2016 through 2020-2021 Season-to-Date
Coach......................Wins...........Losses.........Winning %
Brad Stevens............272............164.............62.3%
Gregg Popovich.........273............158.............63.3%

In 2015 Pop won 67 games.  He had Parker, Manu, Mills, Aldridge, Danny Green, Kawhi and Tim Duncan.  That's a damn good team.  They lost in the WC SEMI-finals.  They didn't even make it to he Conference Finals.

In 2016 Pop won 61 games.  He lost in the Conference Finals to GSW, who won 67 games that season and went on to win the Championship.  He lost Duncan but he still had Kawhi, Manu, Parker, Green, Aldridge and Pau Gasol.


Playoffs, last 5 years

Coach..................Missed Playoffs...1st Round Exit....WC Semis Exit....WC Finals Exit...Finals Appearances
Brad Stevens........0......................1.......................1.......................2....................0
Gregg Popovich.....1......................2.......................1.......................1....................0


Everybody's jumping on Brad, and yet, the record of the greatest coach of the modern era is almost identical.  Brad made it to the EC Finals in 3 of the 5 seasons that have made it to the playoffs, this current season isn't there yet, and to the Semis in the other 2 of them.  The great Pop, and I say that without even the slightest trace of sarcasm, had one fewer WC Finals appearance and one more 1st round exit.


Bob


.

With 4 straight games the league has taken notice.

Robert Williams III has arrived on time.

Last night he played in his 29th game.  Last season he played in 29 games.  The upside that I saw when he was drafted has revealed itself in unmistakable terms.

As his MPG have increased so has his production.  His consistent play is a direct reflection on him getting consistent minutes.  I do not know how many times I have said this but repetition is the tool for consistency.

The 4 game sample size is small by any measure but the production we are seeing is consistent with his production even when he was playing short minutes.  He has always been a 70% FG shooter.  

During this impressive 4 game stretch robs is averaging 10.5 PPG, 8 rebounds and 2 block shots.  Throw in his 2.8 assists and great play up top in setting screens and making handoffs and finding open guys on the perimeter.  Last night he made a perfect bounce pass from up top to find a cutter going to the rim for an easy layup.  

Robs quickness and athleticism at his position is a game changer.  He plays in the clouds.  He has great hands, great timing and the length to rebound away from his position.  

How does his ascent reshuffled our perception of teams needs at the all important center position.  Brad has been rotating 3 centers and has often played with two bigs with one at the 4.  DT leads the centers with 9.3 PPG while playing 24.3 minutes.  Thompson plays 22.8 minutes while scoring 7.9 PPG and 8.3 rebounds.  I declare that Robert Williams is the best overall big man on this team.  

Now the prospect that he could be moved to acquire Vucevic has raised its' head.  If Danny were to make this move it would be a big mistake.  Vuc is a primetime center.  He is a great scorer and rebounder and is most definitely an upgrade over what we have now.  his main weakness...he is not a rim protector.

Danny could have and should have went after him instead of Kemba Walker.  

I truly believe that the Celtics can compete with our 3 headed center concept provided Brad Stevens plays Rob at least 20-22 MPG.  He's the missing link to what ails our center position.  

And we need to add a veteran 3/4 scorer, rebounder and defender to the mix.  

With respect to Kemba Walker, Danny should make every reasonable effort to trade him.  He looks healthy now over several games so his value has stabilized.  

There is a good chance that Danny does not pull the trigger on a big trade before the deadline.

My keeper list:

Jayson, Marcus,  Jaylen, Rob, Peyton, and Daniel in absence of a 5 who can stretch the floor a bit with his shot making abilities.

With all do respect, comparing Brad to coach Pop is absurd. Coach Pop has how many titles? There is winning and then there is really winning and we should not confuse the two of them.

Looking at tidbits of information without looking at the total body of works lacks some degree of confidence.

POP is 3rd all time in wins and has 5 championships.

There are 13 current NBA coaches that have a higher winning percentage than Stevens. Stevens is currently ranked 52nd overall in winning percentage.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/NBA_stats.html

Brad is a good coach but he is not a great coach.

dboss wrote:With all do respect, comparing Brad to coach Pop is absurd.  Coach Pop has how many titles?  There is winning and then there is really winning and we should not confuse the two of them.

