POST GAME CROOKLYN - AWAY

Celtics Wrap: Kyrie Irving’s 40 Points Help Nets End Boston’s Win Streak
Brooklyn defeated Boston, 121-109

NESN by Alexandra Francisco

The Boston Celtics four-game winning streak has come to an end, but their losing streak on the road extends to seven.

Despite the absence of Kevin Durant and Blake Griffin, the Brooklyn Nets pulled out a hard-fought, 121-109 victory to improve to 25-13.

Easy to do with Kyrie Irving tying a career-high 40 points.

Boston is 19-18 with the loss, though Marcus Smart’s return was a bright spot. In his first game back, he had 19 points, two rebounds and two assist off the bench.

Jayson Tatum led Boston’s offense with 31 points and five assists after ramping up in the second half. Theis’s 17 points and 18 rebounds were solid. Brown’s shooting rut continued, but he helped with six assists, four steals and four rebounds.

James Harden had 22 points, 10 rebounds and eight assists. Landry Shamet went off for 18.

Here’s hot it all went down between Boston and Brooklyn:

STARTING FIVE

Despite having Smart back, the Celtics had him come off the bench.

PG: Kemba Walker
SG: Jaylen Brown
C: Daniel Theis
SF: Jayson Tatum
PF: Tristan Thompson

BUILDING A LEAD
As Irving’s successor on the Celtics, it’s reasonable to think Walker came out with a chip on his shoulder in the first quarter, leading Boston with a game-high nine points and an assist, rebound and… block in transition? Cool! He hit 4-of-5 from the field with a 3-pointer in the frame.


Thompson and Smart followed that up with six and five points, respectively, and Boston got out to about a 10-point lead. But Landry Shamet was going off for Brooklyn, matching Walker’s nine points.


With the Nets within three points, the Celtics called a timeout with three minutes left in the first. From there, a 3-pointer from Smart got them going on a run to close out the quarter up 29-23.

KYRIE’S TURN
For critiques both of these defenses have faced this season, points were hard to come by through the first half of the second quarter.


Still it seemed like the only way Shamet was going to miss was if his shots were blocked, so Robert Williams got involved there.


Inside 5:30 in the half, Brooklyn tied it up before a blocked charged called against Walker allowed Harden to make it a 43-41 game.


From there, Irving started to heat up to insinuate a Boston timeout while it trailed 51-45. The pace picked up tremendously. But unfortunately, it was set by the Nets who led by as many as seven in the quarter.


Tatum got going after a slow start to go into the break with 11 points and two assists. Brown shot 1-for-9 from the field for two points, but had three assists and forced three steals.

At halftime, Brooklyn led 58-55 behind Irving’s 18 points.

BACK-AND-FORTH
Brown’s shooting woes didn’t let up, but he desperately needed the 3 he hit at the beginning of the half. Following up a mini-run by Tatum to give Boston a lead back, his co-star wing created a tiny bit of separation.



And all things considered, you could almost hang your hat on Boston entering the fourth quarter down by just two points, because by the end of the third, Irving had a ridiculous 32 points.

Brooklyn led 88-86 with one left to play.

BROOKLYN OPENING IT UP
Boston opened up the final frame with great energy, courtesy of Robert Williams making some big plays.


Still, the Nets went off on a 14-2 run to go up 100-90 with 8:55 left, and two-straight Jeff Green 3s were brutal.

But Tatum came out of a timeout like a madman to score on consecutive possessions and a Theis helped make it a three-point game with a dunk.



Through most of the remainder of the game, Boston breathed down Brooklyn’s neck.


But what are you doing to do when Irving is tying season highs?


UP NEXT
The Celtics get a break from games until Sunday, but will travel to Houston to face the Rockets for an 8 p.m. ET tip.

Hey Brad,

Hope this game finally convinces you that Theis is no rim protector especially in the closing minutes. How about playing Williams the last 5 minutes hmmmm!

112288

112288 wrote:Hey Brad,

Hope this game finally convinces you that Theis is no rim protector especially in the closing minutes.  How about playing Williams the last 5 minutes hmmmm!

112288

How about playing them together more...???

Brad's a bit of a hard head to change and finally honing in on anything as we have seen. Let's hope he's seen enough of the different line ups.

Stat sheet shows we were much more competitive. Only flaws were:

1) 3-ball hoisting and bricking
2) Free throws
3) 4th Quarter

This list is not a long as it usually is. That's a great sign. The first two, with MS coming back and getting him back in the right spots, etc. give that a couple of games. I don't even mind the 4th Quarter drop offs as long as they have the game wrapped up after the 3rd. GSW used to do that ALL the time. Their 4th quarters were irrelevant. Something to consider.

Well, we didn't disappoint our critics. Game was competitive. Was not a blow out again. We still have a lot of work to do. Let's see if we can stay away from the injury bug for the rest of the season. If we have another one of those, it's time to face the music for this season and wrap it up.

db

might be time to face the music now.

we couldn't hang with them without Durant, enough said. If we play them in the playoffs and they are full strength we'll be lucky to win one game, IMO.

we are who we are.

I have to say the game went better than I expected. We stayed close enough through most of the 4th quarter. RWIII and Smart were bright spots.

Brooklyn has built the model of the current trend in NBA teams; they can score enough to bury opponents late in the game, when the opposing defense is wearing down. Conventional wisdom has been defense wins games. Maybe there’s a change in that. Teams like Brooklyn that can at least play some minimal D, but can rotate through 9 or more versatile scorers, can breeze past that old-school thinking by keeping the offensive pressure high.

Add Durant and Griffin to the mix and this team is a genuine title threat. Perhaps beyond that, they may tempt a copycat system to follow their example.

I don't see this as a team failure at all. Our biggest issue may be Jaylen Brown. I cannot remember the exact sequence, but the attitude that JB had, on his face and in his manner, spoke volumes to me.

Jayson Tatum had lingering covid issues that may be decreasing, but what is Jaylen's problem?

I still see this current model of which NYCelt speaks is a backdoor form of league contraction.  That is loading up a couple of teams with all the talent, taking from the poor, etc.

What you are left with after the teams that aren't going to make the playoffs unloading their top talent for a rebuild is those teams waiting for the lottery where their chances of winning big are about as likely as the real lotteries across the country for you and me.  You can see it with teams like Sacramento, Charlotte, Washington, Cavaliers, Timberwolves, etc.  These teams are never going to win (with the one exception/anomaly CLE) anything and are the whipping boy for picking the #1 Draft pick and after squandering 7-8 years and not surrounding that player with help (Anthony Davis, for current example, CLE as a past example with LeBron) that bolt to a contender.  

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Poor get squeezed out, and the Playoffs can be sensibly be reduced to a Final Four. For the poor, it's a fools paradise. They are being led down the primrose path, Grace. Hey!! Shut up!! Quicherbitchin!! You get the #1 Pick in the Draft!!! (As I read back...Oops. Might have unintentionally stepped over another broader line without knowing it. But I digress.)

You can't continue on this cycle and not have some teams file for bankruptcy, especially this year with COVID...Where's all the money coming from?!!  Half of your revenue is not even showing up in the form of fans and butts in the seats.  Some of these teams have to be hemorrhaging money like no tomorrow.  Heck, most if not all.  But it's the owners calling the shots so they know what they're doing.    

I know the league buys these bankrupt teams up until another entrepreneur shows up thinking they've got all the answers and tries again, but at some point someone has to say enough is enough.  "I'm blowing through my wealth like a leaf blower for what now amounts to a one-shot/one year highly leveraged swing (BKN) then back to the bottom of the league for eternity for a stab at what?  One NBA title?  And no guarantees?  (Ask MIL)  BFD.  I've got far more productive things as a ga-billionaire to do with my money that actually got me to where I am that I will continue to do without an NBA team and all this crap.  Check please!!"

Something like that...

db

No Durant, no problem...for them.

Tatum started off slow but came on.  He finished with 31 points on 13-22, 3-7 from 3.  So, lots of points on efficient shooting.  With Smart back he wasn't trying to run the offense too, so his assist and turnover counts went down to 3 and 2, which is around where they should be.