Looking at tidbits of information without looking at the total body of works  lacks some degree of confidence.

POP is 3rd all time in wins and has  5 championships.

There are 13 current NBA coaches that have a higher winning percentage than Stevens.  Stevens is currently ranked 52nd overall in winning percentage.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/NBA_stats.html

Brad is a good coach but he is not a great coach.  

dboss,

He is also a new coach.  He was never an NBA assistant coach, so he has none of that OJT.  Pop was an assistant coach  for 2 years in GSW and an assistant coach in San Antonio for 4 years.  There's 6 years of NBA coaching experience.

In order to compare Pop's overall career to Brad's we'd have to wait a while.  Brad's been a coach for 8 seasons and Pop's been one for 25 (plus those 6 years as an assistant).  Also, we should probably take into account that Pop had #1 picks, and HOFers, David Robinson and Tim Duncan.  2 of his 5 Championships happened with both of those players together.  So, put another way, 3 of Pop's rings came starting in his 8th year as a head coach and without those two players.  He won 3 with Duncan, but without Robinson.  Tim Duncan was a game changing big.  He has not won any without at least one of those two players.  Even if we compare Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown to David Robinson and Tim Duncan, I don't know if that's fair either, then let's see how Brad does now that those two are starting to get past their respective learning curves.

And as far as Brad's winning % vs other coaches:

Larry Bird has a higher winning %, as a coach.  He coached 3 years.
David Blatt, the poor guy who got run out of Cleveland by LeBron after 1 1/2 seasons, has a higher winning percentage.
Steven Nash is an active coach with a higher winning percentage than Brad.  This is his first season as a head coach and look at the team he was handed.

Here's the active list, of coaches with better winning % than Brad:
Steve Kerr (Curry, Durant and Thompson)
Nick Nurse (3 years coaching, total, had Kawhi.  Kawhi's gone and now look at them)
Pop (Robinson and Duncan for 2; Duncan, Parker, Manu and Kawhi for the other 3)
Steve Nash (Kyrie, Durant, Jordan, Harden)
Tyronn Lue (LeBron, Kyrie and Love; PG13 and Kawhi)
Billy Donovan (Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams at OKC.  Is shit in Chicago now)
Spoelstra (LeBron, DWade and Bosh)
Mike Budenholzer (Giannis.  Look at his record in Atlanta and he had 1 really good year)
Thibs (made the playoffs 1 season out of 3 in Minny.  1 Finals, 2 Semi, 1 1st round in Chicago.  20 years as an assistant coach with 6 different teams.  On his 3rd team as a HC)
Doc (KG, Pierce and Allen; Kawhi, PG13 and DeAndre Jordan; Embiid, Simmons)
Quin Snyder
Stan Van Gundy (are we really comparing the Master of Disaster to Brad?)
Brad Stevens

We have a list here of coaches who had dominating players, and some coaches who didn't have dominating players and didn't have great post-season success (let's see how Quin Snyder and Utah do this year).  Brad has two, still very young, up-and-coming players.  Kyrie was a false prophet and Kemba missed the first 2 months of this season.  Gordon left, but that's because he wanted to be the centerpiece of the team and that wasn't happening with the Js.  It's Gordon's team in Charlotte and that's what he wanted.  So, the team that Danny put together for Brad blew itself up because Kyrie's drama and Gordon's injuries and ambition.  Maybe if Kyrie had resigned Durant would have come to Boston.  What would we be saying about Brad (and Danny) now then?

And there are 337 coaches on that list, total.  If Brad Stevens is 52th all-time that puts him in the 85th percentile.  There are 11 coaches on that list above him that only coached for 1 year.  I don't know why they lost their jobs, but their stellar record is based upon a 1 year snapshot.  Take them out and Brad's 41 out of 326,  87th percentile.  There are another 5 that only coached for 2 years.  Another small sample size.  Take them out and Brad's 36 out of 321, 89%.  I know, all these numbers can put you to sleep, but what's clear is that Brad is damn close to getting an 'A' for his winning % once you start looking at coaches who coached 3 years or more.

Rick Carlisle has a lower winning % than Brad Stevens.  Carlisle has a ring.  Championships are team awards and teams include players as well as coaches.  


Bob


.

But, I criticize Brad often, but thrse stats speak very well for Brad.

The bottom line for me is and always will be winning championships. This may not happen right away so there should be adequate opportunities for a coach to get there. When Brad takes a team to the big dance and wins then I can see comparisons that have some relevance.

Otherwise Brad is just another NBA coach. Nothing special, nothing profound and nothing new.

Hey, Lob City is now available!! All you can eat for $75 Mil!!

db

dboss wrote:The bottom line for me is and always will be winning championships.  This may not happen right away so there should be adequate opportunities for a coach to get there.  When Brad takes a team to the big dance and wins then I can see comparisons that have some relevance.

Otherwise Brad is just another NBA coach.  Nothing special, nothing profound and nothing new.

dboss,

Doc has won 1 Championship in 21 years of coaching.  He was the All-Star coach 3X, which means his team had the best record in their conference at the All-Star break 3X, and he's won the Championship only 1X.  He was a head coach in Orlando for a little over 4 years and never won more than 44 games.  Not particularly impressive.  He came to Boston and won a total of 102 games in 3 years.  That's an average of 34 wins/year.  Even less impressive.  Then Trader Danny pulled a couple of rabbits outta his ass and Doc won 66 games and a Championship in 2007-2008.  Did he suddenly become a great coach, or did he then have killer talent?  He went on to LAC for 7 years and didn't make much noise, although he had good winning %.  Now he's in Philly, with great talent again, and he's a "great coach" again.

Everybody wants Championships, there isn't a coach or player in any league in any sport that doesn't, but with only rare exceptions (e.g. 2003-2004 Detroit Pistons, '69 Miracle Mets) does coaching alone overcome seriously flawed rosters.


Bob


.

bobh

You are not going to like this but your are as wrong as two left.  

First of all, The Yoyo Master was never my favorite Celtics coach.  But he did win a championship and took the Celtics to 2 finals.  This is not about Doc Rivers.  This is about monkeying around with coaching records and presenting an absolutely absurd side by side comparison between Pop and Brad in an effort to some how prove that Brad is actually a better coach than he has PROVEN to be.

So yesterday on the broadcast they had a chart showing most wins by Celtics coaches and Brad is now 4th on the list.  If you take a look there are 2 things that stand out.  5 of the 6 top Celtics coaches in total wins have two things in common.  They all have won a championship and all 5 of them have better regular season and playoff win percentages than Brad Stevens  I would not my spend time comparing Brad to Pop because Brad has yet to even measure up to the excellence associated with winning of 5 other Celtics coaches (plus Russell.  You have to get there to be there.  Brad is not there yet and may never get there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/coaches.html

wins

1. Red
2. Tommy
3. Doc
4. Brad
5. KC
6. Bill Fitch

dboss wrote:bobh

You are not going to like this but your are as wrong as two left.  

First of all, The Yoyo Master was never my favorite Celtics coach.  But he did win a championship and took the Celtics to 2 finals.  This is not about Doc Rivers.  This is about monkeying around with coaching records and presenting an absolutely absurd side by side comparison between Pop and Brad in an effort to some how prove that Brad is actually a better coach than he has PROVEN to be.

So yesterday on the broadcast they had a chart showing most wins by Celtics coaches and Brad is now 4th on the list.  If you take a look there are 2 things that stand out.  5 of the 6 top Celtics coaches in total wins have two things in common.  They all have won a championship and all 5 of them have better regular season and playoff win percentages than Brad Stevens  I would not my spend time comparing Brad to Pop because Brad has yet to even measure up to the excellence associated with winning of 5 other Celtics coaches (plus Russell.  You have to get there to be there.  Brad is not there yet and may never get there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/coaches.html

wins

1. Red
2. Tommy
3. Doc
4. Brad
5. KC
6. Bill Fitch

I think bob was just showing some interesting coincidences and stats more than claiming Brad is near Pop as a coach. In the all time coaching hierarchy everyone knows Brad couldn’t even come near Pops jockstrap....