We took 91 fgas.  Jaylen Brown took 23 of them.  That's 25%.  You cannot take a quarter of your team's fgas and shoot 5-23, 21.7%, and think you're helping your team by continuing to bomb away.  Short-term memory loss is fine for a shooter but not complete amnesia.  He also had 4 turnovers.  His decision making was atrocious.  His defense wasn't good either, Shamet and Harris were getting open looks.  Harris got an easy layup at the half, that was Jaylen's man.  A complete shit show from Jaylen Brown as far as I am concerned.  I'm sooo glad he had fun in his home town of Atlanta (time to wake up and smell the sarcasm).  What's particularly frustrating to me is that I was providing him with cover over the last week or two by pointing out how dead tired he looked.  He didn't look tired last night, he looked refreshed, he just looked bad.  

The Time Lord with 6 blocks in 17 minutes.  He also had a sequence where he got the ball out near the frito line with 5 seconds on the clock.  He had the awareness that Time was not on his side, so he did a dribble across the lane and threw up a hook shot.  It didn't go in, it was a bit wild even, but that was very good clock awareness by The Time Lord and that's very nice to see.  Like Thompson, his ft% is in the 60s.  If he wants to be on the floor during clutch time, and the rest of his game is saying he should be, he needs to get that number up into the 70s.  With time running out and every possession counts you cannot afford to have like what we got from Thompson last night, going 0-4 from the line total.  Thompson's fritos weren't in clutch time but would you want him on the line with a minute left in a close game?  Hell no, right?  Well, Williams needs to address that too.  Otherwise, he's coming along very nicely indeed.  He said before the season he felt he was ready to take a step up.  We didn't see it in the early months but we're seeing it now.

The other Williams had a really good game too.  No points for Grant, but 5 rebounds and some very physical play, he grabbed an offensive rebound among 3 Nets and just ripped it away from them and got it out to...Jaylen.  Jaylen waited for Grant to come out to set a pick and then proceeded to lose the dribble.  Grant got a Tommy Point for going to the floor and securing a jump ball.  I cannot remember who won the jump but at least Grant gave us a chance, it would have been another Brown turnover if he hadn't.  Solid work by GWill last night.

Theis with a great game.  17 points on 7-10 and 8 rebounds.

Walker started out hot and then went cold.  11 points and 1-7 from 3.

Smart has been out for 5-6 weeks and looked like he hadn't missed a day.

They shot 42% from 3.  Irving was 5-8 but Landry Shamet really hurt us badly.  He was 6-9 from 3.  He's shooting 37.4% from 3 this season but he goes off for 66% against us.  When you think about that this game could have been a lot closer if he just shot even 4-9.  There's 6 points shaved off of a 12 point loss and 2 possession games are coached very differently in the last few minutes than 4 possession games.

They had no Durant, no Blake Griffin.  That team is ridiculously stacked.  As I have said before I am done with "youth movements".  They're feel-good Cinderella stories but Cinderella is a fairy tale.  If you build it they will come.  Kyrie didn't want to be "the man" here in Boston and he had a problem with the youth not being ready for Prime Time.  I don't know if he was being fair, I don't know if he's was just being Flat Earth Flakey Man but he was in Cleveland when LeBron was in Miami and he didn't like it.  LeBron went back to Cleveland, he won a Championship and then thought he could be "the man" somewhere else.  Now he's in Brooklyn and he's not "the man".  He's got Durant, which he made damn sure was going to happen before he pulled the trigger to sign there, and now he has Harden.  He told Harden "you're the point guard, I'm the scorer".  Here, in Boston, he was expected to be both, which is what everybody thought he wanted, he wanted to be "the man", right?  But he couldn't handle all that it entailed including the emotional leadership part.

I am starting to question how good it is to have both Js and have our 3rd star being a non-point guard guard in a point guard's body (try saying that 3X fast!).  Trading for Harrison Barnes, in my opinion, will just give us 3 Js, in essence.  Danny needs to step back from the wing buffet table and reconsider the balance of this team, both from quality at numerous positions as well as age.  In my opinion we need more floor generals and a dominating big.  Pritchard is rookie.  He's an overachieving rookie, but he's a rookie.  Still, he has an excellent 2-man game with RWill.  He takes his man off the dribble, gets him on his back and throws lobs to Rob.  Perfect.  We need more of that.  Not just more Pritchard and RWill, we need more penetrators and rim rockers.  Teague is no floor general, as we saw over the last month and a half.  Kemba isn't either.  We have three bigs, none of which really can create their own offense.  Thompson is Mr. Cleanup.  Theis and RWill are rim rockers and Theis is a catch-and-shoot threat but there's no low post game among them to speak of.  You wouldn't drop the ball down into the low blocks to any of them and say "do your thing".  That's the difference between what we have and Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis and others.  They can all create down low and, because they are a threat with the ball down low, that forces defensive changes that a coach can take advantage of.