Don't overlook Russ as a coach.

dboss wrote:bobh

You are not going to like this but your are as wrong as two left.  

First of all, The Yoyo Master was never my favorite Celtics coach.  But he did win a championship and took the Celtics to 2 finals.  This is not about Doc Rivers.  This is about monkeying around with coaching records and presenting an absolutely absurd side by side comparison between Pop and Brad in an effort to some how prove that Brad is actually a better coach than he has PROVEN to be.

So yesterday on the broadcast they had a chart showing most wins by Celtics coaches and Brad is now 4th on the list.  If you take a look there are 2 things that stand out.  5 of the 6 top Celtics coaches in total wins have two things in common.  They all have won a championship and all 5 of them have better regular season and playoff win percentages than Brad Stevens  I would not my spend time comparing Brad to Pop because Brad has yet to even measure up to the excellence associated with winning of 5 other Celtics coaches (plus Russell.  You have to get there to be there.  Brad is not there yet and may never get there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/coaches.html

wins

1. Red
2. Tommy
3. Doc
4. Brad
5. KC
6. Bill Fitch

dboss,

From top winning percentage, which is what I thought we were talking about, to worst:

K.C. Jones and Bill Fitch had the best front court in the history of basketball.
Red was Red.
Russell is the greatest winner in the history of sports, not just basketball.
Tommy had Cowens, Havlicek, JoJo and Don Nelson, all HOFers.
Doc had Pierce, KG and Ray.
Jimmy Rodgers only coached 2 seasons and is generally considered NOT a good coach.
Brad.

Other than Jimmy Rodgers I would expect Brad, and almost every other coach in the NBA except Pop, to be behind KC, Fitch, Red, Russell and Tommy. Brad's winning percentage isn't too far behind Doc's. Doc's winning percentage was nothing to write home about until after Danny traded Wally, Delonte and a #5 pick for Ray Allen and Al Jefferson etal to Minny for KG. That's when he started winning.

You're comparing 44 year old Brad Stevens to legends and saying "he's ok" because he's not them. Well, yeah, few are. The first 5 coaches on this list are in the HOF as coaches.


Bob


.

Are we going to dub Steve Nash as a great coach when BKN goes all the way this year?  (I know, haha, but you get my point!)

Was Norm Sloan a great coach at NC State with the David Thompson loaded '73-'74 team?  Maybe but the two sides of the argument (players and coach contribution to the mix) raise an interesting point.  Yes, you need an objective coach to win any championship.  None have been won without one.  Even Russ as the elusive Player/Coach, which might be the most amazing feat of all time.  Do you realize the powers of intelligence, observation and concentration required to pull that off much less win a championship?  When people of high importance eff up, we say, "You had one job!"  Bill had two high level jobs and still pulled it off FLAWLESSLY.  But I digress.  

I believe Brad will join those on that Celtic coaches list with at least one championship, but the prerequisite hidden in that list as you have pointed out is championships won.  Brad's time has not come yet.  He's getting the horses in the barn.  Players like each other and are finally starting to play well together.  That's a huge intangible we overlook or take for granted.

Some people, like Nash, walk into a golden opportunity, like it or not.  My comment is "Well, hell, I could have coached THAT team to a title!!"  Others, like Brad, are still trying to prove themselves but Danny took his chances on him fresh out of college coaching just like NBA teams do with the one and doners.  And unless you are Pop, the chain is a lot shorter in the NBA.  And the hot seat gets a lot hotter much faster.

There is a range on this argument between the precise combination of talent on the floor and talent at the coaching helm.  It is the task of both to determine the proper mix that will lead to a championship.  One of the things I love and hate at the same time is you won't know if the organization as a whole (players and coach particularly) made those right choices or achieved the right mix/blend until it is too late and you are bowing out of the playoffs much earlier than expected or not even getting an invite to the playoff dance.

Looking back at Norm Sloan's record of achievement, I was only aware of his stint at NC State.  But he knew exactly what he was doing and deserves far more elevated status for what he did at NC State than I give him.  It took him 8 years there to win the NCAA champion and would have won it twice if it weren't for probation in 72-73 season.  They were undefeated that year if I recall but could not advance to the ACC Tournament nor NCAA because of recruiting violations.  Of course Bill Walton, Jamaal Wilkes and UCLA will see that differently but you see my point.  

Right now, Brad is accumulating wins.  You have to win first before you win championships.  Brad is a very good coach but in the eyes of Celtic fans will not be a great coach until he starts winning championships.  Like it or not, that's what Brad signed up for and he knows it.  He's still got to get the Butler monkey off his back.  While those days are a faded memory to most all, it is his burning desire to right that ship of missing the big prize by inches.  

I say the same thing about LeBron and he proves it every year.  "Well, hell, my family team would make it to the Finals every year if I had LeBron on it.  You don't even need a coach for his teams!!"  And that's pretty much true.  You can't tell me that ol' Frank "Pull me out of obscurity" Vogel burns the midnight oil like Brad does.  Please, don't insult me with a comeback.  Was he in the right place at the right time?  ABSOLUTELY!  

The key lies in the mix between players and coach.  We argue on this site all the time about that mix.  Matter of fact it may be the only thing we really talk about.  It infiltrates every argument made here pretty much.  

Sam used to call it synergy - the interaction or cooperation of two or more organization, substances or agents to produce a combined effect greater the the sum of their separate effects.

WOW!  That's EXACTLY what we are talking about here!  That's what ALL Celtic championship teams had.  You won't lose ANY championships once you figure that out.  

Some will say Brad short circuited the the NBA system coming right out of college to coach one of the greatest professional organizations in sports.  He didn't work his way up through the ranks.  Sound familiar recently?  Well, he's put in his time in the NBA.  Winning the real prize is very close.  What if he and we pull it off THIS season?!!  What if we come out of the break, beat the ever-loving crap out of BKN and steamroll all the way to and through the playoffs?!  This all may be a lot closer than we think.        

db

Db, I am so with you on this ...for thevrest of the season I will be rooting for Brad and these Celts to be the best they can be en route to #18.

Thanks for edifying Russ. He gets way too little credit for his coaching us to championships.

worcester,

The more I think about this, let's extend the argument.  Phil Jackson?  Good very player from what I recall, but a far, far better coach.  I would even go on to say on the same level as Red.  How did Phil do it?  What was his balance he value-added to the mix?  What was/were his intangible(s) outside of the X's and O's of the triangle offense which really wasn't his, he just took it to the next level?

I submit to you it was his ability to handle and massage very large egos making way more than him as a coach yet the players being subservient to him.  I think he may be the best at that than anyone I've ever seen.  Red didn't have to do too much of that since the players in his era were truly subservient to the system and those above them.  Plus they didn't make squat in those days.

All Vogel has to do?  Make sure he doesn't get cute and eff it up.  That's really it.  He probably speaks to LeBron quite a lot.  That's where you and I could probably coach the Lakers as currently constructed to a championship.  The Lakers know their percentage of Finals visits to Finals championships...about 50%.  

Same thing for Steve Nash although the pressure is really more on him than anyone.  He comes up short of a championship this season, he will be vilified.  And the earlier the exit, the more vilified he will be.  

Doc?  Not sure where he is.  Did someone here call him the Yo-Yo Coach?  If so, that is quite an appropriate description.  If (and when he comes up short this season) he will still have a job.

Luc?  Clips are the Clips.  Luc's won a championship as a coach.  I think he is OK.  While the Clips are expecting a lot, they aren't expecting a lot.  

What does Brad have to do or bring to the table outside of the X's and O's which I believe there is a consensus amongst all that his is great at those?  

Personally I believe whatever this is has been growing like an 8 year flower that is about to open up into something totally amazing and striking that none of us will believe it when we see it.