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401307312


Bob

.

gyso wrote:I don't see this as a team failure at all.  Our biggest issue may be Jaylen Brown.  I cannot remember the exact sequence, but the attitude that JB had, on his face and in his manner, spoke volumes to me.  

Jayson Tatum had lingering covid issues that may be decreasing, but what is Jaylen's problem?

I know, shocking how much his game has dropped, and this after a rest, it’s a very big concern going forward. To me he still looked tired, we have no shot in playoffs if this is what we are gonna get from him. I don’t believe in the vegan diet, it’s good for a stretch to detox, but for everyday year after year, that diet lacks amino acids which are the building block of muscle/strength.

dbrown4 wrote:I still see this current model of which NYCelt speaks is a backdoor form of league contraction.  That is loading up a couple of teams with all the talent, taking from the poor, etc.

What you are left with after the teams that aren't going to make the playoffs unloading their top talent for a rebuild is those teams waiting for the lottery where their chances of winning big are about as likely as the real lotteries across the country for you and me.  You can see it with teams like Sacramento, Charlotte, Washington, Cavaliers, Timberwolves, etc.  These teams are never going to win (with the one exception/anomaly CLE) anything and are the whipping boy for picking the #1 Draft pick and after squandering 7-8 years and not surrounding that player with help (Anthony Davis, for current example, CLE as a past example with LeBron) that bolt to a contender.  

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Poor get squeezed out, and the Playoffs can be sensibly be reduced to a Final Four.  For the poor, it's a fools paradise.  They are being led down the primrose path, Grace.  Hey!!  Shut up!!  Quicherbitchin!!  You get the #1 Pick in the Draft!!!  (As I read back...Oops.  Might have unintentionally stepped over another broader line without knowing it.  But I digress.)  

You can't continue on this cycle and not have some teams file for bankruptcy, especially this year with COVID...Where's all the money coming from?!!  Half of your revenue is not even showing up in the form of fans and butts in the seats.  Some of these teams have to be hemorrhaging money like no tomorrow.  Heck, most if not all.  But it's the owners calling the shots so they know what they're doing.    

I know the league buys these bankrupt teams up until another entrepreneur shows up thinking they've got all the answers and tries again, but at some point someone has to say enough is enough.  "I'm blowing through my wealth like a leaf blower for what now amounts to a one-shot/one year highly leveraged swing (BKN) then back to the bottom of the league for eternity for a stab at what?  One NBA title?  And no guarantees?  (Ask MIL)  BFD.  I've got far more productive things as a ga-billionaire to do with my money that actually got me to where I am that I will continue to do without an NBA team and all this crap.  Check please!!"

Something like that...

db

Agreed, there’s too many teams and crappy teams because the talent gets so deluded, please no more expansion....

I totally agree with what you say about the balance of the team BobH.   Something BIG needs to be done, probably in this off season.  I think we are close, but as presently constituted we are not quite at the top echelon of teams with a realistic chance of winning a title.  I believe we would be well served to trade one of Jason or Jaylen for a young dominant ball handler or big.

“I am starting to question how good it is to have both Js and have our 3rd star being a non-point guard guard in a point guard's body (try saying that 3X fast!).  Trading for Harrison Barnes, in my opinion, will just give us 3 Js, in essence.  Danny needs to step back from the wing buffet table and reconsider the balance of this team, both from quality at numerous positions as well as age.  In my opinion we need more floor generals and a dominating big.”

gyso wrote:I don't see this as a team failure at all.  Our biggest issue may be Jaylen Brown.  I cannot remember the exact sequence, but the attitude that JB had, on his face and in his manner, spoke volumes to me.  

Jayson Tatum had lingering covid issues that may be decreasing, but what is Jaylen's problem?

I am not a facial expression expert but if I was attempting to read the facial expression on Jaylen's mug I would say it reflected an acknowledgement by him that he sucked and he knew that he sucked.    What is going on with him is a very good question.  I think it may have several layers to it.   I will just throw out a few possibilities with the understanding that everything I say is purely speculative and perception based.

He is less than 100% physically.
He is forcing things at times.
He is experiencing some technical degradation that impacts his shooting.
He is trying too hard to be a prime time scorer.
He is struggling to adjust to a change in his utilization since Walker returned.
He is being a bit selfish because of his unwillingness to be a 2nd or 3rd guy
He is not having indepth one on one with his coach.

My expectations for the Celtics were low.  just play hard.

I thought that they did that.  This was a game we should have and could have won.  With 4 minutes left it is a one possession contest.

The main reason why we lost was because Jaylen Brown missed 18 out of his 23 FGA.    The second reason was because Kemba Walker got smoked by kyrie Irving in terms of the productivity gap.  Reason #3 was because of the coach.

I was pleased with the return of Marcus Smart who played very well.

Two coaching related issues.  Coach should have gone back to RW instead of DT earlier in the 4th.  Coach should have told Jaylen to stop attempting 3 point shots.  (3/12)  Get to the rim or pass the basketball.  

This game should give us ample acknowledgement that the Celtics will not be able to compete against the Nets unless they upgrade their roster.  

In addition, the talent gap is so great that it will take more then one move.

Brad Stevens remains a coach with no clue.  He will never find consistency from Semi or Grant.  Like I said there is no good way to maximize their limited production by splitting time.  

I do not care if we have to lose a game because the coach sat a key guy on the bench that was not helping us win a game. (Jaylen, Jayson, Kemba, or anybody)

Rob Williams continues to be a bright spot on this team.  He played 17 minutes and once again that is just not enough minutes for him.

I remain in the camp that says trade Kemba Walker.  Yes he is a better fit than KI but we are not taking home the trophy.  It was just a bad Danny Ainge decision to sign him.

I have really lost my objectivity with this team.  I am pretty much through with Danny and with Brad.  I am ready for a change.  

I expect things to go along as they are and I will continue to watch our guys play.

dboss wrote:

gyso wrote:I don't see this as a team failure at all.  Our biggest issue may be Jaylen Brown.  I cannot remember the exact sequence, but the attitude that JB had, on his face and in his manner, spoke volumes to me.  

Jayson Tatum had lingering covid issues that may be decreasing, but what is Jaylen's problem?

I am not a facial expression expert but if I was attempting to read the facial expression on Jaylen's mug I would say it reflected an acknowledgement by him that he sucked and he knew that he sucked.    What is going on with him is a very good question.  I think it may have several layers to it.   I will just throw out a few possibilities with the understanding that everything I say is purely speculative and perception based.

He is less than 100% physically.
He is forcing things at times.
He is experiencing some technical degradation that impacts his shooting.
He is trying too hard to be a prime time scorer.
He is struggling to adjust to a change in his utilization since Walker returned.
He is being a bit selfish because of his unwillingness to be a 2nd or 3rd guy
He is not having indepth one on one with his coach.

The coaching could be more creative, we don’t run enough plays with either J moving/cutting around baseline without the ball to get easy baskets. So many damn assistant coaches on the sideline and this offense the opposition has figured out.

bobc33 wrote:I totally agree with what you say about the balance of the team BobH.   Something BIG needs to be done, probably in this off season.  I think we are close, but as presently constituted we are not quite at the top echelon of teams with a realistic chance of winning a title.  I believe we would be well served to trade one of Jason or Jaylen for a young dominant ball handler or big.

“I am starting to question how good it is to have both Js and have our 3rd star being a non-point guard guard in a point guard's body (try saying that 3X fast!).  Trading for Harrison Barnes, in my opinion, will just give us 3 Js, in essence.  Danny needs to step back from the wing buffet table and reconsider the balance of this team, both from quality at numerous positions as well as age.  In my opinion we need more floor generals and a dominating big.”