He has a very calm demeanor that translates to his team.  We still don't panic even in defeat.  Never seen it happen.  That is a very big deal.  This will be the end of BKN this year.  They will implode and start finger pointing when the wheels wobble. BKN is kidding themselves with all the time management bs and Kyrie being all calm, etc. They are going to get to the playoffs just like we did last year with all our injuries and lack of playing time together and it's going to be the most embarrassing, humiliating implosion of all time in the NBA. They may even pull and 80's Detroit move and walk off the court before the end of a game or the series that takes them out. Oh PLEASE, PLEASE let us be that team!!
 

Brad also seems to promote camaraderie and respect publicly and behind the scenes more than likely breaks bread with the team and individually quite OFTEN.  He has to because the players listen to him like no other team.  They never speak a damaging word about him publicly and privately.

Brad is still coach and the players respect him for that.  But a lot is coming together (or needing to come together) here all around very soon in the Boston organization.  The leash is getting shorter everyday.  Can't wait for next Friday!  

As for Russ, that chaps my a$$ more than anything.  I'll keep that up until the rest of the world sees him that way.  I know I'm preaching to the choir.  I'd like to shake his hand one day and just have lunch but I know those days are numbered.  I really wish I had been born just a couple of years earlier than I was.  But the NBA was not national in TV scope at that time anyway and I lived nowhere near Boston or an NBA city in the 70's growing up.

That's the intangible(s) I see so far from Brad.  Is that going to be enough or is there more to come from him on this.  He needs to balance both to win it all.  It's not more X's and O's that is going to get him to a championship.  It's the intangibles now.  

The other day, I told my daughter who will be a freshman in college this fall that your initial success in college will hinge upon how quickly you master the speed and pace of college versus high school no matter how smart you are.  Everyone in college deserves to be there and is as smart if not smarter than you.  You will also think that you have to study your behind off and if things don't go well in that first semester, MORE study is the answer...It's not.  It's all about the mix.  College classes, exams, passing courses, majoring?  It's all the drone in the background.  IMHBOA, it's less far less than 50% of the equation.  The rest is about how you live your life among your peers all by yourself with the support net from your parents cut out from beneath you.

Brad's taken 8 years to get to be the most highly respected coach in the NBA for the X's and O's.  He's gotten to the ECF 3 out of 4 years.  He's doing something right.  But there is the intangible piece that the Steven A. Smith's of the world have brought into question and rightfully so.  It's time.  "It's Showtime to the Brooklyn people!"  (Another easy one for those who's prime was in the 80's!)  

db

I did not mention Big Bill Russell because he did not coach a long time and therefore he is not up there in terms of total wins as a Celtics coach but he also had a great regular season and playoff resume.  It is all about winning percentage.

Bob you are the one to make reference to Brad and did it by comparing him to POP.  

I mentioned former Celtics coaches because as a Celtics fan that is a legit point of reference for  comparison.  How those guys coached.  What their philosophies where and how that translated into winning or losing.  

I can only judge that which has happened.  Brad is in year 8 so he is no longer a wet behind the ears coach.  When he takes a team to the title and wins then he deserves the accolades.  Otherwise he is just another good coach but not a winner.

dbrown,

I don't believe many here will agree with your take on Phil Jackson, especially when you compared him to Red.

He fell into a team that had Jordan.  Then he fell into a team that had Kobe.  My as of yet unborn grand-daughter could have coached teams with those two players to the same level of success.  

His use of the triangle offense only worked because he had those two players.  As a GM, when he forced it on the Knicks it turned out to be a horrible failure.

On another topic, something I learned in college:  When I goofed off for most of the semester and tried to make it up in the last few weeks, I ended up with the worst grades in my life.  After that, I always poured myself into my homework and studies early in the semester and then coasted at the end.  Work and then play, not the other way around.

gyso

dboss,

Your words are tough but true specifically in the Celtic realm.  No other teams barring the Lakers can jump in that ring, no pun intended.  It is tough for anyone outside of Celtic or Lakers fans to comprehend why we are so relentless in the one caveat.  

It is probably the #1 reason why we are "hated" so much by all other teams, even including the Lakers, although we respect them off the court as much as they respect us.  (Personally I believe being "hated" is a backdoor form of respect but you will never have anyone outside of the two franchises admit it.)  Both franchises are winners far beyond the call of duty and to the great misunderstanding of the rest of the league and sports world in general.