I wondered on another thread if a Brown for Porzingis deal could be worked out. I'm not sure if that would be a good idea or not myself, but if you are right it would certainly take care of that issue.

my thoughts were something like

Brown
Thompson
next years first

for

Porzingis
Richardson

Richardson has a player option Next year though, so I'd want him to opt in for sure to do that deal myself.

dbrown4 wrote:I still see this current model of which NYCelt speaks is a backdoor form of league contraction.  That is loading up a couple of teams with all the talent, taking from the poor, etc.
db

Interesting theory. It may hold up well, too. Especially when you consider it has long been held that going into any season, there are usually no more than four teams with a real shot at a title.

dbrown4 wrote:I still see this current model of which NYCelt speaks is a backdoor form of league contraction.  That is loading up a couple of teams with all the talent, taking from the poor, etc.

What you are left with after the teams that aren't going to make the playoffs unloading their top talent for a rebuild is those teams waiting for the lottery where their chances of winning big are about as likely as the real lotteries across the country for you and me.  You can see it with teams like Sacramento, Charlotte, Washington, Cavaliers, Timberwolves, etc.  These teams are never going to win (with the one exception/anomaly CLE) anything and are the whipping boy for picking the #1 Draft pick and after squandering 7-8 years and not surrounding that player with help (Anthony Davis, for current example, CLE as a past example with LeBron) that bolt to a contender.  

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  Poor get squeezed out, and the Playoffs can be sensibly be reduced to a Final Four.  For the poor, it's a fools paradise.  They are being led down the primrose path, Grace.  Hey!!  Shut up!!  Quicherbitchin!!  You get the #1 Pick in the Draft!!!  (As I read back...Oops.  Might have unintentionally stepped over another broader line without knowing it.  But I digress.)  

You can't continue on this cycle and not have some teams file for bankruptcy, especially this year with COVID...Where's all the money coming from?!!  Half of your revenue is not even showing up in the form of fans and butts in the seats.  Some of these teams have to be hemorrhaging money like no tomorrow.  Heck, most if not all.  But it's the owners calling the shots so they know what they're doing.    

I know the league buys these bankrupt teams up until another entrepreneur shows up thinking they've got all the answers and tries again, but at some point someone has to say enough is enough.  "I'm blowing through my wealth like a leaf blower for what now amounts to a one-shot/one year highly leveraged swing (BKN) then back to the bottom of the league for eternity for a stab at what?  One NBA title?  And no guarantees?  (Ask MIL)  BFD.  I've got far more productive things as a ga-billionaire to do with my money that actually got me to where I am that I will continue to do without an NBA team and all this crap.  Check please!!"

Something like that...

db

db  

I did not get the same take from NYCelt post.  I thought the model he was talking about deals with how there seems to be a trend towards mainly offensive minded basketball with defense being less and less important.  

Before the pandemic hit there was talk about expansion (South of the boarder for example.)  Teams got big money.  If they have a lot of high salaried contracts and are not winning they will find ways to move those contracts.  The teams themselves are not starving.  The Celtics did not resign AH or GH.  They could have but decided not to.

There is a hard cap in place so no team has unlimited  ability to spend money.

No teams qualifies for the stimulus.   If they run it on the cheap, revenue from tax payor teams is distributed.  

There really is no such thing as poor teams.   Teams have more or better players than others and the better players migrate over to the better teams.  

Like the Nets who are building a juggernaut.

I do believe that they have the best offensive talent EVER.   Better than GSW?  Yeah

What annoys me the most is that there is clearly something wrong with this team from day 1, but still Danny Ainge as I have been harping on for MONTHs now will not do a thing to push for a change. He and management have quite publicly hinted that this season is "lost" already.

What would that do to the motivation of your players I wonder... Players that you took up from draft and taught that winning matters and it requires sacrifices sometimes. Like learning to play defense before you are allowed more minutes... Learning to absorb and thrive into a lesser role because we want to get Gordon Hayward up to speed faster... And now it is time that maybe you need to sacrifice or put something on the line for the team to win, but instead you perhaps show them that it is just business, why try now, there is next year... This is part of the "handbook of how to lose the trust of the players in your organization" and I would expect more retrospective players to be hit by that first.

Now this does not absolve terrible play from JB or JT or anyone really. I believe there are other major issues in the locker room, with the coach and system, with the trust the players have for the system and with the players themselves.

The part I described above is just the one that ticks me off the most.

Also I cannot make myself watch the replay of this game... I got to minute 5... barely. I do not enjoy watching the Celtics this year. They just play boring, pointless basketball on offense and DO NOT defend.

Imagine after years of salivating how we have 2 studs to lead us, the first time they are actually "given the reins" we get THIS SEASON. It is extremely disheartening for me as a fan. And I believe it is extremely damaging for Danny Ainge's credibility and reputation, for Brad Stevens' credibility and reputation and most sadly to me it is damaging for the credibility and reputation of JT and JB as stars in this league.

If this is allowed to fester all season it will lead to a divergence from the dream of ever getting a championship with JB and JT in green.

PS: I know it is meant well, but Porzingis for JB is not a fair value trade even if Porzingis could stay healthy for more than several games at a time.

kdp59 wrote:might be time to face the music now.

we couldn't hang with them without Durant, enough said. If we play them in the playoffs and they are full strength we'll be lucky to win one game, IMO.

we are who we are.

Unless Danny Ray makes a move which we know he won’t and if he does it will be a weak one which he's only capable of doing nowadays because he himself is weak thus the team is becoming weaker. We’ve gone from stacked to whacked.

dboss wrote:

gyso wrote:I don't see this as a team failure at all.  Our biggest issue may be Jaylen Brown.  I cannot remember the exact sequence, but the attitude that JB had, on his face and in his manner, spoke volumes to me.  

Jayson Tatum had lingering covid issues that may be decreasing, but what is Jaylen's problem?

I am not a facial expression expert but if I was attempting to read the facial expression on Jaylen's mug I would say it reflected an acknowledgement by him that he sucked and he knew that he sucked.    What is going on with him is a very good question.  I think it may have several layers to it.   I will just throw out a few possibilities with the understanding that everything I say is purely speculative and perception based.

He is less than 100% physically.
He is forcing things at times.
He is experiencing some technical degradation that impacts his shooting.
He is trying too hard to be a prime time scorer.
He is struggling to adjust to a change in his utilization since Walker returned.
He is being a bit selfish because of his unwillingness to be a 2nd or 3rd guy
He is not having indepth one on one with his coach.

Maybe all of the above or none of the above. He’s going through something but we’ve all seen what he’s capable of.
A few more stinkers and half this board will be suggesting that Danny Ray trades him, Yup, the same folks that didn’t want him included in a Harden trade. Wait, maybe that’s what’s bothering him!? Leave him be. He’ll be fine but nobody on this team is UNTOUCHABLE or a KEEPER.

dboss,

Great points. The underlying assumption for years, probably since inception, in the NBA is that everybody can score. So when you get to the end, the NBA Finals, why are those two teams there and all the rest are watching form home? What differentiates them from all the rest?

We are fortunate in the NBA that because of the grueling 7 game series and having to beat a team 4 times to move on, usually the 2 best teams are left standing. We will never have an 8th seed winning the title like you occasionally see in baseball and hockey.

The general conclusion has been defense. We say it ourselves here, Defense Wins Championships.

What it looks like the teams/owners are now trying to do is change the landscape a bit and challenging the initial assumption above. Yes, everyone can score, so the points only are, on average, even across the league. Everybody can score at this level. But now the thinking seems to be what if you cram more points into one or just a few teams. BKN is the perfect example of this. For lack of a better term, let's call them a superteam.

We know these guys can score, so just let them shoot the lights out and when the clock runs out, we should have more points than the other team most of the time.

Just like with the advent of shooting more 3's because statistically and probabilistically, (I know, not a word but it says what I want it to say!!) a 3-point shot is worth more than a standard 2 point shot that is not a dunk or layup. So jack up more 3's as this will increase your total points over 48 minutes on average.

What you have pointed out is correct. Eventually, BKN is going to run out of one or two things...Money or a title. Caps keep teams from spending whatever they want.

The only other thing left no one has considered is speeding up your possessions. Run your opponent out of the gym, in essence. Create more possession by not running the shot clock down. That will add more points, on average, to your final score.

But it does create a culture of the haves and have nots as there are quite a few teams who year in and year out can't seem to ever get it together and put a decent team on the floor. Eventually those teams are sold to another owner, group, get new ideas, etc. And the league goes on.