As for us here on this site, all we are doing is debating.  The respect is already assumed and imputed upon all who come here as we have a very solid mutual interest.

True, Brad has been here 8 years.  I believe Steven A. was right to pose the question he did a couple of weeks ago about Brad in a large public forum.

Just think for a second if Brad as a coach is on the same trek as LeBron the player.  I know, let me finish!  No one is going to remember LeBron's first 8 years in the league.  But he got very good at playing basketball.  Then he quit on Cleveland since they weren't going to set up a championship for him.  

Brad has gotten so good at the X's and O's that pretty much none will dispute this ability across and throughout the league top to bottom.  This is a pretty safe statement to make in light of the fact that he has yet to hang a banner.  Brad wants nothing to do with that.  He wants the Banners.    

Both LeBron had and Brad has nothing in the form of championships after 8 years.  Would we kill to have Brad's record match LeBron's annual trip to the Finals after Year 8...knowing the Celtics historical record once we get to the Finals?

I'm not saying these two people's career paths are even remotely related but just to think about it.  Both came into the league probably too early.  Both had some catching up to do.  Both paid their dues.  Both looked pretty average after 8 seasons.  But both honed their craft up to that point and became very specialized.  

How about this?  What if in the end Brad winds up being a better more successful championship coach than...Red?  Red would LOVE it!  We would all be beside ourselves!!  The Lakers would never catch up with us for at least another 300 years!!  Magic would be devastated!!  (You know he's waiting for the Lakers to win it this year and finally pass us.  He's got his speech already prepared.  He's been working on it since the 80's.)  He'd be livid beyond imagination!!  

No pressure again, but I think this all starts next Friday.  That one game versus the new fabricated bullies on the East block.  We need to go into their house and rip them a new one.  And I don't mean win by one point or 5 or 10.  I mean win by 40...by halftime. They don't come out for the second half.  They forfeit.  Punch back as hard as they have hit us.  Show them they have so far to go to even sniff a championship that their wheels come off right then and there.  Show them we not only deserve to be in the East Sandbox, but that we ARE the sandbox.  

Again, losing that game does absolutely nothing for us.  It shows absolutely nothing about us that we don't already think we know.  That's what everyone expects us to do, even after winning 4 in a row.

Well, this is all contrived for now...but you have to admit it has some pretty strong legs!

db

bobheckler wrote:

dboss wrote:With all do respect, comparing Brad to coach Pop is absurd.  Coach Pop has how many titles?  There is winning and then there is really winning and we should not confuse the two of them.

Looking at tidbits of information without looking at the total body of works  lacks some degree of confidence.

POP is 3rd all time in wins and has  5 championships.

There are 13 current NBA coaches that have a higher winning percentage than Stevens.  Stevens is currently ranked 52nd overall in winning percentage.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/NBA_stats.html

Brad is a good coach but he is not a great coach.  

dboss,

He is also a new coach.  He was never an NBA assistant coach, so he has none of that OJT.  Pop was an assistant coach  for 2 years in GSW and an assistant coach in San Antonio for 4 years.  There's 6 years of NBA coaching experience.

In order to compare Pop's overall career to Brad's we'd have to wait a while.  Brad's been a coach for 8 seasons and Pop's been one for 25 (plus those 6 years as an assistant).  Also, we should probably take into account that Pop had #1 picks, and HOFers, David Robinson and Tim Duncan.  2 of his 5 Championships happened with both of those players together.  So, put another way, 3 of Pop's rings came starting in his 8th year as a head coach and without those two players.  He won 3 with Duncan, but without Robinson.  Tim Duncan was a game changing big.  He has not won any without at least one of those two players.  Even if we compare Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown to David Robinson and Tim Duncan, I don't know if that's fair either, then let's see how Brad does now that those two are starting to get past their respective learning curves.

And as far as Brad's winning % vs other coaches:

Larry Bird has a higher winning %, as a coach.  He coached 3 years.
David Blatt, the poor guy who got run out of Cleveland by LeBron after 1 1/2 seasons, has a higher winning percentage.
Steven Nash is an active coach with a higher winning percentage than Brad.  This is his first season as a head coach and look at the team he was handed.

Here's the active list, of coaches with better winning % than Brad:
Steve Kerr (Curry, Durant and Thompson)
Nick Nurse (3 years coaching, total, had Kawhi.  Kawhi's gone and now look at them)
Pop (Robinson and Duncan for 2; Duncan, Parker, Manu and Kawhi for the other 3)
Steve Nash (Kyrie, Durant, Jordan, Harden)
Tyronn Lue (LeBron, Kyrie and Love; PG13 and Kawhi)
Billy Donovan (Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams at OKC.  Is shit in Chicago now)
Spoelstra (LeBron, DWade and Bosh)
Mike Budenholzer (Giannis.  Look at his record in Atlanta and he had 1 really good year)
Thibs (made the playoffs 1 season out of 3 in Minny.  1 Finals, 2 Semi, 1 1st round in Chicago.  20 years as an assistant coach with 6 different teams.  On his 3rd team as a HC)
Doc (KG, Pierce and Allen; Kawhi, PG13 and DeAndre Jordan; Embiid, Simmons)
Quin Snyder
Stan Van Gundy (are we really comparing the Master of Disaster to Brad?)
Brad Stevens

We have a list here of coaches who had dominating players, and some coaches who didn't have dominating players and didn't have great post-season success (let's see how Quin Snyder and Utah do this year).  Brad has two, still very young, up-and-coming players.  Kyrie was a false prophet and Kemba missed the first 2 months of this season.  Gordon left, but that's because he wanted to be the centerpiece of the team and that wasn't happening with the Js.  It's Gordon's team in Charlotte and that's what he wanted.  So, the team that Danny put together for Brad blew itself up because Kyrie's drama and Gordon's injuries and ambition.  Maybe if Kyrie had resigned Durant would have come to Boston.  What would we be saying about Brad (and Danny) now then?

And there are 337 coaches on that list, total.  If Brad Stevens is 52th all-time that puts him in the 85th percentile.  There are 11 coaches on that list above him that only coached for 1 year.  I don't know why they lost their jobs, but their stellar record is based upon a 1 year snapshot.  Take them out and Brad's 41 out of 326,  87th percentile.  There are another 5 that only coached for 2 years.  Another small sample size.  Take them out and Brad's 36 out of 321, 89%.  I know, all these numbers can put you to sleep, but what's clear is that Brad is damn close to getting an 'A' for his winning % once you start looking at coaches who coached 3 years or more.

Rick Carlisle has a lower winning % than Brad Stevens.  Carlisle has a ring.  Championships are team awards and teams include players as well as coaches.  


Bob


.

Brad is a good coach. I take that back. Brad is a very good coach! The numbers and comparisons that are thrown out here on this thread means very little. It’s a trick bag because there are too many intangibles.
I come from the world of Radio. I programmed radio stations for a living. I know how we can take numbers and make ourselves #1 in midgets 25-27 yrs old and watch sales try and sell it. Arbitron, now Nielsen measures listening and viewing and there is a million different ways to play with the numbers but the bottom line comes down to, are you reaching your targeted listener and do you have more ears than your direct and indirect competitor.
Same applies with the current analysis. Are you winning or losing? Pop coached in a different conference against a different and arguably a superior level of competition. Pop coached against those teams, won some lost some. We’d have to dissect every single game he coached and it still wouldn’t give us a complete picture because you would then have to do that with every other coach as well and as i said, there are way too many intangibles (injuries, scheduling etc.) to come to a realistic conclusion..
I wouldn’t compare Brad to anyone. Nor would I compare Riley to Pop or Spo to Kerr or Larry Brown to Larry Costello:>) . I certainly wouldn’t attempt to compare Red to Phil. Red is far superior imhabo. Screw the analytics/numbers. We all knew how many hats Red wore.
Again, Brad’s a damn good coach.Does he have flaws? Yes, several but unlike a lot of coaches, he is humble, willing and capable of correcting them and getting better. With that being said, he will still piss me/us off because thats one thing coaches always do .