For every superteam created, there is another team equal and opposite created. A bottom feeder, if you will. If the league can find a way to keep that team from folding up, the league will either tread water or continue to expand. More power to them!

As for us and our leadership, Danny's not building this team that way. He's still workin' it old school. Will that thinking/strategy still work in today's newfangled league? Well, it looks a little wobbly at this point, even with us doing ok against BKN but still losing for the 3rd straight time rather handily. The wall around the sandbox is getting a little higher everyday and we're not getting any invitations or busting through it just yet. That's what the 2nd half of the season will reveal.

I just haven't seen to date a model described like that work consistently. I think of of the Jumpy Gathers team (was that Loyola Marymount or St. Mary's?) that was run and gun to put up more points via more possessions. I believe there was a Sacramento team that scored a lot of points and half-assed it through the playoffs many years but never won a title. We haven't heard from them since.

The last thing I want the league to resemble is an All-Star Game night in and night out. But that's just me. We as the fans are just left to decide whether to pay and watch or not.

db

dboss wrote:My expectations for the Celtics were low.  just play hard.

I thought that they did that.  This was a game we should have and could have won.  With 4 minutes left it is a one possession contest.

The main reason why we lost was because Jaylen Brown missed 18 out of his 23 FGA.    The second reason was because Kemba Walker got smoked by kyrie Irving in terms of the productivity gap.  Reason #3 was because of the coach.

I was pleased with the return of Marcus Smart who played very well.

Two coaching related issues.  Coach should have gone back to RW instead of DT earlier in the 4th.  Coach should have told Jaylen to stop attempting 3 point shots.  (3/12)  Get to the rim or pass the basketball.  

This game should give us ample acknowledgement that the Celtics will not be able to compete against the Nets unless they upgrade their roster.  

In addition, the talent gap is so great that it will take more then one move.

Brad Stevens remains a coach with no clue.  He will never find consistency from Semi or Grant.  Like I said there is no good way to maximize their limited production by splitting time.  

I do not care if we have to lose a game because the coach sat a key guy on the bench that was not helping us win a game. (Jaylen, Jayson, Kemba, or anybody)

Rob Williams continues to be a bright spot on this team.  He played 17 minutes and once again that is just not enough minutes for him.

I remain in the camp that says trade Kemba Walker.  Yes he is a better fit than KI but we are not taking home the trophy.  It was just a bad Danny Ainge decision to sign him.

I have really lost my objectivity with this team.  I am pretty much through with Danny and with Brad.  I am ready for a change.  

I expect things to go along as they are and I will continue to watch our guys play.

I think you’re being very objective dboss. You’re refusing to drink the green Kool aide. You now recognize that Danny is an idiot whereas before you were giving him the benefit of the doubt. I did too. But no longer. There’s a GM in Philly who called this an arms race and it is. We are losing the arms race because dumbass Danny Ray goes out and gets no lift Thompson and break killer #55 but tells us Myles Turner is not good enough. Meanwhile his coach plays Rob 17 minutes against the Nets. This team currently constructed will not win a single game against the Nets. The Nets, a team we fleeced and took all their draft picks and laughed our asses off at. They may win a title before we do. Thanks Danny, you friggin MOron.

Vankisa wrote:What annoys me the most is that there is clearly something wrong with this team from day 1, but still Danny Ainge as I have been harping on for MONTHs now will not do a thing to push for a change. He and management have quite publicly hinted that this season is "lost" already.

What would that do to the motivation of your players I wonder... Players that you took up from draft and taught that winning matters and it requires sacrifices sometimes. Like learning to play defense before you are allowed more minutes... Learning to absorb and thrive into a lesser role because we want to get Gordon Hayward up to speed faster... And now it is time that maybe you need to sacrifice or put something on the line for the team to win, but instead you perhaps show them that it is just business, why try now, there is next year... This is part of the "handbook of how to lose the trust of the players in your organization" and I would expect more retrospective players to be hit by that first.

Now this does not absolve terrible play from JB or JT or anyone really. I believe there are other major issues in the locker room, with the coach and system, with the trust the players have for the system and with the players themselves.

The part I described above is just the one that ticks me off the most.

When key players opt to go elsewhere in consecutive years something within the org is wrong. Something in the milk ain’t clean.